Is there free will in Heaven? Assuming for the moment that you believe.

[heidler1]

If not, will people like it? Will genetics still be a factor? Will there be elite classes of residents? Will revolts develop? Will God still indiscriminately strike down the probable instigators?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

1. I believe in heaven

but not as a physical place.

[ThoughtCriminal]

2. Are Heaven and Hell the same place?

Think about a place where you cannot have more than others, cannot make others do what you tell them, cannot inflict pain, cannot claim to be better than others. It's a nice place, but for Republicans it might as well be Hell.

[daninthemoon]

3. Interesting question, but way beyond me. Now you're messing

with my mind. My first thought is one wouldn't need free will, but thta doesn't seem right. You can't have everybody agreein about everything all the time, can you? One thing, I've always hoped Heaven would be a place of service/good works. Maybe I've seen "Wonderful Life" too many times, but I'd like to be Clarence rather than just kind of hangin out playin a harp. I do want to be eternally happy, though. Well, just let me go back to letting God sort it out. I got enough to deal with here on Earth.

[Az]

5. What needs doing?

Food? They need food in heaven? Oil? Furniture? What works need doing? Helping the needy? In heaven?

Forget freewill. What are you going to do with eternity. Think of something, anything that you will never get bored with.

Eternity. Imagine doing everything an infinite number of times. Tired yet?

[mzteris]

22. but what if what *I* want to do

drives *you* crazy.

What if what everyone else wants to do is ostracize "those" people?

What if what everyone else wants to do is play music - and you hate that?

What if what you want to do infringes on MY rights?

Or are we all going to live in our own little private bubbles?

[Igel]

4. Ouch. I think my views are just too distant to deal with your

questions, even hypothetically.

Doing my best:
Yes, people will like it. Or they won't be there. Sort of self-selected, at first, then deity-selected.

No, genetics will be immaterial.

Yes, there will be elites, but it won't be by income or inheritance, but by responsibility: if you can do more, you have greater responsibility. This makes for a hierarchy, which means there'll be higher ranked folk. If these be called elite, then there'll be an elite.

No revolts. At least among the relevant group. That resolves the probable instigator issue.

[Az]

6. Biology no longer plays a part?

What about people with brain disorders? Are they different people if they get into heaven? Or do their thoughts flow the same?

What about people that recieved injuries and had their identities severely altered? Which identity goes to heaven? What if the newest identity is nasty and due to the injuries no longer qualifies for heaven?

[Igel]

45. Well, the question was, I think,

about being in heaven. I'm not sure about any Xian sect that believes a flesh-and-blood body would follow us there. Mostly they deal in 'souls'.

My personal beliefs involve a resurrection, and no heaven--no 'immortal soul'. But also no physical body, as such, after resurrection: that implies a lack of nitrogen, oxygen, and carbon, even sulfur. So no DNA.

How people with severe brain damage and personality disorders fare under that scenario, I don't know. I've heard all sorts of speculation among people that mostly share my views, but it's all been without any sort of support, so I just say, "Dunno."

[heidler1]

16. "Yes, there will be elites" "if you can do more,"

This implies that there will be work to do. If there is work that has to be done I'd guess that the elite won't be doing it there either.

[mzteris]

23. Greater responsibility.......

to do -

What, exactly?

What needs "doing" in Heaven?

[Igel]

44. That's why I said my views were probably a bit distant.

I don't find any biblical support for the idea that we'll ever go to heaven. Or that those 'saved' (for want of a better word) won't be busy doing something.

I, for one, would hate to sit or stand around all day doing nothing, and the idea of doing nothing but contemplating God, while fine for the short term, would get a bit boring after the first few eons.

[ret5hd]

7. The REAL question is: "Does Heaven have a slaughterhouse?" ...

According to at least one fundie i work with, the answer is a definitive "YES". Wanna guess the line of logic he used to arrive at that bit of wisdom?

Well, since heaven is perfect, it will have available everything that he (my fundie coworker) enjoys here on earth. He enjoys steak. Hence, heaven has a slaughterhouse.

