Question for people who know the Bible more than I do

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

Are instances of collective/tribal guilt (entire cities punished for sin, children being killed to punish the parents etc...) to be found only in the Old Testament or in the New also?

[greekspeak]

1. Sodom, Gomorah in the OT. I think that you will find implicitly Jerusalem

pays in the NT, for their rejection of Jesus as the Christ. It is all in how you read it, though. And there are as many ways of reading it as there are people who do read it.

[idiosyncratic]

2. Only in the Old Testament. eom

[SteppingRazor]

3. Off the top of my head...

I can only think of Old Testament examples of that.

And the amount of examples of Jesus saying that vengeance is wrong are overwhelming:

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. "

And so on...

[Ladyhawk]

4. Yes, there are references in the New Testament

Mat 10:14

And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Mat 10:15

Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.


The bible is an ugly book. I spent most of my life studying it and wish I didn't know so much about it.

[opihimoimoi]

6. The bible is a tool used to fool / subjugate peeps. Merlin Stone wrote

WHEN GOD WAS A WOMAN reveals how the Levites fooled the Hebrews and it went all down hill after that.

[Az]

5. Lots of violence directed at fig trees and vendor tables

But mostly threats of destruction and damnation if people don't listen to Jesus in the NT. It is worth noting that Jesus claims to stand by all the rules in the OT despite loopholing his way out of stoning everyone to death.

[HamdenRice]

7. Big exception in the New Testament ...

There are not such collective punishment stories as history in the NT, but when its prediction of the future, Revelation, is one mean-ass collective punishment story!

That's why the only part of the NT that RW fundies love is Revelation.

[HamdenRice]

8. Big exception in the NT

There are not such collective punishment stories as history in the NT, but when its prediction of the future, Revelation, is one mean-ass collective punishment story!

That's why the only part of the NT that RW fundies love is Revelation.

[onager]

9. From the always-useful Skeptics Annotated Bible...

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

Luke Chapter 10, Jesus threatens a lot of random towns and cities with Divine Whacking:

Luke 10:13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.

10:14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.

10:15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.

These are most likely "retro-prophecies." Many of those are in the Old and New Testament--stuff obviously written years after the events, then back-fitted to appear like Amazing Predictions. (See also the Book Of Daniel.)

Some of the places mentioned were probably besieged--and/or flattened--by the Roman invasion of Judea in 66 CE. Vespasian and his son Titus met and combined their Legions at the coastal city of Ptolemais. Then they methodically moved inland, tightening the noose around Jerusalem by conquering the major cities of Galilee, Samaria, the Dead Sea region, and finally Judea.

Grumpy Atheist History Geek notes that Jebus was way late in uttering threats against the island fortress-city of Tyre. Alexander The Great had sacked the place 300 years before.

Luke 21: better not have any rug-rats around, especially young ones! Again, all this portentous croaking sounds like a story about the Roman attack on Jerusalem, retro-fitted much later and put in Jesus' mouth as a "prophecy:"

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.