Why are our Christians so powerful, instrusive & generally out of control? I blame Clinton.

[Bucky]

Yes, that's right, I blame the early 19th Century New York governor and NYC mayor Dewitt Clinton who championed the construction of the Erie Canal. Nothing led to more pernicious American fundamentalism and general neoChristian gobbledygookery than the digging of the 350 mile long ditch between Albany and a-Buffalo-oh.

For all its intensity and emotional fervor, the First Great Awakening really only led to an increased spiritual passion among mainline Protestant denominations. Baptists were more Baptist and Methodists were more methodical, but no one was speaking in tongue or holding seances or predicting the end of the world. But the Second, oh the Second, Great Awakening--that's where the trouble started. That's where you got your Mormons, your Seventh Day Adventists, your Bible-babbling, chest thumping, street corner raving lunatic, bullying absolutists all clamoring for attention and desperately squabbling to be heard in the cacophony of hysterical voices that today we call fundamentalist Christianity.

And where was ground zero for this clamoring calamitous Second Great Awakening? Right there in western New York, in the "Burnt-over District" created by the sudden explosion of wealth and dislocated sociological chaos created by the construction of DeWitt Clinton's mad plan to create a direct water way between Chicago and Manhattan. Most historians recognize that the sudden explosion of Protestant fervor and outright religious hucksterism that sprung out of the Canal towns was a reaction to the vast social changes occurring in boom towns that totally lacked community traditions and established churches and other social regulators. The Americans of the early Industrial Revolution were witnessing historical lifestyle and economic changes at an accelerated pace--a rate of change unprecedented in human history. It was a fertile breeding ground for charlatans and prophets, for apocalypticists and atheists, and for geniuses and con artists.

It was not just limited to the economic flowering of New York state, of course. Other parts of the country in the early 1800s were also seeing vast population movements, technological changes, and mushrooming communities bereft of any anchoring religious traditions. In a turbulent sea of change, people seek stability--even if its the false certainties of Utopianists and NeoLuddites.

Is NeoLuddite an oxymoron?

Anyway, the point is, a nation defined by constant cultural innovation is naturally going to seek out philosophical innovation as well. A culture that revels in patent protections for engineers and inventors is going to give license to constant tinkering with theology. And if all these new theologies are going to compete, just like new inventions compete, for market share, the winners are going to be the ones with the most cut-throat approach to knocking out the competition. It's an unregulated market, a libertarian's ideal laboratory, the invisible hand of supply (namely, exclusivistic claims to divine revelation) and demand (for solace from the constant fret of economic insecurity).

If you can't sell a religion to a few dupes in this target-rich environment, it's probably best to get out of the preachin' racket altogether. Maybe find an honest line of work. If you've ever wondered why the US is different from the rest of the industrialized world, blame progress--unfettered, unregulated, unrestricted beautiful scary progress.

[stray cat]

1. Because they have worked at it for years unlike progressives who give up and whine

patience and persistence and real planning and cooperation

[Demeter]

2. The So-Called (Self-Denominated) Christians Were Out of Control for Carter

Of course, Carter asked for it, by putting his religion on the line in his Presidential run.


Before him, the putative Quaker Nixon was a warlord and terrorist. Jerry Ford, the Accidental President, was a decent enough man and better than average politician...

Eisenhower was a decent man, despite his military career, by all reports. Kennedy may have been Catholic, but he was a Cold Warrior, and a liability, which is why he was assassinated...

FDR may have been an elitest snob, but he knew how to count noses, and decided that discretion and a sop to the workers was better than a bloody revolution any day...even though he did send thousands of Jews to their deaths by refusing them sanctuary and asylum.

I can't possibly go as far back as Andrew Jackson....but that's when the Enlightenment began to fade.

[Bucky]

11. I don't get your reasoning

Eisenhower was a decent man, despite his military career

Ike was a decent man because of his military career. If you study history, you'll see that his mindset was very typical of soldiers of his era: they hated war and prepared to fight it mostly to protect the country from its effects. His parents were pacifists and he carried those values throughout his life.


Kennedy may have been Catholic, but he was a Cold Warrior, and a liability, which is why he was assassinated

Huh? Wha-? There is no conflict between Catholicism and opposing Soviet expansion. I can't make out if you're saying being a Cold Warrior or a Catholic was a part of being a liability. Either point would be silly.

Your conclusions about FDR are facile and delusional. I suggest you read more before you post comments.

