Test yourself: How do you feel when someone is described as 'Christian'?

[BurtWorm]

What if the person being described is Glenn Beck?

[Hosnon]

1. Fake. But that likely stems from my upbringing as a Southern Baptist.

I've had to work hard at rewiring my brain to not be so judgmental.

[Deep13]

2. If it's so important him that he has to tell me...

...it makes me feel uncomfortable and I would rather not associate with that person.

If it were Glenn Beck, I would need to resist the urge to cause him some harm.

[Bitwit1234]

3. NO WAY to me a Chjristian

is someone who trys to do for their fellow man. They help people regardless of their race or religion or how much money they have in the bank.

Thats why I get so upset when you see all the republicans such as Palin and Bachmann say they are Christians and then slur and lie about people.

[BurtWorm]

5. Do you consider yourself a Christian?

[get the red out]

4. I shudder a bit

I think that they are someone who is intolerant of anyone except a narrow group of people right off the bat and I figure that they will be difficult to get along with. Judgmental on my part, but it is just automatic, my first thought. I try not to act on my first thought and treat the person as I would if I had received no description at all of them.

[LiberalLoner]

14. That's my first reaction too. And I consider myself a Christian, too...but

not one of "those" Christians. Not the type to go around telling someone the first time I meet them, "I'm a Christian."

[Igel]

49. I heard or read something about the role of religion in the US.

The research had dealt with social networks, shared values and assumptions, and how networks were formed among strangers in 19th and early 20th century America. The caveat was that you could be easily flim-flammed (which is a period-appropriate term), and it wasn't until the risks trumped the benefits that this ended to a large extent.

If you go into another town and you're a businessman with fairly conservative business practices seeking people in town that you can trust and do business with, you're going to try to find people that share your values. If "left-handed eyebrow-plucker" is an organized group with specific standards of behavior shared by most members of the group, mentioning at a bar or diner that you're a "left-handed eyebrow plucker" will prompt any others to name themselves as members of that group. You've identified a set of people that likely business partners are drawn from. It's a way of leveraging social capital.

There are people here who use "Democrat" in precisely the same way: Soon after making an acquaintance they identify themselves as Democrats, and if the other party says he's a repub then the acquaintance tends to not progress. You don't trust them. When * was prez, it was easy to spot a likeminded person by saying something nasty or positive about *--if you got a strong objection, you'd wander off. Others use not political party, but sound out attitudes on the environment, race, global warming, or even meat-eating. Some just they use race, which is a handy marker for culture. In my neighborhood the Latinos and blacks don't hang together as they grow into their parents' cultures, and by the time they're actively engaged in identity formation they're pretty much at odds with each other. At conferences I've seen people identify themselves by kind of theory and immediately "grow" friends or be dropped by the group they had tentatively associated with.

In many societies where the idea of the nation-state is relatively recent or the underpinnings of a tribal society weren't sufficiently undermined by education or religion people tend to trust family, clan, or tribe far more than outsiders; in some of these societies you actually have competing systems. So in Anbar Province, Iraq, you'll ID yourself by clan and then tribe; *or* you'll identify yourself by religious subgroup, an identification that cuts across clan/tribal lines. It depends which identity you consider more important, which identities you have access to.

That's how it is in the US: We use different things to self-identify and help sort out who to trust and who not to trust in the scores of people we meet each day, what networks for form for which purposes. Strangers on the street are of less importance than people we do brief business with, but we still eye up strangers and form provisional judgements; they're less important than people who might become close friends or extensive business with. I find it helpful when somebody identifies themselves first and foremost as a Christian; the term has meaning, and is every bit as important as whether they say their accent is Serbian or Finnish, whether they say they're anarchist-nihilists (bad in a business partner) or a gardener.