[patrice]

13. That's pretty sad!!!

Hare Krsna! Hare Rama!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

20. Jai Krishna ! Jai Shiva!

Remember Shiva's Dance, my friend. Do the Dance of Shiva-

Om Mahadeva!

[Old Mouse]

40. Do not be afraid. n/t

[MissWaverly]

8. Look I had this dream after my dad died

My dad was very abusive, and I dreamed about him after he died, he was in this place that was like the "Valley of Death" descriptions and every
body was passing him by to go up because they were better people, but the place where they were going = heaven was like here in that it was sunny with a blue sky and big fluffy clouds, but the difference is that
over there you can feel the presence of God in everything and his
presence is love. So God is not always planning how to one up everybody, he really is a loving God.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

18. the Love of God

is like the rain-it falls on the just and the unjust.

That was a beautiful dream. The feeling of God permeating everything is, I think, what is closest to reality.

[MissWaverly]

25. the weird thing is that full of grace means something over there

the goodness that you have inside, you carry over there and it gives you
beauty, those who just have clothes and looks but nothing inside look empty inside, they are lifeless while everyone else is energized, it's hard to explain.

[benburch]

9. Satan had free will...

if you buy that myth.

[Old Mouse]

39. satan did NOT have free will

but he had understanding of what he lacked.

[peace frog]

10. We have free will, period...

regardless of "where" we are. However in the spirit world you will know when you are or are not in tune with the Universe (god), and will come to understand that you are not "finished" yet. Knowing where (within yourself) you are not in tune with god will lead you to awareness of the personal goals you will want to accompish in your next life. Just MHO, of course.

[patrice]

11. You're assuming that "heaven" is some state of being comparable

to known states-of-being, ergo what you refer to as "free will", "like" or liking, "genetics", "elite classes", "revolts", and a reactionary "God" will be relevant.

If it is so much like here, why go?

[peace frog]

14. LOL Oh, you're "going" when you leave your physical body

in the state known on earth as death. You're going, alright.... see ya there! :hi:

[patrice]

15. Yep, I know, 'cause I've seen it a couple of times.

I'm not sure why my soul would strive for more of this though. I hope we are reunited with all of that from "life" that is part of what we really are, and we leave error behind.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

19. I hear you

The goal of a Sufi is to die before death...when one has tasted just a bit of Reality, it is sometimes hard to come back to this world. God willing, we will be able to become what is described in this poem:

Go sweep out the chambers of your heart
Make it ready, make it ready
To be the dwelling
Of the Beloved
When you depart,
Love will enter
In you, void of yourself
God will display God's beauties.

[patrice]

21. There isn't much to add to that.

One of the things that I am cautious about, yes even to the point of skepticism sometimes, is a belief that seems to be something like, "Give it to God and stop fretting about it. God loves you; don't worry, be happy".

I think I know "God" isn't just the biggest Warm-Fuzzy ever, and yet, I know too, that what your poem mentions "Of the Beloved" is also Real.

There is a poem by W.B. Yeats called Vacilation that has the following lines in it:

"...No longer in Lethean foliage caught
Begin the preparations for your death,
And from the fourtieth winter by that thought
Test every work of intellect or faith
And everything your own hand has wrought
And call those works extravagance of breath,
That are not suited for such as those who come
Proud, open-eyed and laughing to the tomb.

......................

Hare Krsna! Hare Rama!

[bigbrother05]

12. Heaven is a beautiful place

Where nothing,
nothing ever happens.
David Byrne

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

17. I'm a believer

but not in the concept of Heaven that you appear to have. My concept is that we go through several stages in which we leave behind grosser vibrations until finally we unite again with the One. This concept is discussed in many mystical schools, from the Seth books by Jane Roberts (I would suggest The Afterdeath Journal of William James as a good starting point for understanding the next plane from this one) and the writings of Sufi Inayat Khan, who gives the Sufi explanation - I believe you can find this information in The Soul-Whence and Whither?

Certain mystical schools assign practices to their students that can help them reach different states and planes.

