Did Jesus have brothers?

[K8-EEE]

My daughter says that a couple of bible passages refer to Jesus's brothers. In Acts Chapter 1:14, are they Joseph's kids with another baby-mama or did Virgin Mary have other Virgin Kids, or, was she not a virgin? Or by "brothers" did they mean it so loosely as to not mean "brothers."

[notadmblnd]

1. I'm pretty sure he had at least one brother- named James.

just google James, brother of Jesus and see what you can learn.

[Skittles]

2. I'm just curious

but why do so many people readily accept that Mary was a virgin? WTF? How could they possibly know or believe it?

[KILL THE WISE ONE]

5. she was examined by the "old lady" who confirmed her virginity was intact

[jobycom]

9. Had to do with a prophecy from Isaiah that was mistranslated.

There's some prophecy in Isaiah about a Messiah or king or maybe just a cool guy, I don't know. That prophecy said that this dude would be born of a young girl--I don't know Hebrew, I'm going off other people's work here--and the word for "young girl" was a bit ambiguous. It was translated even in Jesus's time as meaning "maiden," which to them meant virgin.

So Mary's virginity became a proof that Jesus was this great Cool Bloke prophesied about. By the time people realized that the verse really only prophesied a young girl, it was too late to change the story.

A couple of points. Needless to say, not everyone, and probably not the majority, believed it. There's evidence that Mary was called all the names you'd expect for an unwed mom (the evidence is second and third hand, in the form of stories not recorded until later).

Nothing said Mary had to be a virgin after she got knocked up--in other words, Isaiah (in mistranslation) really only said that some virgin would get knocked up, not that she would be a virgin after she got knocked up. But, since the other part of the Jesus birth-story was that he was the son of God, she pretty much had to stay a virgin after that, or else the immortal God fellow, who was never supposed to physically visit the Earth, would have to appear in some physical form to deflower her. And since you couldn't have Mary cheating on God, she was stuck being a virgin until Jesus was born, at least.

After Jesus was born, theologians began arguing that Mary herself had to be without sin, or at least Original Sin, or else Jesus couldn't have been conceived in her. So they came up with the story that Mary herself was conceived without lust, that Mary's dad sort of accidentally impregnated her mother without meaning to and without any lust involved (that's the real Immaculate Conception, btw, although most people think the IC is about Jesus's birth). Original Sin (think Eve) was a result of lust, and was passed on to all humans through procreation. Mary escaped this burden because she wasn't conceived in lust. Thus, she was worthy of bearing God Jesus. This is a Catholic belief, btw, and it's not in the Bible. I think most or all Protestants reject it. Catholics are more philosophical and try to work out the gritty details more than Protestants. Anyway, for Catholics, if Mary had later conceived children she would have been touched by Original Sin, so that's at least one reason she had to remain a virgin through her life.

And last point--Gods often visited the Earth and knocked up pretty virgins (think Percy Jackson) in those days, and some of these children became famous demigods, so people in Rome and Greece and Africa sort of had an expectation that if a god came down and created another little god, that the woman would be a virgin. Of course, she lost her virginity dallying with the god, but again, God god didn't actually physically appear to Mary. There were several heresies banned at the Nicaean Council in the fourth century (and later) that were based on the idea that Jesus was only a demigod, and not equal to the Father. As a further side note, some of these heresies were driven out of Rome and into Arabia and Mesopotamia, and may have had some influence on the early development of Islam, where Jesus is not a literal son of God, even if he was miraculously created by God. In 8th century Spain, Christians who first encountered Muslims believed Islam was one of these heresies, not a completely new religion.

More than you ever wanted to know, and probably more than anyone will read. :)

[Mnemosyne]

10. Excellent explanation, jobycom! And I read it all!

:hi:

[jobycom]

12. Thanks!

I did a lot of Mary research in grad school (hard to explain why, but she was an important figure in medieval Christian and Islamic debates) so I love getting the chance to actually use that research. :)

[BurtWorm]

18. What you left out is that the mistranslation was from Hebrew to Greek

It occurs in the Septuagint, the first century BCE Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures that was read in the Hellenic world.

A lot of people seem to miss the significance of this fact, the implication that Greek speakers (not Aramaic-speakers) were probably the earliest Christians.

[jobycom]

19. Probably not the earliest Christians, but the branch of Christianity that survived.

The earliest followers of Christ were the Jews around Palestine. James for a while was the most influential figure in the early movement, and at that time it was a sect of Judaism, not a separate religion.

By the time the Gospels were taking form, though, a couple of decades after his death, the religion had spread to the non-Jews, and after the Diaspora the Judaic sect of Jesus's followers died out, within a century or so of his death. Their writings and thoughts only survive in some of the Epistles, which are overshadowed by the Roman Christians, who of course spoke Greek.

So the earliest followers of Christ were Aramaic-speaking Jews (many of whom spoke Greek, too), but the version of Christianity that spread and survived was the Greek-speaking Roman church, which was becoming strong within a couple of decades of Jesus's birth.

Maybe you know this--I don't--but was the Greek translation made for Greek-speaking Jews or for Christians?