One term in grad school when I was broke, couldn't afford a hair cut, and since I biked to school my hair was like Phyllis Diller's. I *could* afford a rubber band to pull back my overlong hair into a little pigtail--I saw other men do it, didn't give much thought to it. The first day I did this on campus both a conservative Republican Southerner and a Californian anarcho-socialist rebuked me for sending the wrong message. To this day, I don't know what the message was, but both knew me fairly well so I took their word for it. (We were all "Slavists" and the roof was more of a uniter than anything outsider of the departmental office). My pigtail served as public notice of some set of attitudes or values, just having somebody say "I'm a Christian" would.

[dkf]

6. Am I supposed to be slamming Glen Beck here?

Christian, Mormon, Muslim, Buddhist, whatever. All religions are one.

[BurtWorm]

7. No, you're supposed to be asking yourself how the description 'Christian' makes you feel.

[rfranklin]

9. When they profess it loudly, I think of Jesus...

and his comments about the hypocrites who pray vocally and visibly in the street.

[atreides1]

15. The same way if someone said they were Superman!

Until they prove it to me, I'm not buying it.

[dkf]

19. Like I said, Christian, Muslim, Mormon, Jewish, whatever.

Religion is religion.

[Curmudgeoness]

8. Doesn't matter who the person is who is described as

Christian, my first thought is that they are self-righteous and most likely hypocrites. No true Christian would preface a description of themselves as Christian. They shouldn't have to announce it to the world, we should be able to see the peace and goodness in them.

Glenn Beck, I don't see the peace and goodness. Sure is easy to SAY you are Christian.

[BurtWorm]

12. Now we're getting to my ulterior question.

Compare the way you feel about the idea of 'Christian' with the idea of 'Muslim.' Please be honest with me. It seems clear that you hear 'Christian' as an ideal way of being, a good way of being. Do you hear the same kind of tone when you hear 'Muslim?' Does 'Muslim' describe someone who is trying to do good the same way 'Christian' does? Do you notice a difference?

[LiberalLoner]

16. ah, that's interesting...well in my case, I actually have a worse reaction

to "I'm a Christian" than I do "I'm a Muslim." I haven't ever actually had bad experiences with a Muslim person, but I have had bad experiences with people who are in-your-face about being Christian. Yes, I know, the terrorists, but I understand very well that the terrorists were just a small group of criminals. I know the vast majority of Muslims are good people.

[Curmudgeoness]

20. Ouch. You made your point. Although

on a personal level, I don't have any problem with Muslims and believe that they can be just as hypocritical or just as good as any other religious people. But....that first thought in my head is not a good one if I am honest.

[BurtWorm]

25. You are far from alone even on the left--even among people who don't consider themselves believers.

This is a very deep prejudice in the West. It's interesting to note. I think about it every time I see people (especially nonbelieving people) challenge the notion that right-wingers can be Christians. It becomes clear right away that a majority of Americans, certainly, conflate "Christian" with "good." It used to be used in exactly that way. (People also used to say "that's white of you," when they meant "that's good." People are careful not to say that anymore!)

[Curmudgeoness]

33. Don't misunderstand, although I do equate Christian

with "good", that does not mean that I equate the term Christian with the ideal of "Christian". This is why I think that someone who announces that they are a Christian is a hypocrite. My Muslim prejudice is more recent, I believe, with all the fear of "extremists" shoved down our throats. I never thought about it one way or the other in the past.

I will admit that I am an atheist. I have no belief in anything supernatural. But I always make a joke that I am a Christian atheist---and this is because I do believe that Jesus held to the same principles that I believe in, and he was willing to call out the hypocrites and praise the truly good and decent people. Christians are always offended by my description of myself. But...Christian means follower of the philosophy of Christ, so I think it is appropriate.

[BurtWorm]

34. I'm skeptical about the actual existence of Jesus, so it doesn't have the same meaning to me.

I've come to believe that 'Christian' is in the eyes of the beholder, which is why I don't bat an eyelash when I hear that Glenn Beck thinks he's a Christian. Who am I to tell Glenn Beck how Christian he is? I know for a fact he's a moron, but I take his word for it he's a Christian.

[Curmudgeoness]

42. LOL, facts vs theories and beliefs. I agree with you.

You are taking the "judge not lest you be judged" thing to heart. Good for you.

