I will not give up my seat on this bus!!!

[Perky]

I was born a democrat, I have never strayed from my family's strong democratic heritage. When I was Born a second time it re-enforced my democratic roots rather than put them at risk.

I am deeply offended by the the constant undertone on DU regarding Christians as a group. I readily agree are Pharisaical elements within Christianity. I contend with them every week.

I don't bash people on DU over the head with my Bible or tell anyone here that they are going to Hell. But certain elements on DU are more than willing to tell the whole lot of Christians that precise thing.

It is as offensive and as hypocritical and as shameful as those idiots on the right. But the sadder truth is that with every christian stereotype some element of DU comes up it only serves to reinforce the view of both independent and republican voters that democrats are anti-religion. We are supposed to be the party of the big tent...the party of tolerance... but the level of intolerance is stunning at times. Particularly on a site that so readily criticizes the right for trying to silence those that oppose them.

I will be God-damned, if I am going to sit on my hands while some elements on DU are going to contend as the Republicans do that you can not be both a Christan and a democrat at the same time.

Christians are not responsible for the flooding. I can assure you that the full gamut of the Christan community form the Quakers to the catholics and from the southern Baptists to the Assembly of God. CHristians in every church in this country grieve deeply are praying and donating considerable time and money and would gladly open their homes to the victims of this tragedy and this travesty.. I dare say say that many christian are doing more then many of the liberals on this site who have nothing better to do than to bash anyone who danes to profess the name of Jesus CHrist as their Lord and Savior. We are motivate to provide all the support we can based not on our politics but because of our faith. All of us...no of course not...but to suggest that we do not care as a group is dull-witted and obscenely arrogant.

So for the love of God...we did not create the flooding and we are pitching in more tangible support than you can possibly (apparently) fathom..so get of our collective back about it.

If some of the things said about Christan's on this site were said about Jews. you would immediately call for the person to be banned for being an anti-Semite. Not so with Christians we are fair game.

No I am not a freeper, I am a regular contributor to DU. and No I do not feel the least bit persecuted....I am, just sick to death of insulting and asinine belligerence against Christianity.

If you think you have the moral right to force me to sit in the back row of this bus solely because I have faith in a loving and unseen God then then you are as much a fascist as those on the far right.

I have earned my right to sit up front and by God I intend to do so, This is my party too and you cant tell me that there is no room for me.

Get off our backs already!!!

[aquart]

1. They do say rotten things about Jews. You just haven't noticed.

Being a Jew, I have.

[Mairead]

97. 'sfunny, I don't think I've ever seen anything bad said about Jews

do you have a cite? If not, perhaps a retraction is in order?

[Toots]

110. You must be kidding

For a while it was forbidden to even talk about the Israeli/Palestinian Crisis on these boards and an Israeli forum was created to keep things off the main boards and you never saw anything???????

[Mairead]

152. No, not kidding: "Israeli" is not a synonym for "Jew"

I realise the Likud and its fellow-travellers do their best to equate the two, but in fact they are not the same.

[struggle4progress]

121. self-delete

[Behind the Aegis]

134. perhaps you missed this thread...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3222185#3222185

Not all the remarks were anti-Semitic, but some were. So, perhaps a retraction IS in order.

[Mairead]

153. You're right, I missed the thread.

And no, I'm not going to retract without having seen the deleted posts. If you can point me at some live anti-Jewish (not anti-Israeli or anti-Zionist) posts by real members of DU, then I'll retract.

[Behind the Aegis]

155. Good moderators

There is a reason I can't give you "live" links because all it would say is "deleted message." But, just because you claim you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it isn't out there.

[kdmorris]

2. I must have missed something

I've been here a lot lately and I haven't seen anything like that. There's a difference between a Christian who follows the teachings of Jesus and a Christian that follows the teachings of Pat Robertson.

As far as I can tell, people try very hard to make the distinction between the two.

[Perky]

3. yeah well watch the flaming that is about to begin.

[kdmorris]

6. I truly hope not

But will keep my eyes open.

[Perky]

12. Here's one I just found.

If someone says they are a CHristian I turn and run like hell in the other direction! I know that they are either going to lie, cheat or steal, and maybe all three in a short period of time.

Yikes they are despicable!

What happened to the Jesus thought of "love God with all your heart and that you love your neighbor as you love yourself". As I read this, I see that the real problem is that they (Christians) don't love themselves. In fact it seems they loathe themselves and show the entire planet their hatred. They are withered stunted husks of humans whose shriveled hearts don't even pump enough blood to cleanse their brains. Pathetic.

[kdmorris]

21. Like I said...

I must have missed something. I'm very sorry. I don't believe as you do, but I support you. And I do differentiate between a RW Fundamentalist Christian and a Progressive Christian.

It's about the same as the difference between a "regular" Muslim and Osama Bin Laden.

[kestrel91316]

34. Link??

[Perky]

91. look around you will find it

I don't want to start a pissing match with anyone specifically but the comment is just mean spiritied

I may start a Perky's hall of shame though and leave out the names

[Mairead]

154. Have you ever heard the dictum

"Don't tell me you follow the Christ, let me discover it in the way you live your life."?

I'm sure that's a paraphrase rather than a quote, but it's an accurate one. Whenever I hear people claim to be christian, I always think of Mark Twain's 'Letter from the Recording Angel', and his 'War Prayer'.

[Eric J in MN]

4. Can you provide one link to a thread which offended you? nt

nt

[RevCheesehead]

15. Sure - read some of the comments here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4614606&mesg_id=4614606

[Splatter Phoenix]

25. What, you mean...

"I hate THESE Christians! I wish the good ones would stand up to them....
These people aren't Christians, they're a disgrace. They are giving all Christians a bad name."

Jeez. Listen, okay, it's not your fault these fundie bastards hijacked your religion, but Xianity is over 85% of the religion practiced in America as a whole. I really don't know if you should complain.

Obviously you have the right to, but whether or not you're truly being oppressed is doubtful to me.

[RevCheesehead]

33. Keep reading.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4614606&mesg_id=4615879

And I never used the word oppressed, OK?

[Splatter Phoenix]

37. Okay. v.v

But you used that example before, which is why I didn't cite it. Anything else, or is that it?

[RevCheesehead]

40. I did? Where?

[Splatter Phoenix]

42. Oh! Sorry!

My mistake, that was perky. Terribly sorry. x_X

[Misunderestimator]

115. I don't find that post offensive... in fact, I agree with it for the most

part...

My personal experience with Christians has been such that I can assume someone who is obviously Christian is going to be a hypocrite, judge me, insult me or proselytize to me. Therefore, I would turn and run the other way.

The last paragraph is that poster's personal opinion. Making one person's opinion the basis for a rant like this is silly.

Christians I respect and admire wouldn't be wearing their religion so obviously that I would know on them approaching me that they are Christians. Christianity is a secondary attribute of the Christian friends I have... They are human beings first.

[Prodemsouth]

98. Yeah God's left wing is not standing up to God's right wing.

All of the counter balance Christian or Inner Faith Groups that should be countering the Christan right are weak and lame. They never get in the face of the right - their response is always something that sounds like it is to appear in a high brow political magazine. They need to be more blunt and aggressive like the Christan Right- nobody is calling for violence just speak like you have something to say and don't talk like your talking to only Phds. They need to get more grass roots and bring home lower and middle income Americans back with Christ teachings and counter the right wing perverted mixture of social Darwinism and Fire and Brimstone. Non right wing Christians need to look at Moderate or Liberal Muslims they were not as aggressive and look at what happened to their countries

[intheflow]

122. That is not true.

But like the political left, we on the religious left have a hard time getting our message out to the general public. Because we don't believe in proselytizing, we don't have scores of radio and tv shows in place. We are rarely called on to interview on news programs.

[tavalon]

126. Very good point, that one!

[Eric J in MN]

30. That thread is against a rightwing radio show, not all Christians (nt)

nt

[Kire]

143. ^bait

waiting for the switch

[Hello_Kitty]

5. Speaking as one atheist on this board

I'd just like to say how much I appreciate progressive Christians. I may not share your beliefs but I feel that you are the bridge to those on the Right who have been sold a false faith by the neo-cons through their televangelist mullahs. They certainly won't listen to me, that's for sure. That said, I truly hope that a few bad experiences will not sour you to DU as a whole.

[StellaBlue]

57. Agree!!!!!

I am an athiest, but I am heartened and filled with hope when I meet or hear of 'progressive' Christians!!!!!!!!!!!!! Whether they are UMC or UU or just plain old liberal Catholics!

People for PEACE are all in this together - we are all in this together!!!!!

[BeTheChange]

7. I feel the same way...

It's good to vent sometimes. The fact is, this is a predominantly nonreligious or antireligious membership.. and it makes me sad that so many of them have been hurt so much by religion, because it shouldnt be this way.

Just turn the other cheek and hope that you can help put a dent in their stereotypes.

Much Agape.

:hug:

[erinlough]

8. Why would you want to change what I believe?

I have no interest in changing what you believe or denigrating it in any way by suggesting that you came upon your belief system by some damaging event.

[Perky]

13. I am not trying to evangelize anybody on this site.

I am just tired of the arrogant and dull-witted fascists who call themselves liberal anf think they have every right to viillify those who think differently about anything.

[erinlough]

17. I wasn't replying to your post, sorry if you misunderstood. n/t

[Misunderestimator]

116. Arrogant and dull-witted fascists would be tombstoned here...

so who are you attacking with that post?

[BeTheChange]

29. Why would you insist on holding so strongly onto your stereotypes about...

Christians that you feel threatened that Id like to put a dent in them. I never said I wanted to evangelize you.

I do believe a great deal of people who show such venom against Christians on these boards have encountered hypocrits and acts that were done by people claiming to be Christian but arent very Christ like. I believe that because people reference horrible actions as basis of their opinion time and time again.

Or are you telling me that hate and frustration directed towards Christians is just for the heck of it? Sorry, that doesnt compute to me. I choose to believe for the most part people act atleast in some semirational way. It's not the agnostics for the most part that are attacking Christianity or people who dont have tales about their direct interation with the church.