[BurtWorm]

20. It was allegedly commissioned by Ptolemy, the Greek ruler of Egypt

but it was the Bible of Jews in the Hellenic diaspora, including Philo (of Alexandria) and Josephus (of Rome).

Someone in this very forum was trying to tell me it was also widely used in Palestine, but I think that's not very likely. That would be like the The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo being widely read in place of Stig Larsson's original in Sweden. Even less likely, considering the sacredness of the source (and the difference between Greek and Aramaic as opposed to English and Swedish--or Hebrew and Aramaic.)

I'm not convinced that the earliest Christians were Palestinian Jews. I think it's possible that they were Hellenized Jews, somewhat alienated from the scene back in Jerusalem and very heavily influenced by Pagan thought.

[madmax]

14. I know some or most of it has been discredited

but, The DaVinci Code sounds much more plausible to me than the Virgin birth, Jesus was never married, that Mary Magdalen was a whore and not his wife.

[jobycom]

21. That idea goes way back, but there's nothing to support it.

It was just an idea someone came up with, like George Washington chopping down the cherry tree or Columbus believing the world was flat. It wasn't based on anything but story-telling. There really aren't any sources for Jesus's life. There are enough to put the lie to those who think he never existed, but they are all in the form of people who knew him, writing about him after he died. None of those mention a wife. It's kind of like arguing that George Washington really did chop down a cherry tree because there's no evidence he didn't, and it sounds like something he might have done. It's possible in the sense that anything is possible, but without any evidence to support it it's just a made-up detail someone thought would be cool. (btw, I really wanted it to be true and spent a lot of time once trying to come up with arguments it was, but finally realized there just wasn't any).

[wookie72]

30. Not so much

For me, it's not a matter of the virgin birth being literally true as the fact that I believe that people believed it. I doubt it was a virgin birth, but I believe that people attributed that to her. As for Jesus not marrying, there's no contemporary evidence that he was. And the Bible never claims that Mary Magadalene was a whore.

[DeSwiss]

33. It is part of the Eygptian religion's.....

...belief system that http://www.egyptianmyths.net/isis.htm">Isis was the virgin-mother of Horus. So in this sense it is a continuation of the http://www.archive.org/details/biblemythsandthe00doanuoft">foundational beliefs system that Christianity was based upon.

[lutherj]

3. Early gnostic legends stated that Jesus had a twin brother named Thomas Didymus.

Of course, your question assumes that Jesus was an historical figure, and not a myth.

[KILL THE WISE ONE]

4. the apocrypha and infancy text do hint at or imply it

From my Catholic schools memories that Joesph was a widower, and Jesus may have had older half brothers, other groups do not believe that Mary was or was not eternally a virgin and there may have been younger Brothers.
but it was 2000 years ago and definitive proof is not available.

[fob]

13. show us the birth certificate!

And not that damn certificate of live birth etched into a clearly forged stone tablet in a font that wasn't available until well into the time of the Spanish Inquisition!

[Yeshuah Ben Joseph]

6. OK here's the deal.

Mom was a virgin before I was born. After that, her marriage to Joseph was like any other marriage, and yes, I had brothers and sisters.

This is also mentioned in the Gospels, regarding My visit to the Temple in Jerusalem when I was 12.

"Whence hath THIS man this wisdom, and these mighty works? Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not ALL with us?" (Matthew 13:54-56).

[KILL THE WISE ONE]

7. So there we have it, when will you be returning ?

[jobycom]

8. Depends on who you ask.

The Bible refers to James as Jesus's brother, and it refers to other siblings.

Catholics say no, that any references to brothers is symbolic, as in 'we're all brothers and sisters in God's eyes." They believe Mary was a virgin until she died, and, unless this has changed, believe that Jesus exited her womb miraculously with destroying her hynum, so that when she ascended into Heaven, it was as a living human virgin.

Protestants (with maybe some exceptions) believe only that she was a virgin for Jesus's birth, and have no problems with him having siblings. James is generally recognized as his "half" brother (because of course Joseph was not Jesus's sperm-dad).

Muslims IIRC believe that Mary and Joseph were cousins, not married, and that Mary conceived Jesus miraculously without a father, so that Jesus was just a human, and had only one parent, but was still miraculous and perfect. I believe, and I'm too lazy to Google so someone can correct me, that they believe Mary died a virgin, which would mean she had no children. She is mentioned more in the Qur'an than in the Bible, and is the only woman with a chapter named after her.

Historians who parse the Bible and treat it as an historical document usually believe that James, at least, was Jesus's brother. James went on to become the leader of the Christian sect of Judaism in Jerusalem. Historians generally see, from the Bible, that two branches of Christianity emerged in the decades after Jesus's death. At first, Jesus's followers were Jews, and Christianity was another sub-group (Cult, but that word has negative connotations outside of academia) of Judaism, like the Sadducees or Zealots or Essenes. James was the head of this group, based in Jerusalem, but it spread throughout Palestine and the Roman Empire. The second group became more popular and Saul/Paul, who became the Apostle for the Gentiles, instructing non-Jews that they could also worship Jesus without having to adopt all Jewish habits. Eventually, this group became dominant, and the Jewish sub-group of Christians died out or was absorbed into Christianity. James, Jesus's brother, was executed in Jerusalem two decades after Jesus's death. Before that, he was at odds with Paul over influence of the religion. (Imagine, you're the brother of a major religious figure most people see as a god, and some dude who never met him comes along and claims to know your brother better than you, and takes over your church. It could not have been pretty).