[mrs_p]

3. interesting and well thought out analysis

fundamentalism is a relatively new concept in christianity and its rise here in the US definitely parallels the changes that came with our own industrialization. this certainly is a fascinating country in terms of its collective psychology when we can sit back and observe from the outside.

[Dragonfli]

4. When people can't tell myth from reality they will follow anyone that spouts the myth

When the myth is as destructive as Calvinistic pseudo-Christianity, they commit horrid acts against those that do not believe in the myth.
When it reaches that point they feel a sky being demands they enslave(convert) the others or simply kill them - we are now entering this last phase and it is historically predictable.

Why could they not believe in a pretend sky-puppy or fluffy cloud instead?
The "great Puppy" would only demand of them treats and kibble, not blood and oppression.

Personaly I think that if you can't tell the difference between myth and reality then you are mad and are a danger to yourself and others, but here the mad men are largely in power of our government and also much of the private sector.

Even our president believes some citizens should not have equal rights and should not be allowed to marry and live in peace.
He has been told by his invisible friend in the sky that some deserve to be second class citizens, that is how mad he and many others have become.

[beam me up scottie]

5. Interesting.

The taliban rose to power by manipulating the ignorant, they know that fear and uncertainty trump reason and knowledge.

The only antidote to fundamentalism is education, but it cannot be forcibly administered to people who choose to remain sick.

[TwentyFive]

6. In 1955, "In God We Trust" on currancy was mandated by a GOP controlled congress.

[TwentyFive]

7. In 2006, Jeb Bush made "In God We Trust" the official state motto for Florida.

[Iggo]

26. Are you fucking kidding me?

:rofl:

[pnorman]

8. Your title header threw me off at first!

Glad I stopped by anyhow, and checked it out!

[Bucky]

12. Thanks. I do that on purpose.

I'm sure you're not the only one thinking I was pinning it all on George Clinton and the Parliament Funkadelic

[pnorman]

14. I had just recently considered ordering "The Great Awakening" by Jim Wallis"

at Audible.com. that's what came to mind as I read through your article. I may not order it after all, since I now have enough key words to keep me busy Googling all day.

History, particularly American history, has always been a passion with me, and my tiny apartment is CRAMMED with books, magazines, and clippings. But they've all been barely touched for the past several years, thanks to the magic of the internet.

[burnsei sensei]

9. I don't think Christians in America

are out of control.
The problem they face is that Christianity has lost its authority in this country. It was bound to happen.
Now, if you really wanted to ACTUALLY control Christians, you might do what the majority populations of Egypt and Iraq have done. Believe me, they are truly in control of their Christians. Their Christians don't make too much noise at all.
I'm sorry, I just can't feel that things are bad where people are free to express themselves.

[Dragonfli]

13. I disagree, they wish a theocracy how is that not out of control?

[burnsei sensei]

15. The point is that they wish it.

Another point is that if they attempt to carry it out, they'd be committing a crime against the nation, Constitution, Bill of Rights, and Delcaration of Independence.
It seems you have more faith in your rage than in those documents.
The structure of the nation forbids their designs.
And they know it.

[burnsei sensei]

16. Excuse me, that's Declaration of course.

But you get my point. The establishment clause is the establishment clause is the establishment clause.
Get over it.

[Dragonfli]

25. They do more than wish it, they are working towards it incrementally

A good example is the office of faith based initiatives, even tho this violates the separation of church/state it still exists.
I recommend you read Chris Hedges, "American Fascists the Christian Right and the War on America" to understand more clearly how real their assault on our Democracy is and how they fully intend to rebuild the nation as a theocracy.

They are doing far more than wishing my friend.

[burnsei sensei]

31. Then the worst possible thing you could believe,

is that they'll succeed.
Don't give them even that.
Because then you've lost ground.

[Dragonfli]

34. My belief does not affect their actions, ignoring their actions gives them the power of cover

Reality is not faith based.
Faith in something does not make it real, learn that and your faith will no longer be the master of your reason.
I prefer reality over fairy tales. One is real the other a dream or a nightmare that clouds reason and can cause men to kill and/or subjugate others who do not "believe".

In reality we can find no excuses to do evil, only the will to do good or evil and you have to face responsibility for which one you choose.

[jonnyblitz]

17. you must be a heterosexual. nt

[burnsei sensei]

19. No. I'm not.

And there are plenty of queer people who are, in fact, Christians.