[erinlough]

59. I don't have stereotypes about Christians

what in my post made you assume that? I was responding to the fact that you expressed your concern that damage had caused many to dislike Christians. That infers to me that anyone who isn't a Christian is damaged. I probably shouldn't have made that jump. I never have posted inflamatory things about Christians, I am not one, but I respect your right to be what you want to be.

[BeTheChange]

64. I didnt mean damage..

in that way...I meant that people had done bad things in the name of God and that had damaged people's opinions of Christianity. I didnt mean they were damaged people.

Im sorry if I didnt convey that completely.

[erinlough]

66. Thanks for sticking with me on this and clarifying

now I get it! :)

[BeTheChange]

69. Im reminded of a song by Dar Williams

Christians and Pagans
Amber called her uncle, said were up here for the holiday,

Jane and I were having solstice, now we need a place to stay.

And her christ-loving uncle watched his wife hang mary on a tree,

He watched his song hang candy canes all made with red dye number three.

He told his niece, its christmas eve, I know our life is not your style,

She said, christmas is like solstice, and we miss you and its been awhile,



So the christians and the pagans sat together at the table,

Finding faith and common ground the best that they were able,

And just before the meal was served, hands were held and prayers were said,

Sending hope for peace on earth to all their gods and goddesses.



The food was great, the tree plugged in, the meal had gone without a hitch,

Till timmy turned to amber and said, is it true that youre a wtich?

His mom jumped up and said, the pies are burning, and she hit the kitchen,

And it was jane who spoke, she said, its true, your cousins not a christian,

but we love trees, we love the snow, the friends we have, the world we share,

And you find magic from your god, and we find magic everywhere,



So the christians and the pagans sat together at the table,

Finding faith and common ground the best that they were able,

And where does magic come from? I think magics in the learning,

Cause now when christians sit with pagans only pumpkin pies are burning.



When amber tried to do the dishes, her aunt said, really, no, dont bother.

Ambers uncle saw how amber looked like tim and like her father.

He thought about his brother, how they hadnt spoken in a year,

He thought hed call him up and say, its christmas and your daughters here.

He thought of fathers, sons and brothers, so his own son tug his sleeve, saying,

can I be a pagan? dad said, well discuss it when they leave.



So the christians and the pagans sat together at the table,

Finding faith and common ground the best that they were able,

Lighting trees in darkness, learning new ways from the old, and

Making sense of history and drawing warmth out of the cold.

[erinlough]

76. Great song, Thanks for sharing. eom

[Scout]

132. love that song, we sing it at solstice! n/t

[RevCheesehead]

9. Well, here's an "AMEN" for ya.

:applause:

Yes, there were offensive posts today. "Where are the Christians?" "Here's what Christian Radio is saying...". Usually the topic wasn't offensive, but some of the comments were vile.

But as icky as those were, it ain't nothing compared to "Popeapalooza" back in April. We lost a lot of good DUers over that disgusting period, people who said "I can't take this anymore," and left.

Oh, and if anyone dares to tell me that I'm responsible for the comments of Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and James Dobson, I'll just remind you that ZELL MILLER IS A DEMOCRAT. As soon as you can make HIM shut the fuck up, then I'll see what I can do about the fundies.

[Perky]

14. yes and so is Jim Traficant,

we want tohid our ugliness under the rug way too much.

[FreedomAngel82]

10. Thank you

I'm Christian and liberal as well. While I know the religion has it's bad seeds and bad things that happen, I'm not naive but very much a realist, I'm still a Christian and follow Christ. I also don't like being lumped with all those people who proclaim to be Christians (like Pat Robertson) and then people think we're all like them. :eyes:

[Perky]

19. Well I happen to think Pat Robertson is a Christian

I think he is deciuved..I think he is full of himesle I think he is going to have a lot of explaing to do.. But thank God we are not saved by our works.

His sins are no different than the deaocon who stays up late at night ans surfs porn or the chrisitan mom who has a lead foot.

The atonement is no les of value for him. DOes he have a greatedr burden yes...but gor allhis failing, he is loved just as much as an no less than any other sinner.

[growlypants]

23. Pat Robertson PRAYS FOR PEOPLE to die. he is SCUM and if you

TRULY consider HIM an example of Christianity, then I want nothing of it.

[BeTheChange]

36. The point the poster was trying to make..

is that he is no less then any of us. If you are a Christian, you have to believe that there are no works you can do to get into heaven. You must acknowledge that Jesus died for our sins.. we didnt deserve it.. but nonetheless the Lord's love for us was so great that if we only chose to accept that truly into our lives, heart and consciousness then we are saved. Be us murderer, theif, even George Bush. But the catch is, that you have to truly accept that and submit to that. You cant go around having slaves for your diamond mines and praising God on the other hand thinking you can do bad if you just accept Jesus. You cant be President of the free world eating cake and then on the other hand letting the least of these die of dehydration...

As Christians we arent really supposed to do alot of judging, that's what got our religion all twisted before Jesus returned (Pharisees) and its happening all over again.

Do you really want anything of Christianity anyway, or were you just looking for a reason to jump on a person's post?

[Splatter Phoenix]

41. No works we can do...

...but, uh, probably works we should refrain from doing, like saying "god hates fags" and "thank god for aids" and "thank god he wiped out NOLA"....

I think if there was some kind of immortal loving god he just miiiiight frown on that a bit more than someone coveting his neighbor's porche.

If not, he's a nutcase.

[BeTheChange]

48. I agree..

That is why I said you cant truly accept the awesome sacrifice of dying for your sins and then do bad things anyway.

When you truly come to that conclusion it is a life changing, perception altering event. Its not just face time.

I dont think God is a nutcase if he doesnt weight sin. You get 10 Hail Mary's for saying "Fuck". You get 20 for saying God hates fags. Only 3 for coveting your neighbor's porsche to a point that it effects your life. Sin is sin, its not a monopoly game, who has the least monopoly money. I dont know if God indulges in games, its a whole different "scale". But that is just my .02.. you are more then welcome to disagree. I think there are many paths.

[Splatter Phoenix]

49. I'm atheist.

With norse-y tendencies. I never, EVER understood how murder was on even footing with coveting. Never.

[BeTheChange]

54. You arent alone..

There are many Christians who struggle with that as well.

I dont take the Bible as the literal word of God. That isnt where my last comment came from. I guess I rationalize it as: It's all screwed up. We are all better then that. We should aspire to be better then that. I shouldnt covet a person's mercedes enough that I go out and rob a bank. Or that I screw over my coworkers so I can climb higher on a corporate ladder. Now, I dont think coveting is looking at my neighbors porsche and saying, damn.. I sure would like one of those and wondering what that lucky sob did to get one.

In the same token I dont think it's wrong for me to kill someone who is putting the life of my family in danger. But I dont pretend it isnt a sin. I do the best I can, but I dont think 3 covets = 1 murder or the like. We all sin, we all fall short. I dont think Im better then any other person regardless of what they have done.

Sometimes I wouldnt mind slapping Pat Robertson around, but I dont know why he does the things he does. I can say they are wrong for me. I can say they falsely represent the God and Jesus I believe in. But Im not supposed to judge him.

[Splatter Phoenix]

56. Ahh...

Now, see, this is very well said.

Mostly when fundies talk I hear "JESUS SIN GOD GOD HELL RAPTURE JESUS GOD RAPTURE SIN BURN BURN HELL FAG BURN."

When you talk I hear something more closely related to "Sense", and "logic", in some fashion, and I appreciate it greatly.

Thank you.

[Perky]

92. Yes absolutely He frowns

It is ugly it is sinful...What is your point ... It is no less offensive then lumping all Chritisan ito on pile and say the the Holly SPirit could lick you balls..

To allow that tyoe of carpa to go on here is hypocritical when one goes out of their way to criticise the idiots practicing hatred in the name of Christ.

[fishwax]

51. You DON'T have to believe the "no works" doctrine to be a Christian

or perhaps you think Catholics aren't Christians?

I'm not trying to bash you for expressing that point of view, but I don't see why I (as a liberal christian) shouldn't be anymore offended by comments like that than I should be by posters who bash "christians" (when I know full well that most of those posters are attacking neo-pharisees rather than all christians in general).

[BeTheChange]

55. When did Catholics stop believing in Jesus's death as their salvation..

Im sorry, I grew up Catholic. I missed that one. I know of no mainstream Christian religions that believe that one can be saved by works alone.

Please point me to the passages of the Bible that say one can be saved by works alone?

[fishwax]

61. neither works alone nor faith alone

Upon initially reading your comment, I immediately associated it with the "faith alone" argument, though I see now that was not exactly the one you were making. Sorry about that, but I've been hammered over the head with that so many times by christians who claimed that a refusal to accept the doctrine of salvation through faith alone made me (a young catholic at the time) not a christian.

Catholicism doesn't teach, generally speaking, in salvation through works alone, though there are complicated afterlife scenarios in which a being without faith could be justified by works alone and thus get into heaven ...

[BeTheChange]

67. :) - agreed..

I was trying to say that. My words are obviously imperfect and Ive been up listening to scanners from NOLA for 3 days almost straight. My words arent as succinct as they should be.

:hug:

[fishwax]

71. it's all good :) it was my mis-read

I just have this deeply imbued defense mechanism when I think I'm being told what I have to believe to be a christian. Your words were fine, it was just my mechanism that was overreacting :)

:hug:

(edited for clarity)

[Dorian Gray]

108. I was just about to write this, fishwax...

but I refrained. It's important to distinguish, however, that Catholics believe that it is BOTH faith AND works that lead to Heaven. (Without faith, the works mean very little. And vice versa.)

So, I refrained because it is technically true that even for us Catholics that there are no "works" that can get us to Heaven, unless we have faith, too.

[Misunderestimator]

117. Wow! You think ROBERTSON is a CHRISTIAN? Bush too then I guess.

How could you say that someone who blames the sins of others for natural tragedies, who vilifies people of other faiths, who suggests assassinations of democratically elected foreign leaders... is a CHRISTIAN?

You think that a Christian mother speeding is the same level of sin as what Robertson has done?????