[daninthemoon]

26. Seth is a demon

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

28. In Egyptian mythology

you are quite correct. But Seth was also the third son of Adam and Eve. There are a lot of Seths out there, and it is for each one to decide what each Seth is.

[daninthemoon]

32. The one that possesses/channels that lady...Demon.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

37. I find your conclusion interesting

How did you decide this?

Do you believe that just Seth is demonic, or that all channelled beings are demonic?

This is not meant to be a flame, or sarcasm. I am just curious as to how you came to this conclusion.

[daninthemoon]

56. Well... Don't know about channelling in general. About twenty years

ago, in search of spiritual awareness, I was lured to the seth books by a "church" that I can't remember the name of. Most of the things from back then I have strived to put from my mind. Seth talks of humans as being the beginning and end of their own creation. That we are bigger than ourselves here on Earth, that we are our own "gods". I'm paraphrasing, and like I said, I don't want to relive or remember much of that. Here's where I am today. I am a Christian, butyou won't find me in any fundamentalist or Baptist Church. I believe that God and His Son Jesus are the creators of Heaven and Earth. Christ is judge of all, and no-one else has that place. I don't know what lies beyond this life, but I know something does. I am content to accept the descriptions Jesus left us with as being the closest to what our human existance can understand. I believe everything and everyone is in Jesus's hands. I believe any Buuddist, Hindu, Jew, nativist, and anyone else can, and most likely does go to Heaven (whatever that is), and it is at Jesus's wish. He purchased our souls with his blood and his love. His forgiveness and love. I sense you are on a spiritual quest, and I applaud you. Just do me a favor; try to study the more
mainstream faiths rather than seth or scientology. This is my lithmus test: if something directly contradict Christianity, tries to put man above God, tries to negate Christ's place, those are warning signs. Check out Budhism, Native American spirituality, Judaism (Jesus was a Jew). Somewhere though, either first or during, also read the Gospel of John.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

70. Thank you for your information

My earliest memories are of being in church and with communing with God. My first holy book was the Gospel of John, and my favorite line in the Bible is "In the Beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". Seth, for me, was a primer; I have long moved on from the concepts presented there. I am fairly well acquainted with Lakota spirituality; my husband is a pipe carrier in the Lakota tradition, and I have done innumerable inipis (sweat lodge ceremonies) and have supported those on Vision Quest and at Sun Dance. As an ordained minister in the Universal Worship and a leader of the Dances of Universal Peace, I have studied Judaism and Buddhism, as well as Zoroastrianism, along with Christianity and Islam. I was led to be initiated in the universal Sufi path, one which teaches tolerance and forgiveness, and seeks to find similarities in the various paths that all lead to The One.

I believe it says in the Bible something like "What good can come out of Nazareth?", this said by a person who had not met Jesus and assumed anything coming from his town was no good. Seth is sort of like that-the concepts therein are what they are, and one can learn from them and go onward on their journey, as you and I both obviously have.

I wish you well.

Peace.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

24. If, in fact, there is a "heaven"

And if, in fact, there is free will in heaven, Can I go smack the shit out of all the televangelists?

[heidler1]

27. NO, but only because they won't be there.

Back in 1936 when I was eleven years old my mother gave me a dollar to recite this poem for her womens club. She was a Republican & and my Dad was a Democrat. Landon and Knox were going to take us off the rocks. LOL

A stranger stood at the gates of Hell.
The Devil himself had answered the bell.
The Devil asked, "What have you done in the line of sin
to entitle you to come with in.
Franklin D. with his usual guile
stepped forth and flashed his toothy smile.
When I took office in 33
A nations faith was mine said he.
I promised them this and I promised them that
I calmed them down with a fireside chat.
When the started to worry stew and fret
I got them to chanting the alphabet.
with the CCC, the NLB and the WPA.
I spent their money on fishing trips
I fished from the decks of battle ships
Franklin D. had talked both long and loud
The Devil stood his head was bowed.
He said, "Lets make it clear you can't stay here.
For once you mingle with this mob
I'd have to hunt my self a job."