[Igel]

50. I'll interlope.

I like that question. Hadn't thought about it.

I take "I'm a Christian" and "I'm a Muslim" differently in most contexts because I've mostly heard them in different contexts, with different consequences and intents.

"I'm a Christian" has usually been volunteered early in an acquaintanceship to find like-minded people in a group, to establish a rapport. If you don't respond, the acquaintanceship may not progress but doesn't end most of the time. If you say "I'm not," there's some condescension but I've not been treated as less than I was--just not as more than I was. This use is probably likely because most of the people in the group would be Xians in some sense, culturally or religiously. "I'm a Christian" doesn't mean "I'm a Christian"--it means, "I'm an evangelical Christian of a reasonably but probably not absurdly conservative stripe--are you?" If you response, "I am, too," they may decide that your answer wasn't irrelevant if you're not the same kind of Xian. Nonetheless, you still want to hang with like-minded people, even if the distance between you and others in the group isn't that large. Attempts to be friendly to "I'm a Xian" types, in my experience, are usually met with friendliness and even reciprocation when they realize that not saying "I'm a Xian" doesn't mean "I'm a devil-worshipper and have really evil, icky things planned for you."

I've been around enough "I'm a Xian" type to consider it harmless and neutral. It gives me useful information. The only harm or actual condescension I've gotten from any of them dealt with theological wrangling with new converts eager to save li'l ol' me, the Judaizing heretic.

"I'm a Muslim" has usually been volunteered early in an acquaintanceship--in my presence--to avoid others, to sever possible rapport and establish distance. If another person says, "I'm a Muslim, too," you get the kind of bonding that would happen between two "I'm a Christian" folk, but they've separated out more. Mostly "I'm a Muslim" types have been immigrants or children of immigrants, and they chose "Muslim" over the equally available ethnicity. "I'm a Muslim" then, in my experience, has meant something more along the lines of "I'm a Salafist." Such have usually treated me as less than an evangelical Xian being told I'm not a Xian would have. We're not talking not being asked to join a group for coffee. We're talking about having the person refuse to meet your gaze or shake your hand. Usually others who say, "I'm a Muslim, too" aren't the right type of Muslim and meet the same fate.

While I haven't been around the "I'm a Muslim" group very much, I don't consider it entirely harmless or neutral. I still consider it useful information. I count the mildest Salafism to be as bad as fairly virulent evangelism in terms of how it wrecks camraderie.

Then again, "I'm a Muslim" usually has not been volunteered around me in circumstances when there are other Muslims in the group. When their religions was important there have usually been visual clues and then they self group, if it's important to them. In other words, the conditions under which "I'm a Christian" and "I'm a Muslim" are uttered are different, so of course they have different meanings and intents. The utterances have, in my experience, played different roles both within the group and within the relevant faiths.

I exclude instances of saying "I'm a ____" when it's clearly a relevant reply: Then "I'm Muslim/Xian/vegan/Buddhist/etc." is entirely appropriate and have the same value. Also instances when it serves as an ice-breaker and something needs to be said, so why not say either the utterly obvious or the utterly unexpected: "Hi. My name is Alon Shalit, and in spite of my kippa I'm a Xian." "Hi, Alon. My name is Aisha Sidiya, and I'm a Muslim" can start a fascinating discussion.

[Angry Dragon]

51. When I hear Christian or Muslim I hear the same

Two different kinds: Christian and christian

Two different kinds: Muslim and muslim

The first one in each set try to live their lives as true believers.
The second one in each set use their god to justify their hatred and ignorance.

If one uses religion to define themselves, then they are the ones that should be feared.
If one uses themselves to define their religion, they are at least trying to better themselves
and should be heard for they have taken the time to question.

[AndyA]

10. A true Christian wouldn't feel the need to identify themselves in that manner.

That would be considered bragging, and that isn't a "value" in the Christian world.

Christians do things to help others, they don't do it to get credit they do it because it's the right thing to do. They don't judge others, they don't condemn others, because The Bible tells them it is not their place to do so.