Maybe that's the problem here. If you think that these kind of Christians deserve no criticism... and that Jesus Christ has already died for all their sins, so they are already saved despite their evil ways :wtf:

[mitchtv]

11. It is always good to hear Liberal Christians

You should however, concentrate on the evil Pharisees who have hijacked some of your sects. It is high time the liberal Christians not only speak up, but shut down this heresy that pervades Western Christianity.Judge not,I was taught. If this is anti religion, so be it.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

18. You didn't read RevCheesehead's post, did you?

We CAN'T shut them up. They don't listen to us. It would be like asking the Canadians why they can't make Bush shut up.

Oh, and when OUR leaders make public pronouncements--as they frequently do, it ends up on page B26 of the local paper.

[mitchtv]

135. Obviously your allies are weak

don't know the rules of publicity and gaining the parish's trust. You can't even get up a credible resistance. You need some people to get up in the middle of some of these "sermons" and yell "that's bullshit" and walk out. How about some "bishops"/heirarchy expell/excommunicate someone. Where is the outrage?. Stop contributing to denominations who while "liberal" , won't stand up for "real" Christianity. You may feign no control,therefore you have lost your religions to those who do have control. Like I said attacks on Dems, helps you not. Concentrate on the Satan worshippers who claim to be Prophets of the Lord

[Perky]

20. Oh I completley agree

I happen to feel that a war within the CHurch is not prudent or Biblical..I think we need to stand up and be counted I thin we have to say that Jesus is offended by those who would ridicule anyone who is not a republican.. It really has nothing to do with the politics it is quite simply pushing people away from having a relationship with Jesu.

It should never be about politics and power or abortion or shcool prayer it should all be about Jesuc. Thas is lost on many bleievers and I can challenge them directly on that point.

[Splatter Phoenix]

24. Wait...

WHAT should be all about Jesus? Life? The relief aid for the Katrina people?

listen, if YOU want everything to be Jesusy, go right ahead, I've got absolutely no beef with that. None at all. None. Whatsoever.

But the instant, and I mean the bloody INSTANT your religion touches me, in any way shape or form, and I feel threatened, you need to back down because you're wrong.

Plain and simple. If you are trying to say it's okay to push your beliefs on me...that's not okay.

If I've misunderstood, forgive me, like Christians are supposed to do...heh...

[growlypants]

31. couldnt have said it better myself

[Splatter Phoenix]

35. Whew...

Oh, good, I was terrified I'd gone over the border from stern to bitchy. :D

[growlypants]

52. No, I feel EXACTLY the sdame way you do.

Im also an atheist. We gotta stick together, ya know. lol

[Splatter Phoenix]

53. Yeah, we need a church. :D For all the Atheists.

It'll open at noon, we'll head in, watch some TV, have some refreshments, discuss world events and how best to mobilize human forces to fix them, etc, etc...

And then I'll wake up. And cry myself back to sleep. v_v

[BeTheChange]

79. Have you ever went to a Unitarian Church?

My sil's boyfriend is not a Christian, but he is a music director at a Unitarian Church in Denver. He says that less then 30% of their attendees are Christian and a good number of them are Agnostics, Buddists, etc.

They seem to have fabulous comraderie and do alot of great things in their community that the other Christian churches shy away from.

He has to be super careful when selecting his music each week that it does not favor one religion or lack there of over the other. We are going to visit next weekend and Im interested in checking it out.

Anyway, not trying to convert you.. just sounds like what you said above, minus the tv :)

[Perky]

93. I agree

And as I said as I started this thirs thread I am not forcing my CHrisitinaity on any body.

[fujiyama]

96. thanks for clearing that up

:)

[fujiyama]

95. .

[Kire]

145. that's a threat

we'd be able to concentrate more if other Democrats wouldn't be such damn fools as to condemn everything as soon as they hear anything that reminds them of Christianity

if you want something done, do it yourself, otherwise you're a slave driver

[kerry-is-my-prez]

16. They only mean the "fake" Christians. There are also liberal churches.

and churches that are very caring.

[sandnsea]

22. Patriarchal religions are fucked up

Patriarchal Christianity has fucked up the south. I have as much right to express my belief as you do yours. Especially when the thinking that it produces fucks up my country. So, sit where you want but stop LETTING patriarchal christians tell others that they can't get on the bus at all.

[demgurl]

26. I am afraid I am one of the offending ones.

I started a thread here earlier and it was more my depression over a personal experience as well as state churches where bad attitudes (kicking out Kerry voters) were advertised.

And, yes, I have had a bad experience with the church. Two of my Uncles were alter boys and were molested by priests. Then one of them went on to continue the molestation with the other one.

They tried to continue the pattern with me. My mom walked in while one of them was changing my diaper and touching me in an inappropriate way.

The other one waited until I was a teen. He was looking after me while Mom was off on a trip and he came on to me. I clearly stated to him that I was his niece but he said he did not care.

The church was great about the molestation though. They actually offered my family a free plot for my Uncles to be buried in when they died. They were the most generous of people.

None of this matters because there are really good and caring people in the church. I was raised in a Catholic school and one of my favorite people, growing up, was one of the priests there. His name was Father Fisher and I still have very fond memories of him. He stood out above all others that I came into contact with.

There are churches doing a lot of good behind the scenes and I am sorry if I did offend anyone with my thread about churches giving help. In my defense, I did not state none of them would, I asked how many would. It is the churches that will not/do not help that I was directing my comments about. There are those that will not send help of any kind. They are the ones that make me sad.

For all of you who are religious and do follow the creed of doing unto others, thank you. You make the world a better place.

demgurl

[Splatter Phoenix]

28. That's sick.

And sad, and wrong, and I am so sorry you had to go through it.

And I hate to say this, but that quote about good men needing religion to do bad things is true. Almost all wars have religion tied into them. Almost all great and terrible periods of history were caused, directly or indirectly, through religion. Fanatical religion.

It needs to be stopped, only 10% or so of Christians I've met even fathom what being nice to others is ABOUT.

[faithnotgreed]

38. so sorry demgurl

for what you have been through and experienced (as religion)

and thankyou for sharing your sorrow with us
i truly cannot blame anyone for hating organized religion or turning away from God all together

the words and works of Jesus have been manipulated until unrecognizable or outright ignored

but there are some exceptional people of all faiths and non faiths - ultimately i dont care what you want to call yourself
all that matters to me is we live love for all people and all that inhabit this incredible earth

[Splatter Phoenix]

43. Ooh...

"all that matters to me is we live love for all people and all that inhabit this incredible earth"

Damn right! I LIKE that one.

[faithnotgreed]

60. hi phoenix - i would like to think im a Jesus freak

and that is the source of whatever love i have

but of course i often fail and that is laid only at my feet but i always come back to full knowing that God is love
and my responsibility as an inhabitant here is to live that love in whatever ways i can
and also my full responsibility to focus on actions and not get caught up in the misguided feeling that what matters to me is supposed to matter to anyone else

this is just me talking about my feelings
no one elses

so that most definitely means i cant busy myself with judgment of anyone else or caring what we call ourselves
there is so much affliction to care about and so much beauty to celebrate

we really are all Gods children (and as ive said before i cant blame anyone who wants to run away) but i do feel privileged to be part of this family
but no one else needs to feel that way or call themselves by any secret code word
we have seen how that story goes and i dont want any part of it

we are just all here together to care for and to love
the rest is just needless semantics that only separates us

[Splatter Phoenix]

63. Okie...dokie...

But, ah...saying we're all God's children is kind of insulting to an atheist, because in that case I'm a bastard, who doesn't...believe in her father, which disturbs me.

As for running away...*sigh* this will only end in a flame war, I won't even address that.

I liked your original comment, just not this one.

[faithnotgreed]

72. ok friend - just sharing the rest of myself here but most definitely

nothing intended to alienate
sorry that is what you felt from it

you may have responded before i posted my edit in my previous post but either way its ok
im glad you would share what youre feeling as well

i was only describing my thoughts but no judgment felt or intended at all
wow not at all

im not sure how long you have been here but hopefully you can know i place myself in front of no one
just beside every other creature on this planet and i dont care a whit what the label is because thats all they are
labels that often dont mean a thing except something to keep us from one another

on edit: just so you know a bit more of who i am
im a long time member of the green party and now dc for statehood green party

peace friend

[Splatter Phoenix]

75. Ohhh....^^

My apologies...I don't believe you did edit before, let me go check...

I didn't mean to insult you, either..v_V...I'm a bit tired and incoherent, is all.

[faithnotgreed]

83. fully understood and appreciated - thanks for talking it out

with me

and yes
we are all a bit worn down right now

take good care

[Splatter Phoenix]

85. You too. ^___^

'Night. :D

[PatriotGames]

27. Nobody here bashed Christians in general. It's the fundies we loathe.

[Name removed]

144. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[marbuc]

32. I have been one to criticize the Religous Right

and if you have taken this as an affront to your belief system, I apologize. I did not intend to insult Christianity, or even evangelism as a whole, but only what I see as the hypocritical elements on the right, that use the bible to condemn people, culture, and behavior they do not agree with, but that (in my opinion) is perfectly acceptable in the eyes of God.

I value your role in the party. We definitely need a stronger "Religious Left" take the "moral card" back from the Republicans, and return it to the liberal ideology where it belongs. After all, Jesus was a liberal. It is folks like you, and only folks like you, that can deliver this message with sincerety.

[Splatter Phoenix]

44. Hey, good point.

Jesus was a long-haired bastard child hippie revolutionary. If he'd conformed like the Rethugs do, he'd not have been crucified.

(this is all operating under the assumption he actually existed, of course, and I have my doubts about even that simple fact)

[Scout]

47. We don't need a Religious Left ....

people can be, and are moral human beings without any religion at all. You don't have to have a religion to be moral, and I don't think we need to cater to that idea.

I'd rather we could get rid of religion altogether ... all of 'em.

[Perky]

90. I could not disagree more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You proceed from an assuption the religion is about morality. Morality is a fruit of a life lived before God. but it is not why I became a Christian.

CHrisitianity is abot my own completeness before God and the teulting frut that I bear.


Morality is not the source of my Christianity it is but one of the result. That is the huge mistake that my broithers on the right make. You can not legislate morality and expect to get converts as a result,

[July]

105. You disagree about getting rid of religion, or about needing religion

to be moral, or both?