So, take your pick. :)

[Journeyman]

11. Yes. Matty and Felipe Alou. They both played outfield and first base. . .

for a variety of teams in the '60s and '70s. Both were arguably better players than Jesus Alou, but there was no doubt Felipe was the best of the three.

[madmax]

15. You are soooo bad ;-) nt

[K8-EEE]

16. THANKS DU-ERS FOR THE INTERESTING INFO!!!

DUers are the fountain of knowledge on every subject!!

[Howler]

17. four brothers.

I thought I remembered a show I saw on T.V about the historical Jesus.
This is the first thing i found on the internet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus

Jesus' siblings
Main article: Desposyni
Jesus had brothers and sisters, as reported in Mark<46> 6:3<77> and Matthew 13:55-56.<78> The Gospels name four brothers, but only James is known to history. After Jesus' death, James, "the Lord's brother",<79> was the head of the congregation in Jerusalem<46> and Jesus' relatives seem to have held positions of authority in the surrounding area.<80> The Christian doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity has long obscured the recognition that Jesus had siblings.<81[br />

[AlecBGreen]

22. my POV

I have a hard time reconciling the idea that Mary was a virgin. She & Joseph were married!

"so...uh, hey. This is like, ya know, our honeymoon. You wanna...uh, do it?"

"actually Im kind of saving myself Joe..."

No way. That is more unbelievable to me than God becoming incarnate in man. I think he had brothers and sisters (by blood).

[Goblinmonger]

23. So do we assume Jesus was real to answer this?

Because, then, yes he did unless Joseph started shooting blanks.

If we go with the fact that there is no evidence for a historical Jesus, then I would say that the mythology makes more sense and is more compelling if Mary was a virgin and had no further children.

[K8-EEE]

24. I don't assume he is real, no, just asking re: The Official Story

Since I was taught Mary was "ever virgin" I was wondering if the other kids had spirit dad too. Or what.

[Goblinmonger]

25. From my days in the Catholic seminary...

the explanation we "discussed" is that the translation is off. Brothers was actually based on a word more akin to "cousin." He had relatives but no siblings. Catholicism is pretty big on keeping the virgin side to Mary, but, if my memory serves, some of the conservative protestant sects are fine with the virgin thing stopping after Jesus and the more liberal protestant sects are OK with the whole virgin thing being not what we think of as virgin but more not previously having had a child.

[wookie72]

31. "the fact that there is no evidence for a historical Jesus"

That's stretching it a bit.

[onager]

26. You damn heathens! He had FIVE brothers!

Even a Fundamentalist Atheist like me knows that...

As we rush around shopping malls this holiday season, many of us forget the true meaning of Christmas.

2000 years ago, Christ was born on this very day. Our Lord did not come into this world alone.

He had His mother and five brothers who all had long white beards and wore red hats with white wool piping.

Now, these brothers didn't get along with their new sibling Jesus at first. One brother threatened to hit Jesus over the head with a Wimbledon trophy. Another brother tried to convince his camel to eat Jesus.

But one special brother, pictured in the right corner, simply hoisted a lamb over his head and said, "Eh, who cares." After about a week, Jesus' bearded brothers all passed away of mysterious diseases...except for one.

That brother's name was Santa Claus. And, you guessed it, he was the short-sleeved one with the lamb.

And that's the reason we wrap gifts in colorful paper and bring trees indoors this time of year.



http://www.jesusoftheweek.com/jesii/202/index.html

[GoneOffShore]

27. Was Jesus even a real person?

Or just made up by some guys to start a cult. The same way Joseph Smith or Ron Hubbard did.

[PufPuf23]

28. James the Brother of Jesus: The Key to Unlocking the Secrets of Early Christianity and the Dead Sea

Good book by Robert Eisenman on early Christianity.

[_ed_]

29. Did Ba'al have a brother?

Did Thor? Muhammed? Amon Ra? Zeus?

It's like looking for historical truth in Aesop's fables. It's all made up. Jesus of Nazareth of the Bible is as real as the tooth fairy.

[laconicsax]

32. +1

[meeshrox]

34. His brother's name was Craig...

heard of Stephen Lynch? He's a comedic genius and famed theologian! If you're brave enough, look up the song Craig Christ!

I don't happen to believe in any of this stuff, but really...so the story goes that Mary was a virgin when she conceived Jesus but that doesn't mean she remained a virgin her whole life! Ok, to close with a great quote (Kevin Smith, also a great theologian!) I really don't mean to offend, just something to think about!

Rufus: Mary gave birth to CHRIST without having known a man's touch, that's true. But she did have a husband. And do you really think he'd have stayed married to her all those years if he wasn't getting laid? The nature of God and the Virgin Mary, those are leaps of faith. But to believe a married couple never got down? Well, that's just plain gullibility.

[cleanhippie]

35. .