[T_i_B]

29. I kinda feel that question is irrelevant in a way

but I certainly feel that we have free will here on earth.

[Az]

30. Irrelevant? No explanation as to why?

Just curious as to why you think this.

[T_i_B]

35. Well I don't think it helps us here on earth for one

but that's one of my gripes with theology in general, it can become pointless, utterly impractical and if anything can make us become more concerned with the theory of religion then the practice (i.e. being good towards others).

Besides that, I don't think it matters that much after we have been judged.

[Az]

38. With eternity on the line

I would think contemplating the issue would be quite relevant. What if the notion of good that god operates by is completely alien to the notion of good that we operate by. I mean he does like the smell of burning goats according to the bible. Do you want to spend eternity in the shadow of a being who's motivations and preferences are so totally alien that they may seem barbaric to you.

Contemplation of such things may clear up such matters or give reason to reject them or refine them. I can't help but think that this is a good thing.

[trotsky]

31. A conundrum that Christianity cannot address.

The whole point of suffering, the reason why there is pain, death, and destruction here on earth is supposedly because it's the price we pay for free will, the ultimate gift god gave us. Thus, having free will necessarily means those bad things will happen.

But then we have heaven, where there is no suffering. But if suffering is a necessary consequence of free will, then logically we cannot have free will in heaven. Our choices must be restricted.

So the Christian is left with only three ways out, all unsettling:

1) There is no free will in heaven and no suffering. We won't suffer in heaven, but we also won't get to do as we please.

2) There is free will in heaven, AND suffering. Suffering in heaven? Doesn't really sound like heaven.

2) There is free will in heaven, but no suffering, which totally contradicts their explanation for why there is suffering on earth and destroys the foundations of their myth.

[T_i_B]

34. Not all Christians belive in free will

most of us on DU do, but I really think that you need to look into Calvinist theology. Calvinism is prevalent on the religious right, and you will not see too much of it on here, but it is relevent to this question.

[trotsky]

36. Today's religious right has picked elements of Calvinism,

but I don't think you can say Calvinism as a whole is "prevalent" among them. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to accept Dubya as their president incarnate, since he made some pretty bad choices ("youthful indiscretions") prior to giving up the booze at age 40.

To say nothing about the bad choices he's made since then, of course.

[Dorian Gray]

33. Of course....

If you believe in the mythology of Satan, he had the Free Will to reject God.

[Old Mouse]

41. Only humans possess free will

according to the belief...

Satan's fall was arraigned to create the situation for us to be continuously tested, and therefore have a choice to exercise our free will upon... according to the belief. Lucifer was an angel, and angels got no souls. No soul, no free will.

[trotsky]

42. Lucifer = light bringer

A creature who supposedly knew God personally, and rejected him.

A bringer of light who rejected the god that created superstition and fear.

I always did have a hard time believing he was the bad guy.

[Old Mouse]

43. Quotes from books on the book

and not the book. Use your own epinoia. Of course Lucifer's not a bad guy, he's just doing his job as assigned. Even his temptation of Christ was by divine decree. Satan did not reject god, he tricked him into torturing Job... the ultimate Punkd' God got so embarrassed he hasn't spoken since, unless you believe those fatima girls.

Lucifer is the test of free will, but does not posses it. no angel does. And man only does as and when it pleases god. Pharaoh wanted to let them go, and Prophets didn't want to speak. If you follow the book, it's all rigged... God's will and all that. According to the mythos...

[heidler1]

47. Is there another layer of higher Gods who assigned this to Lucifer?

To me the biggest flaw in the whole belief of supreme beings is in the attempt to explain: Why are there men? or anything for that matter? So we create a larger dilemma of: Why are there Gods? On and on in infinitum.

[Old Mouse]

48. one of the joys of pre-canon papal discourse

is the admission that the concept of infinity cannot be truly imagined by a finite mind. Due to our physical limitations we cannot understand the motivations of something whose existence is impossible for us to empathize or conceptualize. That's why so many contradictions and hard turns of phrase were purposefully placed in scripture: as a constant reminder not to attempt to familiarize or anthropomorphize the unknowable. To do so is at best ultimate conceit, and at worst ultimate deceit.