[Scout]

113. I proceeded from this statement in the post I responded to....

We definitely need a stronger "Religious Left" take the "moral card" back from the Republicans, and return it to the liberal ideology where it belongs.

I want people to realize that many, many people are moral, fine, upstanding human beings without religion. We don't need a religion to be spiritual or to have a relationship with the creative force.

[kestrel91316]

39. I hate Christofascists and respect True Followers of Christ. Comprendez?

[progressivebydesign]

45. I respect your beliefs. I only dislike the Christians that...

well, the ones that constantly throw it in everyone's faces as though they are the only religion on Earth. Used to be that people were Christian, not "A Christian". It described a large group of denominations. The term Christian was co-opted by people that believe their way is the only way and that we ALL must follow it. The ones I have a problem with are the ones that want to stick their religion in our public schools, governments, and entertainment.

I respect any person's beliefs, as long as they are not forcing it on other people, and as long as they are not hypocrites.. which sadly, many of those that scream about the Christian thing the loudest are the worst offenders.

I would feel very conflicted about my religion if someone like Pat Roberston is in the club, so to speak.

[coffeenap]

46. I think many of us are intolerant of fundamentalists of all stripes--

for most of us THAT is the issue, not whether they are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, or anything else. When we identify anyone by group we are doing every individual a diservice. I am sorry for your pain.

[HuskerDU]

50. To me the problem is that when supposed 'Christian'

spokespeople are on tv they parrot the words of Paul and seem to ignore the teachings of Jesus. That is probably why most DUers have a problem with tv 'Christians.'

The fundies should really stop calling themselves Christians and rename themselves Paulians. They could care less what Jesus said or they would be liberals.

[Razorback22]

77. as a Christian I choose to not watch the TV "christians" who...

flash a phone number and seek donation for missions that can include elaborate houses, private jets, and let's not forget about the air conditioned dog houses. There is a LOT more the Christians than what you see on TV. Similarly, there is a lot more to Islam than terrorists, and a lot more to Judaism than Woody Allen movies.

[MissMarple]

58. Oh, honey.

:hug:

Thanks for your post.

[Greyhound]

62. As a non-Xtian, the pat robertson's and cardinal law's are the...

representatives of your religion that I see and, at least where I live, come into contact with are the followers of these types. If they don't represent your religion, you better stand up and heard.

[Razorback22]

70. Or...

perhaps you could educate yourself on the subject before you speak on it. Generalizations, like your statement just now, are considered bigotry, racism and anti-semitism by changing just a few of those nouns. I am sure you did not intend for your statement to read that way, and I am not accusing you of anything, but try this on for size:

"As a non-black, the Michael Jacksons and OJ Simpsons are the representatives of your race that I see and, at least where I live, come into contact with are the followers of these types. If they don't represent your race, you better stand up and be heard."

See what I mean. Both can be construed as very offensive based on who is readning it.

[Splatter Phoenix]

78. Jackson's not black. XD

Well, okay, he kind of is, but he doesn't look it.

Anyway, I always used to say--"I am a representation of my people. I am Irish, Italian, White, Atheist-Norse-fence-hopper, redhead, female, etc...whatever way people look at me is how they will judge that part of me they focus on: if they focus on my being a girl and think females are stupid, it is my duty to behave the way I naturally do and by default prove them wrong."

I used to say it, but then I got piss tired of people only seeing me the way they were programmed to no matter what I did, so I quit giving a shit, but you're welcome to give it a try.

[Razorback22]

80. good point.

I realize that it is tough to change people's preconceptions of a group of people. It would be crazy for someone to say to you, "Iknow what women are all about because I saw Courtney Love on TV."

[Splatter Phoenix]

81. It's true.

People are so, so willing to just throw you in a pigeonhole and have that be the end of it. v_v...once humans get over this bigotry, I swear to you wars will end. Once all people are able to look at others that are "different" and only see people with thoughts and emotions quite similar to theirs, wars will end up a horrific, distant memory.

[Greyhound]

128. My education is based on experience, not theory...

your image is your problem not mine. Your argument seems to be listen to what we say, ignore what we do. :shrug:

[Telly Savalas]

73. What about this guy?

[Razorback22]

74. This man is a hero and a christian

Good example.

[BeTheChange]

82. That guy rocks..

I was inspired by the Black Caucus' press conference yesterday and their reminders of MLK.

We need more MLKs and less TD Jakes.

[Greyhound]

127. who? pic link is broken n/t

[Vektor]

65. I'm sorry you have been subjected to that.

of course it is not fair to bash anyone for their religious preferences. There are many deeply religious Democrats, who are very good and loving people.

[Splatter Phoenix]

68. Everyone? I have an announcement.

You know, the fact that none of us actually venomously bitched any of the rest of us out, or forced a mod to lock this topic, gives me new hope for my chosen party.

Thank you all.

[Darkhawk32]

84. Time for the Christian left to take their religion back! n/t

[BeTheChange]

86. Rome wasnt built in a day...

Ill be curious to see what this earth shattering event does to aid in spiritual realignment and revival.

[Darkhawk32]

88. Time to be more vocal. It'll take time, but it'll happen. n/t

[The_Casual_Observer]

87. It has something to do with USING Christianity to push a hard rw agenda

And how so many of these "christians" have been led by the nose down the path.

[Dem2theMax]

89. From one Christian to another, thank you.

I totally understand what you are saying. If only others did, the problem wouldn't exist here on DU.

[mitchtv]

136. the "problem" is Christians who throw up their hands

and say 'there's nothing we can do". Attacking dems and DU'rs is easy. that is in effect an alliance with the Christian Wrong, cause they use the same attacks on Dems, and the left, Attack the Old testament/paulians , if you want to be any use to Democracy. Expose hypocrisy.

[fujiyama]

94. I'm atheist/agnostic

but I'll certainly say that churches (non Pat Robertson types) are doing a lot of good work these last several days.

But while I have seen a few isolated posts bashing Christians, I think you're exagerrating. In fact I saw many praising religious groups and condemning the bashers.

[DIKB]

99. I often

go over to exchristian.net if I feel like venting frustration. For the most part it is aimed at fundamentalist christians imposing their "morals" on others. My family is Catholic, fair and open minded, REAL christians imo. I simply have no tolerance for the intolerant. I rail against those devotees to Paul's teachings, who aren't true follower's of the original hippie, Jesus. I do apologize if I have offended any christians here at DU.

[POAS]

100. You say:

"I have earned my right to sit up front and by God I intend to do so, This is my party too and you cant tell me that there is no room for me.

Get off our backs already!!!"

My suggestion, if you want people off YOUR back, is too take back YOUR religion from the Pharisees. IF you feel they don't represemt YOUR Christianity then confront THEM not those htat respond defiantly against those that claim to speak for YOUR religion.

[Perky]

106. Easier said then done

But I try every day. I am not inclined to start a inquisition the purges the church of it hypocrites...mostly because...well first of all we are always going to have tares among the wheat.

Secondly open warfare within the Church is no good thing...ultimately.


But here is the larger picture; the place where I place my focus within the Church. Everybody in the CHurch has the right to their own political peccadilloes,, I can;t deny them the right to feel about issues the way that they do.

What folks on the right within the Church fail to connect with is that they are exercising an exclusionary position that pushes people away from the un-partisan faith they profess rather than drawing them.

Jesus was not a partisan, If our first calling is draw men and women unto Him by our kind Words or actions, our lives we can not be seen as hostile or hypocritical or Holier than thou,


THe Point is that the effort to transform the Church is not about making them all Democrats or lefties....or progressives, its about making them evangelicals.

If we succeed in that... honestly everything else takes care of itself.

[POAS]

109. I don't believe I said

anything about converting anyone to the left or to a different viewpoint.

My point to you is that if those folks on the right do not speak for you then it is your duty, and the duty of those that think like you, to raise your voice to rival those on the right.

If you don't want Christianity defined by the rantings of those on the right then you should make sure that theirs is not the only voice being heard.

Ranting at the opinion of those that only hear one side does no good if your side is silent.

Raise your voice when a "Christian" speaks against what YOU believe. Raise your voice of dissent or stay mute and let the Pat Robertsons identify Christianity for you.

The choice is yours.

[Pharlo]

101. I was born and raised in America

as a Catholic. I was taught the following:

- If someone wants to be preached at/to they will go to church.
- When you do a charitable act, don't advertise it - to do so means what others think of you is more important than helping others.
- Distrust anyone who feels the need to advertise their religion - it's actions which are important, not words.
- Judge others by their actions, not their words (Case in point: George 'What a Christian I am / Watch me screw as many people as I can' Bush).
- My religion is a denomination of Christianity, regardless of how much others may imply otherwise. Until there is a Papal decree to the contrary, I can remain certain that shall never be one of the devisive arguments which permeates the church to which I belong.

If someone wants to tell me that according to their religion, I am doomed to hell because I'm not born again, that's their opinion. Do I agree with it? Not particularly. Am I offended by it? Nope. Am I going to go start a separate thread about it? No.

But then, unlike other 'mainstream' Christians in the US, Catholics (in spite of their numbers) have become used to being treated as less than 'Christian' by many. I was raised to believe the opinions of other humans is inconsequential. There is only one opinion that matters and it won't be encountered on Earth.

There are a lot of opinions on these forums.....Some you agree with, many you won't. Try not to take them personally. The minute you do you'll find yourself wondering how you ever became such a 'wonderful/terrible, loving/hating, dispicable/caring, Christ-loving/Satan-worshipping, patriotic/Unamerican, piece of trash/jewel of humanity' manic depressive.

[Maraya1969]

102. I REALLY don't think people are referring to ordinary Christians but maybe

everyone should specify that in their posts. I aways refer to the fundamentalists because they are the fraction of Christians that give Christianity a bad reputation.

The fundamentalist Christians are usually a bad group. I don't' think you can dispute that. But the true Christians, the ones that actually follow the teachings of Jesus are not.

I can truly say that I was a VICTIM of fundamentalist Christianity as a young person. It took me years to get over it. I honestly think I suffered from post traumatic stress syndrom because of my association with that group. Growing up as a Methodist was fine and did not leave any scars. But the brainwashing I got from the fundamentalists when I joined the group in college was abusive.

