Am I An "Islamaphobe"?

[Bragi]

Reading the threads here, I am now confused as to whether I am or am not an Islamaphobe.

Here is what I believe to true:

- That the vast majority of Muslims, like most people everywhere, are of moderate sensible and peaceful disposition. However, they don’t get their moderation from their religion, that’s just human nature.

- That freedom of speech in America means that anyone can criticize or even insult any religion they wish, including Islam.

- That anyone offended by the free speech of others has a right to respond in kind, but no-one has a right to threaten or do harm to anyone to stop them from exercising their right to free speech, or because they feel offended.

- That anyone who threatens or does harm to anyone because they feel offended by the free speech of others must be held accountable for their actions to the full extent of the law.

So does that make me an Islamaphobe?

- B

[ret5hd]

1. Are you implying that Muslims are of moderate sensible and peaceful disposition...

in spite of their religion?

[Bragi]

2. Almost all people are moderate and sensisble

I think religion has little or nothing to do with this seemingly universal human condition.

I also try not to be drawn into debates on which religion is most soaked in blood.

For me, they all are, yet people remain, for the most part, sensible and moderate.

[Bluenorthwest]

9. Interesting statement.

You opened this discussion and then say you try not to 'get drawn into debates' like the one you just began? How does that work?

[Bragi]

12. I didn't start this debate /nt

[Bluenorthwest]

14. You started the thread

and then said you would not be draw in to the discussion you did in fact open. Just saying. You bring it up, then say 'don't drag me into it'. That is what you are doing. Impossible to do what you want, discuss this but not discuss this.

[msongs]

3. your inference, he said nothing about spite nt

[Turborama]

4. They meant "despite"

Which can also be phrased as, "in spite of".

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/despite

[snagglepuss]

10. You're pulling that from thin air. The OP doesn't mention or imply either

term. According to the OP moderation is intrinsic to human nature.

[Turborama]

11. I'm not pulling anything from the air

Just clarifying what that phrase means.

Edited to state my actual opinion.

"they don’t get their moderation from their religion" is a broad brush misinformed statement.

Some do, some don't.

My Muslim brother in law was a really bad ass gangster until he became religious, which "modified" his behavior.

[snagglepuss]

13. Please quote the phrase which includes the word despite.

[Turborama]

15. "Are you implying that Muslims are of moderate sensible and peaceful disposition in spite of

their religion?"

[snagglepuss]

17. So your comment is referring not to the OP but to the first reply.

Point taken however how do you know whether the poster intended to use'despite' instead of 'spite'? Not that it makes any difference because the poster read something into the OP that clearly isn't there.

As to your brother being modified by religion isn't the point. People are often changed when they assume new beliefs. There are lots of examples in all religions of converts shedding destructive behaviour only to become religious zealots.

[Turborama]

30. Simply because of the context

"in spite" means the same thing as "despite".

Regarding my brother in law. It wasn't a "new belief", he was born a Muslim. What I said was he "became religious".

I'm an expat who has been living in Indonesia for 5 years. During that time I have met hundreds and come across probably thousands of Muslims so have 1st hand knowledge of what I'm commenting on.

[closeupready]

19. And he also implies that Islam is NOT a moderating factor.

In NO case.

[Bragi]

27. What I think is this:

People everywhere are generally moderate and sensible regardless of whether or not they adhere to a particular region, be it Islam or any other religion.

[sinkingfeeling]

5. If one subsituted any religion for the word 'Muslims' in your first point and you agreed to that

statement, then I would say you're not an Islamaphobe.

[Bragi]

8. I'd have no problem with that change

My reason for identifying Muslims in the first point is because I'm trying to assess whether my own views -- which I think are moderate -- make me an Islamaphobe in the eyes of some.

But I do believe that most people most places of any faith or non-faith are generally moderate and sensible, so I'd have no problem inserting in the first point.

[snagglepuss]

6. I believe many people make that inference. It's like accusations

of anti-semitism for those who criticize Israel.

[mmonk]

7. No.

However, there is a danger when political parties with access to power encourage hatred of American citizens.

[Turborama]

16. Maybe this question would be better asked in the Religion/Theology forum?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=214

[Bragi]

20. Good way to bury a conversation

As for your brother, I agree with the other poster: some people get religion and improve their lives. It happens regardless of which faith one chooses.

[Turborama]

31. Not really,

this forum is populated with a concentration of people who'll be probably more willing to partake. Also, GD threads are a lot more likely to get "buried" due to the exponential speed and amount of new OPs that get added.

With regards to my brother "in law", he was born a Muslim, getting more religious/going back to his religion "modified" him.

I don't think I can make it any clearer than that.

"they don’t get their moderation from their religion"

[Bragi]

32. Okay... /nt

[closeupready]

18. Yes, the first provision makes you Islamophobic.

n/t

[Regret My New Name]

22. How so?

[closeupready]

29. He clarified to state that moderation of views can never be attributed to any religion.

(and see Post #21) Therefore, I take that point back, and say no, he is not an Islamophobe.

[Bragi]

25. Why?

I make it clear that I think people are moderate and sensible regardless of whether they ascribe to any particular religion, Islam included.

If that's Islamaphobic, tell me why?

[closeupready]

28. With that clarification then, I would take it back - no, you are not an Islamophobe.

:hi:

[MindPilot]

21. I believe that is true of any religion--most people are good despite religion not because of it.

So I guess I'm not only an Islamaphobe, but also a jewophobe, a Christianophobe, a wicaphobe, etc.

Basically religion scares me.

[Arugula Latte]

24. Me too. My take is "a pox on all religions."

Basically all religions are harmful mythologies, in my view. However, I think people have the right to believe whatever non-fact-based superstition they want, and other people have the right to criticize these beliefs, and the religious people have the right to in turn criticize the critics, and so on. But just because something is billed as "faith" does not give it a sweeping "can't criticize" immunity, as some on DU want.

[trotsky]

34. Apply the same terms to me, then.

I feel the same way. The most decent believers are the ones who reject the ugly parts of their religion (and just about everyone one of them has plenty) and embrace secularism in the public sphere.

[SargeUNN]

23. Fact is that most beliefs came because

as society grew it became obvious to them to adopt more socialable basis. It is easier in most societies to attract people by offering them security and peace and religion figured it out long ago. The current extreme fringes of religion probably aren't as strong as they appear at times although probably larger than is normal, but it isn't uncommon. That is why the crusades and religious started wars, but as history reveals, the more religion mixes with politics the more both suffers and then it backs off.

[pscot]

26. I don't think you're an islamophobe

but then I tend to agree with the points you raise. The real issue is whether we enjoy freedom of speech or not? The answer is yes, but keep the ACLU on speed dial.

[DeSwiss]

33. No you are not an Isamaphobe in my view.

And if "we" are, then at least we're in good company. ;)