The whole modern Gnostic pantheon of gods above Jehovah is just another attempt to make a personal god from a religion that originally condemned the very idea of organized scripture!

[Az]

49. Of course from the skeptics position

Such a limit pretty much seems to amount to the clergy telling the followers to stop thinking about it.

As to the common people, ... one has to be hard with them and see that they do their work and that under the threat of the sword and the law they comply with the observance of piety, just as you chain up wild beasts. - Martin Luther

To be a Christian, you must pluck out the eye of reason. - Martin Luther

[heidler1]

50. I agree. I can't see where telling someone that they are too dumb to

understand is going to get many converts. Of course if you couple it with a threat of being burnt at the stake it might work with a few. I suppose that is why burning at the stake was pretty common.

[Old Mouse]

54. Give this man a cigar!

They didn't want converts! Get it? Get it? No? It was the beginning of the notion of self outside of tribe, the origin of identity separated from caste! Mercy for the sake of love, and life beyond mere survival!

They were doing everything within their power to keep this new philosophical awakening from becoming a massive bid to control thought rather than free it. No one was allowed to join without proving merit.

And they weren't burning anyone at the stake, that came a thousand years later.

[Old Mouse]

52. that's post cannon

The pre-cannon argument between the Gnostic and Orthodox was precisely that. The Gnostics thought Christianity should be an intellectual elite exploring the nature of existance...(you must understand mankind was only just exploring the notion of the self at this time... something we take for granted today with disastrous results,) and the Orthodox wanted a simplified all-inclusive theology that was easily absorbed by the masses. Kind of today's blue versus red.

I won't give away who won, but the losers were chopped up into little tiny pieces, then burned, then chopped up some more, and God became human. (if you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him)

Christianity has some amazing philosophy and history behind it.. it is also faceted and shattered, with a multitude of versions and interpretations spread over the millennia. It allows people find faith at a level they can accept. Would you judge all Buddhist based on the Aum cult?

[Az]

53. Yes... Yes I would

But thats just because I am being silly at the moment. ;)

[Old Mouse]

55. Well, I'll join you in that! n/t

[heidler1]

46. The way I get it Satan is a God with powers similar to Jehovah.

So much for claiming a monotheistic religion.

[Old Mouse]

51. No, that's only in American comic books and movies.

Lucier was an angel who only carries out God's will. For example, Lucifer had to test Christ in the desert, even if he didn't want to. Lucifer has to prepare the anti-Christs for their time on earth. His every move is God's will... If you go by the mythos.

[heidler1]

57. From Wickapedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan#In_the_New_Testament
Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Satan is a real person. Satan was created a perfect spirit creature, but that he became "Satan the Devil" when he acted on his desire to turn Adam and Eve away from worship of Jehovah to himself. The name he carried previously is not mentioned in the Bible.

By use of the serpent in the Garden of Eden Satan seduced Eve by implying that God's rulership was selfish and unjust. "Is it really so that God said YOU must not eat from every tree of the garden?" Eve's reply was that only one tree had been prohibited from their use on penalty of death. Satan challenged this: "YOU positively will not die. For God knows that in the very day of YOUR eating from it YOUR eyes are bound to be opened and YOU are bound to be like God, Knowing good and bad." So, Satan's approach was a dual deception: First, that God was withholding good from them and second that he was lying in the process.

Eve, having succumbed to this deception, along with Adam, who allowed himself to become complicit in the matter, rejected their Creator and chose Satan as their 'god'. The Bible shows that the majority of their offspring followed them in this course. (e.g. The Flood)

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Satan is still the god of this world, citing references at 2 Cor.4:4; 1 John 5:19; Mt 4:8-11.

[Old Mouse]

58. With all due respect to the Wittnesses...

...they are a cult far from the mainstream of Christianity. Members are not allowed to read the bible on their own lest they have personal epiphanies not in accordance with the accepted doctrine. Their version of Satan is an exttremely unique interpretation. They also claimed the world would end in 1966. and 1972, etc etc.