So, many of us are just trying to recover from the small group of sadists that call themselves Christians. Maybe you can learn to look on the people who say mean things about Christians as wounded people because many of us are.

[theHandpuppet]

103. Pardon the interruption here...

Just perhaps, Perky, you might pause for a moment to examine the foundation for some of the anger you see directed here -- rightly or wrongly, as the case may be -- at the Christian church.

You want to talk about persecution? Some hurtful words you might read on this forum are NOTHING, and I repeat, NOTHING compared to the real life persecution people are suffering every day in the name of the Lord and supposedly God-fearing Christians.

It's not secular humanists who are bombing Planned Parenthood clinics and assassinating abortion providers.

It's not Jews who are ripping the teaching of evolution from school textbooks and banning books from libraries.

It's not atheists who are demanding a Constitutional Amendment to ensure, once and for all, that gay people will never enjoy their full rights as citizens of this country.

It wasn't Muslims who pressured the state govt in Virginia to legally rip away what few legal protection gay families had, leaving me and my partner without health benefits even if it was a private business perfectly willing to offer them.

It's not agnostic websites that are proclaiming that the destruction of NOLA was God's wrath over abortion and gays.

Yes, that's just a taste of what real persecution is like. It's not just words, Perky, it's REAL.

There are millions of Christians and powerful Christian leaders in this country who have declared war on women, on gays, on reproductive choice, on science, on our very Constitution. Leaders who use their pulpits and their financial resources as tools of neoconservatism and oppression. Their political influence is not to be dismissed. Fact is, they have become so powerful in this country that it seems that a majority of the battles we Dems are fighting right now are ones which involve Christian reconstructionists or fundamentalists trying to undermine the Constitution, fix elections, or pass laws oppressing our fellow citizens.

Yes, there are most certainly Christians who do not espouse those beliefs and ideals and who truly follow the teachings of Jesus, but when you're getting smacked in the face every day with REAL LIFE persecution from those calling themselves Christians and Christian groups it's hard not to get mighty fucking pissed off every once in a while. You feel as if you're asked to take a seat in the back of the bus? I wish I had a nickel for every DUer here who has suggested that gays shouldn't press for their rights because a candidate who supports equal rights for gays could never get elected. THAT'S taking the seat at the back of the bus.

Furthermore, I do harbor some resentment that Bush's base, the voters who put us in this damned mess and provided the margin of victory for this warmongering sociopath, are to be found among those who consider themselves born-agains. (See link below for the demographic breakdown). It's the same resentment I harbor against the wealthy, predominately white elite who, like greedy parasites, suck this country dry of its humanity in order to line their own pockets. The same ones who left thousands in NOLA to drown until they could find a way to profit from this human tragedy. As with the Christian community, certainly there are compassionate and progressive millionaires and corporations, but those are not the ones declaring daily war on me and my loved ones, on the rights of women and gays, on the very principles on which this nation was founded.

Perhaps when progressive Christians and their leaders truly mobilize against the extremists who have hijacked their religion there won't be the anger you see here. Save your anger for them.

Finally, this non-Christian who nonetheless respects Jesus the teacher, leaves you with these words:

Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.

Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you....

You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth."
    But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
    If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.
    Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy."
    But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
    For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
    Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


Understand the source of the anger before you return it. Isn't that what Jesus would do?

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html
http://www.hrc.org/Template.cfm?Section=Religion4&CONTENTID=21769&TEMPLATE=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm
http://www.frederickclarkson.com/2005/06/ohio-blackwell-and-christian-right.html
http://www.4religious-right.info/
http://www.frederickclarkson.com/2005/06/anti-gay-campaign-in-maine.html
http://www.coalitionformarriage.net/wakeupmaine.html
http://www.frederickclarkson.com/articles.php#abortionmilitancy
http://www.focusaction.org/
http://www.tencommandments.org/homosexual.html
http://www.operationsaveamerica.org/
http://www.cc.org/
http://www.operationrescue.org/?p=229

[Perky]

111. I never said I felt Iwas persecuted....

I have never defended the politics of Pat or Jerry.

I deeply regret the divisions they have caused in this country.

[CarbonDate]

161. Ugh, don't quote the Beatitudes....

...those are exactly the reason that Christians, right wing and liberal alike, find persecution around every corner. It validates their existence. Absent persecution, their lives have no meaning.

Ask the Reverend Al Sharpton, I'm sure he'll tell you that it's not because of his religion that he's given such a hard time.

[mhr]

104. The Christan Fundamentalists Undermining This Country

Belong in their self deserved hell.

I will not change my opinion on this issue.

If you take offense then go look in the mirror and find a way to eliminate them from Christianity!

They give religion a very bad name and stir the ire in people like me.

I am damned tired of being told what to think or how to think it!

[mitchtv]

137. you said in 5 lines

what I took many threads to say. Thanks

[jonnyblitz]

107. ha..you christians drive and OWN the freakin bus...

unbelievable you have the gall to scream persecution.

[Misunderestimator]

118. Hear hear!

:thumbsup:

[OregonBlue]

112. You are right. I am not a Christian but there are many good

caring Christian Democrats. My family is from Texas and they are Christians. They have been fighting against Bush and his ilk their entire lives. Take care, ignore the idiots that criticize your religion instead of criticizing the rabid right that is trying to hijack it.

I think sometimes we get carried away. It is hard not to when you see what is going on.

Times are about to change, we need every caring, concerned person of every faith to win this battle.

If I have ever posted any anti-Christian comments, please accept my apology, it will not happen again.

[Perky]

114. The Point of this post is still being missed (PLEASE READ THIS)

The problem is that most people here think that the response to the religious-right ought to be a political response and it simply will not work.

There is nothing wrong with Biblical Fundamentalism. Technically speaking I am a Biblical Fundamentalist and an Evangelical.

What the Religious-Right (note the Hyphenation) is is a bunch of social constructionists who think they have some ordained right to tell the world how they must-lice and are willing to use money and politics to advance their agenda.

It is social fundamentalism not Biblical fundamentalism.

I very clearly understand the sentiment expresses ad nauseum on here that these folks on the right are not Christ-like. No shit.

WHat I object to is vilification of all people of Faith simply because someone else has the microphone.

THe Denigration of the Lot of us... is dull-witted and hypocritical because those who do that are doing precisely the same thing that Jerry Falwell does.

ANd again. if the things said about Christians (generically) on DU were said about Jews or African americans, you would demand they be banned. The tolerance of intolerance on DU is as strong as it is among those everyone here rightfully criticize the RW for.

It in part about the choice of words, but it is also about real world segregation of classes here on DU. I have an absolute right to be a Christian and a democrat. Perhaps some of my CHurch friends don't understand that, but by God...everybody on DU should!!!!!!!

[Misunderestimator]

119. Not to be trite here... but perhaps you should just turn the other cheek.

Seems to me you are harping about a few posters who have valid criticisms of Christians and who have made some general remarks that you take personally. You shouldn't take them personally. Given that the poster is "vilifying" all Christians... how could it be personal?

The thread you cited is about a RW Christian Radio host... who deserves vilification for being a hypocrite.

There is no segregation here. Of course you have a right to be a Christian and a democrat. There are plenty here that I know personally. Most of my friends are Christians... but I will still criticize the religion and its leaders and individuals like that radio show host and our president who use Christianity as a weapon. What should we do... ignore it?

[Perky]

125. No you can not ignore the idiots and their micropones.

I am just saying the we need to go after the individual rather than saying all Chsitians are alike.

[Misunderestimator]

129. But you make it seem like it's a bigger thing than just the few posters

it is... by insinuating persecution in your subject "I will not give up my seat on this bus!!!"

There's no persecution of Christians here.

Of course people should go after the individual... and you should too... address those individuals who offend you this way, instead of blaming all of us for doing so.

[Perky]

130. Go back and read my original post,

I do not feel peresecuted. I am critical of that portion of DU... but the point is that the I am equally stunned at the tolerance of their ugliness by others on DU.

It is not ok to bash minorities or Jews as a group but it is ok (apparently) to bash CHristians as a group. It is disneginous and belied some great Democratic traditions.


THat is in fact shameful... We should be about tolerance and diversity.....right?

[Misunderestimator]

131. The persecution insinuation is in the SUBJECT...

in case you didn't read that part of my post. Don't pretend you aren't comparing yourself to Rosa Parks... how is that not insinuating that you are being persecuted?

You cannot compare criticism of Christianity to racism. Race is not used as a weapon. Race is not used as a cover to do harm to others. Christianity has been used that way.

I tolerate Christians more than Christians tolerate me, generally speaking.

[Festivito]

120. Stay on the bus, stay strong, don't let them get to you.

There are many persons on DU hurt by religions and other things such that they have to lash someone or something. It's sad. Too many times the harm convolutes too deep to resolve within this medium.

Keep your skin tough. Stand your, OUR, ground -- as I agree and reside in the same boat, or in this case, bus.

God be with you on your side of the keyboard.
-Fes

[mitchtv]

138. get control of the G/Dammned bus

stop allowing the Wrong to speak for you, cause right now it's headed straight to Hell

[Miss Chybil]

123. Amen. You are, of course, right.

I think a lot of people are intolerant of intolerance. REAL Christians tend not to get themselves on t.v. calling for assassination of world leaders, or protesting soldier's funerals for having the audacity to die for a "gay-loving" country.

If people replaced the name of the target of a lot of their rants with "Muslim," or "black guy" they'd be appalled at themselves. I catch myself getting angry at "Christians," when I'm really angry at Fundamentalists, of any stripe, trying to deprive people of their FUNDAMENTAL human rights. I will be more careful to specify that fact in the future.

[tavalon]

124. Perky

I was raised Southern Baptist and was told to pull the Democratic lever (I always sucked at following directions but have landed back to that point of view because the other side is even more corrupt). I know there are good Christians out there and there are the rabid ones. I'm sorry that so many here are so quick to criticize and don't realize that is a small vocal minority who are giving Christians a bad name.