Christians practice tolerance and pray for those who they feel need help, but they don't condemn them or do things that they wouldn't want done to themselves.

I don't think there are many true Christians left in this world. Glenn Beck is certainly not one, and he's partly responsible for christianity getting a bad reputation, because so many hate mongers say they're christians, yet they don't maintain any real christian values.

[BurtWorm]

13. Are you Christian?

[AndyA]

21. I try to be. In this day and age, it's hard. n/m

[BurtWorm]

28. Do you ever wonder if Muslims say 'I try to be Muslim?'

[AndyA]

38. No, I don't.

What's your point?

[BurtWorm]

40. Just an interesting difference, isn't it?

In other religions, "good" believers are called "pious." Christians used to use the same word--maybe they still do in other countries. In this country though, "Christian" is thought to be something to aspire to--not piety or goodness or devotion. It's as though Americans--usually left-ish Americans--don't view themselves as worthy of being called Christian just on the basis of what they believe, but on the basis of some ideal Christianity. And this leads them to dismiss right-wing Christians.

Oddly enough, one of the precepts even I, as a non-believer, knows Jesus is supposed to have preached is, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone," and "Judge not, lest ye be judged." And even "Physician, heal thyself." But a lot of American Christianity--maybe it's the same in other largely protestant countries--is obsessed with judging who is and isn't a "christian."

Seems a little weird to me. Interesting at least.

[AndyA]

46. That's why I said the things I did in my first post.

And that's also why part of me doesn't want to be identified as a Christian, because so many automatically think of the judgemental, hate-filled religious right as representative of that group, and to me that's not what it's all about.

I try not to judge others, but sometimes it's hard, especially when they throw themselves out in the public and say things intended to disrupt. But then again, my opinions are shared here on DU, or similar venues, I'm not on TV telling millions how awful someone else is.

Like I said, I try, but it's hard at times. I usually don't ask someone if they're a "Christian" or not, because I really don't care. That isn't something I would use to determine if I liked someone, or if they were trustworthy, or anything else.

[Ineeda]

17. I agree. And what really bugs me

is when businesses, like plumbers and electricians, etc. advertise that they are a "Christian" company. I would NEVER trust them to do work for me.

[spartan61]

11. At one time I thought that Christians were people of

love and peace. However, now when I hear someone is a "Christian," I think HYPOCRITE!!

[Terry in Austin]

18. About the same as when someone describes their bedroom habits

As far as I'm concerned, they can practice whatever they want -- as long as it's in private between consenting adults. Just keep it outta my face, thank you.

And Beck? Voyeur bait, basically.

[dkf]

23. Lol.

At first I read it as "bathroom habits".

[GliderGuider]

22. About the same as when I hear someone described as a Sikh or a Muslim or a Jain...

I think, "What does that have to do with anything?"

[Ozymanithrax]

24. Christian is a label that carries a lot of baggage...

but means different things to different people.

What did Ted Haggard and George Alan Rekers mean when they claimed to be Christian and taught homosexuality was a sin while hiring gay prostitutes? In those transactions, the prostitutes were the only honest men.

What did Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu (Mother Teresa) mean when she said she was a Christian?

It is the deeds not the label that make a person. I don't trust people that define themselves with a label.

[WhiteTara]

26. When someone tells me they are a Christian

I immediately hold my purse tighter and steel myself for their verbal hypocrisy.

[Zoeisright]

27. I tend to duck, because the 'Christians' I have known are mean.

And petty and vengeful.

[AldebTX]

29. Probably about the Same

As they feel when I call myself Gay.

[TlalocW]

30. When someone goes out of his way to describe someone else as a Christian

I tend to ask myself, "So what horrible personality/ethical defect does he have that being a Christian is going to make up for?"

TlalocW

[Ernesto]

31. IMHO.... It's like: Which gang are they in.

Who's colors do the fly? A Raiders fan? A Yankee fan? A Crip or a Blood? KKK? Teabagger?