The angel Lucifer, right hand of god, fell from heaven. Christ points it out in Luke 10:18.

[Az]

59. Cults always seem to be someone elses religion

Never one's own.

[Old Mouse]

60. I think of it as a developmental stage issue

Larval to pupae... not all reach the numbers or sophistication to survive millennia.

[heidler1]

62. ! think of it as a fairy tale that has been stamped true by it's believers

The complexity of the myth is used by its followers as a complex chant to be repeated as a smoke screen if the myth is attacked as being destructive for humanity or logically flawed. I also think of it as a habit forming emotional fix for those who want some form of life to continue after they die. I think that human life ends in permanent death for all practical purposes like all other animals.

[Old Mouse]

64. and you are welcome to your beliefs

it should be noted that most original polytheists knew their religions were allegorical, and used them to bring ritual and quality of life, enriching the experience of human consciousness in the process. Turns out "manners make us men" is true.

You should research a little more: Buddhism and Hinduism are about how to *avoid* eternal life.

[onager]

61. So let me get this straight...

Heaven is the ultimate reward for the believer. Supposedly the Big Payoff after years of major good works like feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, and annoying strangers on internet boards with your bonehead quasi-proselytizing.

But based on the posts I've just read, you people can't even agree on the basics of that reward?

:rofl:

Sweet Jebus, that grumpy old atheist Robert Ingersoll was absolutely right: "Never invest in any enterprise which only pays dividends after death."

[heidler1]

63. The way I get it you sit around all day worshiping this God for letting

you in. If you have free will this could get pretty old after a while. If you exercise free will and quit worshiping, then what? With no free will this God could get pretty tired of all of these robot like souls chanting, God is good, all of the time. If you fed them regularly dogs might buy it, but humans? If you do away with the need for food then not even dogs would play such a silly game.

[Az]

65. The original version of the movie Bedazzled

Has a conversation between Dudley Moores character and Satan. Dudley is asking why he rebelled. Satan told Dudley to pretend he was god and that Dudley was in heaven. He then hopped up on top of a mail box and told him to praise him. Dudley said he was great. Satan said "more". Dudley said he was really great. Satan said keep it coming. Dudley says you are so amazingly great. Then stopped and asked, is this all there is to it. Satan said "Yep, for all eternity."

[heidler1]

66. You would think that someone, well versed in the dogma of Christianity,

would have taken it upon him/her self to paint a more complete picture of how neat it will be in Heaven. The problem seems to be that even when God or man created the Garden of Edin God or man included the forbidden fruit in spite of the inconsistent creation of Adam and Eve. They were designed to be vulnerable to the tempting Satan either by God or the man who invented the myth. If in truth this God or man knew the outcome of the temptation it lacks fairness. How can Adam and Eve fairly be held responsible. Isn't it like designing an airplane that would not fly and blaming the airplane for its failure. If this Gods values are so out of whack with human logic Heaven will be like living under Bush here and now.

[Az]

67. The story of Adam and Eve is even more troubled

Consider the story. God told Adam to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. As such we can infer that prior to eating of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil they did not understand the concept of good and evil. Thus when the serpant appeared before Eve and told her to eat the fruit she had no means of deciding whether it was good or evil to comply. They were effectively automatons with no ability to discern right from wrong. They could only take the last thing they heard as the right thing to do and comply. Thus Eve eats of the fruit.

It is comparable to a mother leaving a baby in a room with an open bottle of poison and telling it not to drink it. When the police are arresting her for the death of her baby her protests of innocence because she told the baby not to drink fall on deaf ears because there was no way the baby could comply with the command. Its not that the baby sinned. It is simply just that the baby could not understand.

[catbert836]

68. The way I think of heaven

is rather like the Buddhist nirvana, a state of eternal bliss. So I guess the answer would be I don't know.

[heidler1]

69. The way I see Heaven would be where people practiced the Beatitudes

But the way people are whether created or not, this will never happen. Besides the Beatitudes deal with problems of the flesh like eating and forgiving which has nothing in common with souls in heaven.