[Behind the Aegis]

133. Nor should you!

It is not uncommon to see this type of bigotry, no matter what side someone is on. The "left" likes to pretend it is immune to bigotry and it's not; that's part of the problem. And, as the first to respond to this thread said, there is plenty of anti-Semitic rhetoric bantared about, most gets deleted, sometimes not quickly enough, sometimes, not at all. It is difficult to even discuss anti-Semitism without it turning into an Israeli-bashing thread, which gets whisked off to I/P, only to be locked. The ones that don't get locked are picked apart well by the mods there (tighter rules in I/P).

So don't give up your seat, you have a right to it! Also, don't stop speaking out against anti-Christian bias (as it applies to the whole religion)!

[mitchtv]

139. yeah that's right , speak out against anit christian bias

What about anti democratic theocons?
Priorities... who is more dangerous?

[beam me up scottie]

140. What a nasty, spiteful op.

Get off your backs???

How about getting off that cross?

Try hitting alert next time, instead of accusing DUers of being intolerant towards christians.

Jesus Christ on a trailer hitch, you own everything, you run everything, laws are made by and for you, and that's still not enough?

You think people should give you special treatment because of your religion?

Guess what?

They already do.

In the real world, as well as on DU.

The rules were changed on DU to protect your sensitive souls, in case you forgot.

Now anything that might be considered even remotely offensive to christians can be locked or deleted immediately simply because someone whines about it.

Like threads where the op commits the despicable, almost unspeakably evil act of quoting Nietzsche. :sarcasm:

Freedom of speech does not exist in this forum, but that's to YOUR advantage, not ours.

We have to tiptoe around and be careful not to upset your delicate sense of entitlement, otherwise we'll be censored and labeled "religious bigots".

Oh, there's a LOT of bigotry on this board, but it's not towards the vast majority of people, who are CHRISTIAN, in case you didn't know.

How dare you compare yourself to minorities who actually ARE abused and oppressed by bigots every day?

And how many of those bigots are christian?

I work with christian bigots, so please stop whining about how offended YOU are.

What I see on DU are many christians refusing to accept the fact that much of the evil done in the past two millenium was done in the name of Christ.

How many times does someone claim that a politician or a freeper is not a "real" christian?

The inference being that only "good" people are christians, bad people are obviously something else.

In case you don't recognize it, that's called elitism and it is the root of intolerance.

The word "christian" is substituted for words that describe kind and decent human beings in our goddamn language, and you are whining about how offended YOU are?

Give me a break.

I'd like to suggest you take Modem Butterfly's famous advice and wear a t-shirt that proudly proclaims you are an atheist for one weekend.

It's similar to James Randi's famous challange, except instead of lacking brains or proof of the paranormal, in this case nobody has had the GUTS to do it yet.

Wonder why that is...after all, if christians are already so oppressed, what are they afraid of?

I've never seen so many people try so hard to redefine themselves as victims.

It's dishonest and insulting to the real victims of intolerance.

[Scout]

141. Bravo!

:toast:

[salvorhardin]

142. Excellent synopsis of the feelings of so many in this country

It's much easier being an atheist here than in some other countries, but it's never been a piece of cake. Your post hits on so many of the reasons why. Thanks for a post that few would dare make.

[onager]

146. I'm glad somebody said it.

Persecuted, my fat white ass. My family has been fighting this country's wars since the American Revolution. I spent 6 years in the Marines myself.

Yet I had to hear a candidate for President of the United States, one George H.W. Bush, express his opinion that I shouldn't even be considered a citizen because I'm an atheist.

I'd hate to know how many of my fellow Americans agreed with that twit.

BTW, has anyone seen an omnipotent and benevolent Sky-Pixie lately? People could use some help down on the Gulf Coast.

[beam me up scottie]

147. A seat on the bus? We're not even ALLOWED

on the frickin bus!

This former Marine, one of those from the "don't even think they should be considered Americans" category says boo f*cking hoo to the owners, drivers and riders in the exclusionary "bus" club who think they have a right to whine about where they sit.

Gays are ALSO not allowed on the bus.

I don't hear many of the club members screaming for the bus to stop so they can let all of us on board.

I guess our presence would prevent the bus from winning the election race, right?


I want to give credit to the liberal christians who have been fighting for our right to be on that bus.

I like to think that includes the majority of DUers who are not preoccupied with the seating chart.

[mitchtv]

148. what a refreshing rant

Thank you

[Zhade]

150. Fanfuckingtastic post.

Really, the self-centered whiny faux-victim mentality gets SO tiresome.

[really annoyed]

151. Amen

I can't believe criticism of a religion is considered bigotry. How about using religion as a form of bigotry? I think that should not be acceptable.

I have nothing but RESPECT for liberal Christians who are fighting bigotry, racism, poverty, and the "religious right." However, I'll never accept using religion as a basis of hatred. In my eyes, that is not religion. And I'm sure most Christians here would think the same way.

I do think it all comes down to personality though - how some people turn loving with religion and others downright hateful.

Heck, a man I talked to on the internet was a conservative Catholic, and he was extremely tolerant. He battled racism at its worse. He didn't exhibit a condensending attitude toward gays and lesbians. He never had a bad word to say about my (then) non-theistic attitude. Very wonderful person.... And a religion I wish more people exhibited.

In my personal experience, I think atheists and agnostics have been very tolerant of people's religious beliefs. I can't say for other people though. It's more about criticizing the religion than the person, I think. Unless the person is a complete jackass. :evilgrin:

Anyway, wonderful post.

[Modem Butterfly]

190. Ramen, baby!

Leave it to BMUS to spell it out plain.

[Zhade]

149. Who asked you to?

That's quite a persecution complex you've got going.

Here's a hint: you aren't persecuted. When you can't run for office in several states due to your (lack of) belief, come talk to me.

What you've done is EXACTLY what you claim others have done: smearing with a broad brush those who don't accept your belief system as true.

Sorry, that's just hypocrisy.

[enki23]

156. you know you've got it good when the most you can complain about...

is some people talking bad about your religion on the goddamned internet. seriously. that's your persecution?

i don't feel sorry for you. at all.

call me when an atheist president, backed up by a majority atheist congress, and surrounded by atheist state governments, starts cancelling your church services.

[Zhade]

157. THANK you.

Some people don't realize how catered to they are - and they have the AUDACITY to claim persecution!

Utterly laughable.

[AZDean]

158. Do Progressives really want to kick Christians off the bus?

Whether Christians are persecuted here or not doesn't seem to be the important matter. What matters is that more and more Christians are feeling like the Democratic Party no longer wants them on the bus. Can this be good for the party?

Maybe it's not enough to say simply which particular group of Christians you want to get off the bus. Maybe it would be better to say which kind of Christians you welcome with open arms onto the bus. Maybe it's not a good thing to imply simply that "they" aren't wanted. Maybe it would be better to say what you *do* like about whoever it is that wants to board the bus.

Who do you accept and who do you reject? Or better, which positions do you accept, and which positions do you refuse entry to?

Do we even say? Or do we just hope people aren't turned off by our insensitive remarks (because frankly, we just don't care to be all that sensitive to "those" people)?

[beam me up scottie]

159. Most progressives ARE christians, fer Christ's sake.

They OWN the goddamn bus and the rest of the country, for that matter.

Stop trying to pretend you're being persecuted, here, or anywhere else.

Whiny christians.

The ones who think they're being persecuted.

Those are the ones we want off the bus.

If SOME christians want to whine about where they sit and cry about how liberals are big meanies for criticizing the religious right and compare themselves to black people and other minorities, I hope they get thrown off the bus.

Hell, I wouldn't even slow down.

Maybe then there will be room for all of the GLBT people and the atheists and the rest of those who could never get on the bus to begin with.

Insensitive?

Hardly.

Ask a gay person or another minority who's been told to shut up and sit down about insensitivity and in-party bigotry.

[salvorhardin]

160. Dude, you're 76.5% of the population!

There's only 13.6% of the population that is non-religious/secular including the 0.4% of us brave enough to self-identify as atheist. The remaining 8.6% includes Judaism and all other religions.

So, you see, as a proud member of that 0.4%, I find claims of Christain persecution in the U.S. to be inaccurate at best. Like BMUS said, you own the bus and you've been driving it for a long, long time.

Source: http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#religions

[trotsky]

162. Question

Do you think DU is representative of the Democratic Party?

What exactly in real life Democratic Party politics is hostile towards religious belief AT ALL? Was it all the speakers at last year's DNC that ended with "God Bless America"? Did they all say it just for kicks, but really want all the religious folks "off the bus"?

Or did I miss all the atheists who spoke and demanded that religious people shut the f*ck up?

[salvorhardin]

163. STFU

Isn't that what that little girl who spoke said to Al Sharpton?

[beam me up scottie]

164. The Democratic Party isn't hostile to christians.

SOME christians are just used to being catered to and are upset that Dems have other things on their mind right now.

Like saving the country and preventing the moral majority from taking us back to the dark ages.

But we're insensitive. :eyes:

GET OVER IT YOU CRYBABIES !!!

How's that for insensitive?

[carl_pwccaman]

165. Non-bigots encouraged/welcome, bigots need not apply

Good point.

All I have to say is, it is very clear to me that the Democratic Party actively seeks to include people 'in the tent' who aren't bigotted in their actions towards others, people who don't want to write laws that reinforce bigotry.

So if a Christian or a non-Christian meets that description, they are definitely welcome and actively sought.

It is just as clear to me that those who harass others, those who are bigoted in their actions towards others, people who want laws to reflect their bigotry, aren't a help to the Democratic Party, and aren't a help to the various movements in the 'big tent', all of which thrive when we go in the other direction, away from bigotry.

And for those who disagree, it is nonetheless true that what the Democratic Party stands for, what it says and does, are things that might help those who disagree, to a great extent. Fighting for schools, healthcare, fairness, the 'little guy', helps many who disagree with us.

At issue is that the Republican Party, by contrast, doesn't offer much to those who disagree, except scapegoating, demonization, slander, cuts in programs, etc., and even those who agree don't seem to get much back in return, and the culture itself has become so mean-spirited. It seems that the message, actions, substance of the Republican Party, is to put down others as second or third-class.