[northoftheborder]

32. Christian

When the person described as "Christian" is a public persona, I feel great shame and anger that the religion I adhere to has been USED by that person and others to gain power politically. I was taught that we should pray in private, and that our good deeds, not words, revealed our faith. Christianity has been used for thousands of years for ill gain. Nothing new. But it still hurts those who have a private belief.

[Bonhomme Richard]

35. Skeptic. I'd rather find out on my own that a person is Christian. n/t

[BurtWorm]

37. And what would signs would you be looking for?

[Bonhomme Richard]

45. My understanding of those things that Jesus taught.

Honesty, goodwill, giving a hand to those less fortunate, non-judgmental, selfishness, no use for hate,....in general a good person or, at the least, one who is trying to be a good person.
I haven't met many Christians in my life though I have met a ton who said they were.
Raised Catholic by the way and in no way do I reach that pinnacle that I state except for the last part in regards to trying. LOL, it's getting harder and harder these days but as the Indian said in Josey Wales I "Endeavor to persevere".

[cleanhippie]

53. While I might agree with you, your description pretty much eliminates about 95%

of those that consider themselves to be christian.

[trotsky]

59. And that's even assuming you could get SOME kind of agreement...

as to what those teachings supposedly are. No two Christians seem to be in agreement. You'd think their god would care, especially since such disagreements have led to incredible violence.

[Cleobulus]

60. Your description of Christianity makes no sense...

You describe what would be a decent human being of any or no religion. This definition you choose for Christianity renders it meaningless as a religion.

[EC]

36. Do not trust and will not associate with person or business

if it is professed, because I see it as synonymous of Republican


Glenn Beck is just a clown...

[Iggo]

39. I feel like they're trying to give some asshole a pass.

And I'm almost always right!

[Curmudgeoness]

43. "Oh, but he's a Christian"! Well that makes it all better. But but

But...shouldn't someone who is a Christian be held to a higher standard instead of being allowed to live by a lower standard?

[DeSwiss]

41. Self-delusional. n/t

[ladjf]

44. I regret that they are victims of a social disorder. nt

[Axle_techie]

47. Depends on who is describing them...

[MorningGlow]

48. On my guard, because to me that's shorthand for "better than you"

and "automatically moral", neither of which is likely true. In my experience, the best, kindest, most generous, most ethical people are those who aren't "in your face" about their faith, whichever faith it is.

[frogmarch]

52. When someone is

described to me as being a Christian (or as a follower of any other religion) I assume the person being described is devout and that her/his religion is important to her or him. If it weren't, the person's religion wouldn't have been mentioned in the description; that is, unless the describer is the religous one. Anyway, when I hear someone being described as religous, I think, "Oh crap, not another one."

[jeepnstein]

54. Beck's not a Christian.

He's a Mormon. There is a difference.

[JerseygirlCT]

55. That's a tricky one, isn't it?

Mormons consider themselves Christians. Most (other) Christians do not.

[jeepnstein]

57. That's a fairly recent change for them.

I can remember a time when they were proud of their distinct identity. Now they want to be just another Christian denomination. The problem with that is they tend to change things around to suit their needs at the moment. It's very handy to have a "prophet" around who can make sure you change with the times.

[Goblinmonger]

58. Do Mormons believe in Jesus as the son of God?

Yes; therefore Christian.

I am never surprised at how people feel it is jot OK to treat one group so differently than how they want to be treated.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

56. I'd want to run like hell in the other direction.

If they have to mention it, then they are self righteous. And they will probably get around to telling me I'll go to hell. I live in a red state out in the country where everyone assumes that you are a christian and a particular type of that, and if you don't go to church, then there is something wrong with you.

[TexasObserver]

61. Dubious.

Since most of those in public life who say they're a Christian are heinous people with low morals, when one of them says he or she is a Christian, it does not suggest they're good people or moral at all. It suggests they're probably using the label to promote themselves and their agenda.

As for individuals, the same largely applies. I find that most who claim to be Christians have very little of the teachings of Jesus in their life. People like Beck, like Palin, like Romney, like Tom Delay, et al.