[DeSwiss]

30. Delusion can happen to anyone. n/t

[burnsei sensei]

32. It's not delusion.

It has to do with reading certain unsettling stories about the expropriation and persecution of Copts and other Christians in Israel (of all places), Egypt, Indonesia, Malaysia, Pakistan, Iraq and India.
Christianity is not the religion you join if you wish to remain secure in this world.
Worldwide, Christians have sustained much more persecution than is generally known.
If you think every Christian is Scott Roeder or Fred Phelps, you're just plain wrong.

[DeSwiss]

33. Riiiight.

The deluded always say that. The one's who have no idea what they're talking about, in particular.

[undergroundpanther]

10. The right wing are deluded..

Last week, after “more than an hour of solemn ceremony” swearing in Rep. Marco Rubio (R-FL) as House speaker, Gov. Jeb Bush stepped to the podium to tell “a short story about ‘unleashing Chang,’ his ‘mystical warrior’ friend.”

Below, courtesy of the Gainesville Sun, are Bush’s words, “spoken before hundreds of lawmakers and politicians”:

“Chang is a mystical warrior. Chang is somebody who believes in conservative principles, believes in entrepreneurial capitalism, believes in moral values that underpin a free society.

“I rely on Chang with great regularity in my public life. He has been by my side and sometimes I let him down. But Chang, this mystical warrior, has never let me down.”

http://thinkprogress.org/2005/09/20/jeb-bush-reveals/


http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/en/Aimee_Semple_McPherson
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/GrowingThreatOfRight-WingChristians.html

Christians on radio,origins of
http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/2/4/5/2/3/p245234_index.html

[swilton]

18. I don't think that religion itself that is the culprit

it is the politicization of religion by politicians like Jeb Bush and his family....I don't believe one whit that he or his brother believe the crap that they spew. If they do believe that crap, this is scarey.

[Bucky]

20. True, but...

If you have a thousand religions vying for people's attentions, the ones that are most hysterical, most controlling, and most radical are going to be the ones that get noticed and get influence. It's the very nature of any social movement to become louder and more desperate if it faces competition in the market place of ideas.

[WinkyDink]

21. Please use the term "Protestants." Thank you from my Christian RC heart.

[Bucky]

23. I apologize for any implication that Catholics [link] are out [link] of control [link] too

I apologize for any implication that Catholics are out of control, too.

[Adsos Letter]

22. Interesting read; however, regarding SDA's...

Their development was actually a function of the dissolution of the Millerite Movement following the "Great Disappointment" of 1844, which can certainly be associated with the end of the Second Great Awakening.

They definitely have a fundamentalist eschatology (although of the Historicist variant, rather than the current evangelical variety which is, I think, essentially Preterist).

Many people lump them in with our current crop of out-of-control, Constitution-bashing theocrats, but they are the opposite of that in terms of mixing religion and government.

SDA's have a well financed, well lawyered, department (Religious Liberty Department) whose primary focus is combating the erosion of Church/State separation, and defending SDA's (and others) who have experienced religious discrimination in the workplace.

Their eschatology posits an End-Times scenario in which "apostate" Protestantism and Government join forces to turn America theocratic, instituting broad persecution against those unwilling to conform.

You can certainly disagree with their fundamentalism, (and their schools definitely teach a combo of creationism and evolution) but it is inaccurate to lump them in with the out-of-control theocrats. They view the rise of theocracy as an End-Times waymark, and not in a positive way.

Declaration of the Seventh-day Adventist Church on Church-State Relations

http://www.religiousliberty.info/article.php?id=54

[Bucky]

24. True dat, but....

If I said the Millerites, no one would know what I'm talking about.

as per usual

[Adsos Letter]

27. True; but the SDA's don't really fit your profile...

and describing them otherwise does disservice to a denomination that is actively working against the goals of the out-of-control theocrats/etc.

[dimbear]

36. No worries. This is the theology forum, and we're all in the know.

Especially since they (Millerites) are the best example that the failure of expectations increases faith. A seeming contradiction.

[zentrum]

28. Go deeper.

Country was first founded by religious fanatics along with economic castaways. Religious obsession is in the touchstone of the nation from day one.
The Clinton canal is but one more episode in a history of religion-based convulsions. Remember the witch burning trials?

[lazarus]

35. no witches were burned at Salem

or anywhere else in America. They were hanged, drowned, and pressed to death, but not burned.

:hi:

[DeSwiss]

29. K&R!!!

And I want to thank the author for my new favorite word: "gobbledygookery"

;)