[beam me up scottie]

166. Maybe you don't

remember how many times our GLBT brothers and sisters were told that demanding equal rights was going to "cost" the party the next election, so they should just wait and not be so selfish.

Or that women shouldn't actively seek to stop Roberts from being confirmed because we need to "pick our battles" and that we should just accept it and maybe we'll feel like fighting for their reproductive rights the next time around.

Or how many on this board vilified and blamed illegal aliens (only the brown ones, of course) for causing everything from high crime rates to unemployment to driving up the price of health care and making it easier for terrorists to enter the country.

Not ONCE have christians EVER been told that they should sit down and shut up.

Nor will they ever be.

There are a lot of people on DU that have a right to be angry about being allowed to stay under the big tent as long as they keep their mouths shut don't ask for too much.

So, yes, it is abundantly clear to us just who is welcome and who is barely tolerated.

And we find it unbelievably insulting that some christians think they're being persecuted by others in the party.


Rant not directed at you, sorry.

[Zhade]

167. You're kidding, right? I mean, you can't possible be that blind.

Christians are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO not persecuted in this country, on this board, or anywhere else in this country.

They are FAVORED in many cases.

Get the fuck OVER yourself already.

[shrike]

168. I think we should declare a moratorium on religious arguments

at DU. No offense, Perky, and I'm sorry you feel the way you do, but people are mouthy on this board, and they're mouthy on just about every subject. Including myself, I guess.

I find it discouraging that we STILL expend so much energy arguing religious questions (in a non-productive manner, for the most part) when neither side will win, and when people have been arguing the same issues for hundreds (and thousands) of years with no resolution.

There are ways to discuss religion and philosophy in a respectful manner, but more often than not things end in a shouting match because so much emotion is involved. Believers think they are right, non-believers think they are right and neither can sway the other. It ends up being a waste of energy -- and talent, quite frankly, since there are so many bright people on this board, believers and non-believers.

So, I think I will begin my own moratorium on any thread having to do with religion, save maybe an occasional post in the Catholic/Christian group, where I drop in occasionally. (I already avoid Pope/Church posts. Other than the few posters who do know their history and have spot-on -- and important -- criticism of the church, such threads usually bring out the worst in DU.) I doubt anyone will care about my moratorium other than me, but at least it'll get my blood pressure under control. Besides, I can avoid those dreadful pledge/flag debates (shudder.)

[Gregorian]

169. This very same thing struck me today also.

I was riding my bike, and suddenly I realized the similarity between liberals bashing christianity and republican arrogance.

Also, I am surprised that such bright people don't accept facts. The fact is, Jesus rose from the dead. What is so hard to accept about that?

I just discovered this forum. I've got to spend some time reading what's already here. Great stuff folks!

[beam me up scottie]

170. " The fact is, Jesus rose from the dead. "

Fact?

A 'bright' person like you should have no trouble proving it then.

I hope you don't mind that I invited a few friends, I didn't want to keep this earth shattering event to myself.

We're waiting.

:popcorn:

[Az]

171. This should be interesting

:popcorn:

[Gregorian]

178. And the holocaust never happened.

And the earth is flat.

[Az]

179. We have quite a bit of evidence to verify those things

We are merely asking for the evidence you have that raise the statement you made to the condition of fact. Namely that Jesus rose from the dead.

It may be it did happen. Just saying it did does not make it so. If it happened there may be some evidence comfirming it. Present it and we will consider it. Its a reasonable request.

[beam me up scottie]

180. That's your proof ???

:rofl:

Sorry everyone, you may as well go home, nothing to see here.

I thought maybe we had an actual debate brewing.

It's just another "The buy-bull tells me so" scholar.

[Gregorian]

186. Jesus existed. That is another fact.

Or did he?

We might not even be able to agree on that.

One possible problem is that these words were written at least 2000 years ago.

The bible was not written by one author. And there is a lot of contradiction in it. But even the contradictions support what Jesus said. If he even existed. And the world changed in a huge way in the immediate time that Jesus walked the earth.

You can't prove the existence of love, can you? But you believe it exists with a great deal of certainty. Do you really know the earth is round? Have you actually seen the sphere with your own eyes? Why do you believe the holocaust happened? Were you there? What would you need as proof?

There are many aspects to the bible that point toward what happened to Jesus as being factual. Not the least of which is the dramatic changes in people's lives who otherwise were just ordinary people. Those who followed Jesus, and those who became followers while he lived. There are predictions in the bible that came true. If the bible had been written by one man, such as (and I'm going out on a limb here because I don't know for sure of this) Mohammed and the Koran, then none of it would be much more than a non-fiction book. But it's many unrelated people supporting the very existence and actions of Jesus.

And in the end, can you really prove anything? I accept what I have read as historical factual documentation.

[beam me up scottie]

187. I don't have to prove anything, I wasn't the one making false claims.

I suggest you learn the difference between belief and fact.

If that fails, try to remember that when you insult the intelligence of others by claiming they "can't accept facts", you'd damn well better have proof of what they can't "accept".

I could care less if you believe what your book says, but when you present it to me as "fact", the burden of proof is on you.

[Gregorian]

191. If you don't want to accept what is written in the bible,

then why are you in this forum? Why are you harrassing me? I could care less what you think. Especially in this specific thread regarding people just like yourself.

And you can't get much more factual than what is written in a historical document. What did you want photos? DNA sampling? You're not going to get you "proof".

[beam me up scottie]

193. This is NOT YOUR FORUM.AtheistsI have as much right to be here as you.

And YOU claimed that we couldn't accept the "fact" that some dude rose from the dead.

What did you expect, we were going to take your word for it?

This is a public forum.

When you insult my intelligence by claiming to have facts not in evidence, I'm going to ask for proof.

Maybe you should get out of the kitchen while the gettings good.

[Gregorian]

196. Two things-

Please go back to the original post in this thread. It's about people like you. I came in support of the original poster, who undoubtedly feels the same as I do.

Second, the Bible IS the proof. For me. You don't have to believe it.



You know something? I'm serious about this----I'm really sorry that in the name of a better America, things like this should divide us. I'm a lot less willing to stand shoulder to shoulder against Bush, when I realize that we're so divided that it's not worth the effort. I've never had to defend myself for my beliefs until I came to this forum. You can keep it.

[Az]

198. For you

For you the bible suffices. That is perfectly fine. But in free society you cannot insist it suffice for others. And that is the point.

We are serious about our issues too. We recognise your positions and rights. Please recognise ours.

Consider the first part of the first ammendment of the Constitution of these United States. It clearly states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". This is the first thing in the first ammendment our founding fathers saw fit to set down. It may be important.

Religion and belief are so important to individuals that the government has to recognise their right to believe what they will without coercion from the government. Once they start meddling in it all bets are off. Belief is something people will fight and kill over. It is something a freesociety cannot mandate.

[beam me up scottie]

201. You thought this was a church ?

Too bad.

The op posted a hateful and intellectually dishonest post.

You have every right to jump on the persecution wagon.

Oh, wait.

You already did that.

But if you don't want people to call you on your confabulations, don't insult us because we don't participate in your communal reinforcement.

YOU screwed up and instead of admitting the fact, you compounded it by climbing up on the same cross as the op.

That doesn't work here, in case you haven't noticed.

You have to back up your bullshit.

If you want an echo chamber, pick one of the groups that forbid dissent.

May the Space Alien bless you.

[Modem Butterfly]

205. "I've never had to defend myself for my beliefs until I came to this forum

Consider yourself lucky. There are a huge number of people in the US who constantly have to defend themselves for their beliefs, or absence of belief, every day.

I also want to point out that if this is the first time you've ever had to defend your beliefs, doesn't that fly in the face of the OP?

[trotsky]

206. *SNORT*

I also want to point out that if this is the first time you've ever had to defend your beliefs, doesn't that fly in the face of the OP?

LOL, good catch, MB. :rofl:

[Az]

172. Facts vs Claims

I don't know how much experience you have outside religious communities but I can assure you there are a large number of individuals that do not accept the authoratarian claims of the resurrection of Jesus.

Saying Jesus came back from the dead is a claim. On its own it does not rise to the level of being a fact. It may or may not have happened. But just from saying it did we cannot ascertain whether it did or not.

The fact that billions of people believe it happened doesn't make it so either. Entire populations have believed that Pharoahs were gods and that the sun rose and set at their command. This does not make it true.

The only documentation suggesting that Jesus rose from the dead is the bible and its a work with very faulty providence. Handed down through millenia of editors and translations the words we have before us are suspect on their own. Add to this the fact that the original authors were not contemporary to the supposed individual Jesus and we have a entire different problem.

There is simply no recorded notation of the existance of Jesus set down during his life. The stories revolving around his actions are gone from history. There is simply nothing corroborating his ressuretion. Not even his imprisonment and execution are recorded in a society that was rather anal retentive about keeping track of such things.

So the thing that occurrs to me is your claim of the resurrection being a fact seems to require evidence to back it up. Or is your statement one merely born of conviction of your faith?

[dwckabal]

173. But Az,

your "facts" are irrelevant when compared to the "facts" in the Bible. After all, it is the Word of God--that's why we still stone adulterers, don't eat animals that chew their cud (like rabbits) and don't wear clothes made of more than one type of material.

[onager]

174. Surely this is a troll...

The fact is, Jesus rose from the dead. What is so hard to accept about that?

Hey, my Uncle Max rose from the dead too! Unfortunately, I don't have any proof. Is that so hard for you to accept?

[Az]

176. Not so sure

We atheists and skeptics aren't exactly jumping up all over the place. I have run into countless people that are astounded that there are those that don't believe the same things as them. Then again I always remain open to the notion I am being played. But my way is to alway lead with trusting them until they prove otherwise.

Think of this as an opportunity. This may be a person that has never encountered real opposition to their beliefs in a situation where dialog can occur. To blow such a chance by taking easy shots seems to me to be a serious loss. And to turn their first real encounter with nonbelievers into a negative experience rather than a challenging experience just seems to miss the point.

[Gregorian]

181. The bible does contain facts.

It is a collection of historical and very accurate facts. Geneology from a thousand years back. Predictions that came true. I don't care what a billion people think. I do care about what a few people saw. And independently confirmed. Sometimes it doesn't take photographs to prove that something is fact. I accept as fact, what is in the bible as fact. Some is parable some is historical.


It's not for me to prove anything. This is an individual journey. I won't even mention where I learned what I learned. It wasn't someone like Pat Robertson, I'll just say that. I come from the mentality of the likes of Dr. Greg at the Stanford University Memorial Church. No BS study of the bible.

There is recorded notation of what Jesus did. And what he said. That is the heart of the bible. And what he did and said was beyond anything a human has ever said and done. That's just my observation.

You can believe what you want. Maybe Paul was just insane when he asked to be crucified upside down. Just little things like that. I can't do justice to such a complex book. Especially when I'm running out the door to my fence sitting Bush liker of a dentist who I have to try and convince that Bush is not his man of action that he thinks he is.

Noone can prove anything. Hell, we can't even agree that the arctic ice caps are melting. And Christianity has been debated for two thousand years.

[Az]

182. Um, perhaps some more research is needed

The bible is nowhere near the level of accuracy you seem to be suggesting. It gets history and places wrong all the time. It contains contradictions and mistakes all over the place.

As a matter of point it is not even consistant on what happened during the events that supposedly lead to the resurrection. It contradicts itself on this matter repeatedly.

There is something we have called the Easter Challenge. It is simply to read the gospels and from their text explain what happened during the crucifixion and the events that followed. Do this without leaving anything out or having any contradictions.

The notion that the bible contains nothing but facts is a religious conviction. It is not backed up by evidentiary process. The bible contains errors. Pure and simple. It has gone through countless translations and been edited by countless believers that desperately needed it to say the right things. It is a work with a hopelessly mangled providence.

The bible by itself cannot provide enough evidence of the existance of Jesus' resurrection to raise the event to the condition of being accepted as fact.

[Gregorian]

188. I'm sorry.

My perception (and I'm as liberal as anyone, so don't misinterpret the word. Liberal seems to have a negative note to it these days. But not to me.) is that liberals are looking for a mathematical formula. It isn't going to happen. There are errors, there are contradictions, there are all kinds of things in a book written by many many people. I look at the entire thing in context. In engineering there are different ways to approach solutions. There can be a precise mathematical accounting for every step in a process, or there can be an overall energy summation of the beginning and end stages. The bible has both. You can achieve the same results either way. I don't look at the literal details as much as the collection and sum of them. If the life of Jesus is a fact, then I find it pretty hard to pick and choose which of the accounts regarding his life are true or false. I believe that people had very good reasons for writing their accounts. There is also a bigger picture that is like a unified theory in physics. The predictions that were fulfilled; The statements that were made that are universal truths. The predictions that were made that have not yet come true, but appear to be coming true.

I'm sorry. If you're looking for proof in the way that you are, you'll never find it. Even if the shroud of Turin were real, it wouldn't prove much of anything. It's the words that were transcribed, and the historical documentation by those who were there that ultimately is one of the stongest pieces of evidence. That and a world that could never have just happened on it's own. But that's another can of worms people love to play with. It is not my place to convince anyone of authenticity, or proof. But I'll say one thing- not knowing that there is a God, is a pretty dark existence.

[Az]

189. Dark existance

Let me start with your last statement. I can assure you that I and numerous atheists do not consider our lives without god to be the least bit dark. I myself have never believed in god but the accounts I have heard from those that did at one time believe suggest that letting go of it was a tremendous relief. It was as if they were freed. Of course neither your nor their emotional response have any direct bearing on what is actually true. But it is worth noting that there may be other answers.

As to your comments about the bible. It certainly is an interesting book with both the profound and the profane. The fact that you find it to hang together as a whole may suffice for you but it in no way raises the credibility of the book enough to establish it as evdence that Jesus rose from the dead. It is suspect in many ways for that purpose. And the notion of Jesus rising from the dead being factual is the entire focus of this conversation.

As to the prophecy aspect we could spend eons discussing that. I have volumes of information indicating failed prophecy. We could sit here and trade shots on the matter and in 20 years we would not progress. This alone discredits the bible for the purposes of this discussion. Since you are trying to convince us that Jesus' resurrection was factual evidence that is contested by us currently is not going to be enough to muster our acceptance.

The fact is that there are a multitude of people in this nation that do not accept the resurrection of Jesus as fact. Trying to force it on them creates a social problem in a free society. It certainly gives the lie to the notion this is a free society at the very least.

[Gregorian]

192. All I have to do is read your first sentence.

Why are you responding to people in this thread? If you're an athiest, why are you in this forum. You don't believe. You don't need our comments. You've already made up your mind. And in the face of historical evidence. You won't get any better than that for a 2000 year old document. No photos of Christ ascending into heaven. No DNA samples.

Edit- I'd like to just say one more thing. It's the people who think they know the most who actually know the least. I don't know anything. And I certainly can't prove anything to you. But I have a very good sense that what is written in the bible fits into this world with extreme accuracy. Enough.

[Az]

194. Um

This forum was established for the discussion of religion and theology. Specifically because of conversations between atheists and theists. It is the place where we have our controvercial discussions with each other. I and other atheists have been part of this subgroup since its creation. Please do not tell me to take a hike.

As I pointed out our side has a particularly long list of problems with the bible. Both internal and external. As a document it does not stand up to scholarly levels of reliability. There was a group called the Jesus Seminar that recently tried to ascertain to what degree of reliability the bible was regarding the words of Jesus. They found that the bible could only be relied on to about 9% of what it claimed were the words of Jesus. This was not a group of atheists. It was a group of 100s of bible scholars.

No one is asking for photos or anything unreasonable. The claim you made was that his resurrection is a fact. Back it up. Show some evidence outside the religious text to back that statement up. That is the nature of a fact. In order to accept it as one you need to provide enough evidence to back it up. If you can't then you have to take back the statement. This doesn't mean you cannot continue to believe it. Merely that it is not established as a fact sufficiently to demand our acceptance of it.

[Gregorian]

195. You're asking for too much.

Back it up. Well, that's where I began. The Bible. There is your evidence. If that's not good enough, then nothing is good enough. To me, it's good enough.

[Az]

197. I can think of plenty that would be good enough

Keep in mind we are not arguing about whether your beliefs are right or not. We are merely discussing whether a blanket statement like "Its a fact that Jesus rose from the dead" is acceptable or not.

There are many ways that it could be demonstrated that Jesus rose from the dead without relying directly on the bible. Records were kept of those imprisoned and executed. Yet we have never been able to find record of Jesus being executed. We can't even find official record of his existance.

Witness testimony written down at or near the time of the incident by someone outside the belief system would be nice. Again we have nothing of the sort.

No written records of his execution, arrest, or internment. No eyewitness testimony outside the bible. And even the bible refrences have been proven to be recorded decades after he supposedly was executed.

It just doesn't stand up to sufficient standards to readily be accepted as fact. It may or may not have happened. The evidence is lacking to convince. It becomes a matter of faith and belief. You believe it others don't.

[Gregorian]

199. I just read your profile.

I don't debate.

[Az]

200. Never said you had to

This is a free discourse. We likely share a great many ideas and beliefs. We also happen to have some issues we differ on. We learn things about others by discussing things. The entire point of this conversation has been to let you know that there are other ways of thinking and they are just as valid as yours.

[beam me up scottie]

202. You don't debate?

Then what are YOU doing in this forum?

You've got your nerve telling atheists we don't belong in here and expecting us to shut up and sit down after you insulted us.

Here's a tip, if you want to hide from the evil atheists, don't do it in a forum.

Try the groups, some don't welcome dissenting opinions and will actually ban anyone who doesn't agree with the appropriate memes.

[onager]

203. Yes, and I can see WHY you don't debate

:rofl:

[trotsky]

204. "Homosexuality is wrong."

It's in the bible, you know. There's your evidence. If that's not good enough, then nothing is good enough, and you should just leave this country to the fundamentalists who wish to make THEIR interpretation of your bible the law.

[salvorhardin]

184. The mangled fables in the bible are no more facts than chemtrails.

Both are just stories that people tell to delude themselves into thinking they know what it's all about so they don't have to do the hard work of actually trying to figure out hwo the universe works.

BTW: This reminds me. No one has taken me up on my chemtrail challenge. I can only assume the chemtrail believers are all just wankers who like to sit around and tell stories. The offer still stands.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=111&topic_id=29628&mesg_id=45250

[Az]

185. Its not necissarily about figuring out

It is far more reasurring to have a universe that can be readily explained. Not just the physical aspects of it. But the spiritual aspects too. Why do bad things happen to good people. Why is their suffering. Because just doesn't satisfy some.

Good or bad, people want to understand why things happen. Whether it is a benevalent god or a nefarious secret conspiracy. The idea that someone somewhere is controlling things gives people some sense of the universe that they can either take strength from or find strength to confront.

[FM Arouet666]

175. A question, were you under the influence of LSD

jesus rose from the dead? I have seen more dead people than probably anyone on DU, kids torn apart in auto accidents, old people dead from cancer, suicide, murder death death death. Don't think I have ever seen anyone rise from the dead. Never heard a burning bush speak, never seen anyone walk on water. Nope, no fantastic cures, no miraculous loaves and fishes. What is so hard to accept. It does not exist. It is all a myth from two thousand years ago.

I have seen science cure the ill and infirm, I have delved into the inner workings of the world through science, and have realized that the natural world is our reality. No demons, gods, ghosts, or spirits.

The sooner humankind comes to this realization, the sooner there will be unnecessary death in the name of a myth. :evilfrown:

[trotsky]

177. Two questions.

1) What, in your opinion, makes something a "fact"?

2) What, in your opinion, constitutes "bashing" Christianity?

[BiggJawn]

183. What is so "hard to accept about that"?

Ummmmm....Oh, I dunno.....

Maybe the LACK of a verifiable PROOF?

I would love to start a fan club for Benjsmin Hoff's "The Tao of Pooh", then come back in 2000 years and see what kind of religion took hold from that.

Hey, the "Fact is" Winnie-the-Pooh achieved Enlightenment in the 100-acre Wood. I have a BOOK that PROVES it!