Four Noble Truths? Not deep enough? (Buddhist philosophy)

[Meldread]

I was contemplating on the Four Noble Truths. Roughly speaking the Four Noble Truths are:

1. There is Suffering.
2. There is a cause of suffering (attachment).
3. There is a way to end suffering.
4. The way out of suffering is the Eight Fold Path.

I do not think I can agree with this, and here is why: Suffering is an effect, not a cause. Suffering originates because of a problem, but suffering in and of itself is not THE problem.

For example one might say homelessness causes suffering. Yes, this is true but homelessness is not the cause of the suffering. One has to ask what caused the homelessness in order to understand the root of the problem, which in turn would eliminate the suffering.

So one might say this: Homelessness causes suffering, Homelessness increased dramatically because of a massive number of people lost their jobs, the increased number of job loss was caused by an economic downturn, which was in turn caused by rising oil and gas prices, which was in turn caused by a decrease in supply and an increase in demand. With this example you have identified the true cause of suffering, and by eliminating that you would in turn reverse the effects of suffering.

Therefore, shouldn't the Four Noble Truths look something like this:
1. Identify the problem
2. Identify the cause
3. Decide if the problem can be solved
4. Solve the problem

By only looking at suffering you only deal with the effect not the cause, and while you may ultimately eliminate suffering from yourself by complete detachment, suffering as a whole still persists.

Am I correct in my understanding?

[Az]

1. Perhaps you are ready to consider Taoism

:evilgrin:

[Autonomy]

2. No, you're embracing the material attachments

that are the cause of suffering. While your approach is karmaically admirable, you're missing the point that attachments to the world are the problem.

Anyway, I'm not a Buddhism scholar or practitioner, and only buy into it on a limited level.

[The Traveler]

3. Not quite, and yet

Some of the most miserable people I have known have been rich, without want or worry. Why, then, do they suffer? Because that have not learned that which brings contentment and release from bondage. (Neither have I, for that matter.)

That being said, there is suffering and then there is suffering and much that suffering DOES have external cause that can be remedied. For example, we cannot spare anyone the experience of eventual death. Dealing with that is a spiritual chore for the individual. But we must not, if we are to claim decency, stand by while any of our people languish in poverty, disease, malnourishment and hopelessness.

[Meldread]

5. There will always be suffering.

I agree with the premise that there *IS* suffering, and would go as far as to say there will *always* be suffering. However, what I think is key to note is that suffering is but an effect of a problem.

It is true that if you detach yourself from the world and worldly things that you will no longer suffer emotionally. However, you still suffer. You can still go hungry. You can still watch those around you starve. You can still watch the world die around you, yet be detached from it.

That is what I do not understand. One question that perhaps should be raised is that: Given the choice or the ability should *all* suffering be eliminated from the world? If all suffering were removed from the world, would that in and of itself not cause suffering? One could argue that it is through suffering that we grow emotionally, spiritually, and intellectually. Without suffering we would not grow, and therefore we would suffer - we would stagnate.

Also, for as long as there is suffering in the world - there will be those who suffer - and for as long as there are creatures who live there will be suffering. Is it not like a cat chasing its tail to try and remove all suffering from the world, would it not be a more wise and pragmatic approach to look at things one problem at a time while acknowledging the following:

1. There is suffering.
2. There is a cause to suffering.
3. The problem is the cause of suffering.
4. Solve the problem, eliminate the suffering.

[The Traveler]

11. You misunderstand

You wrote:

"I agree with the premise that there *IS* suffering, and would go as far as to say there will *always* be suffering. However, what I think is key to note is that suffering is but an effect of a problem.

It is true that if you detach yourself from the world and worldly things that you will no longer suffer emotionally."

Oddly, Aleister Crowley of all people perhaps did the best job of explaining what the best approach to the subject of "detachment" probably is. Take action, but without "lust for result". Do for the joy of doing, but do not be bound to any particular result of the action.

While your approach is logical, there is a problem with it. People are not driven by logic. Driven by compulsions, by their own inner suffering, by their fears they cannot surrender completely to the logical necessity you aptly describe.

On the other hand, those who achieve liberation from the bondage of self will can see your approach as a moral and logical imperative.

That, at least, is the theory. Do not suspect that I think I have achieved that release.

[Meldread]

13. Nor have I, and I understand.

It just doesn't seem right, feel right, or click in my head. In order to end suffering you have to cease all want, all need, all attachment. In order to do this you must no longer allow yourself to feel good emotions. If you feel good emotions - then you open yourself up to suffering. Yet, couldn't it be argued that if you never feel any good emotions that you are suffering without the ability to feel it?

Yes, it is logical in a world filled with impulse and emotion. Yet isn't that the purpose - to devoid yourself of emotion and impulse? All that would be left is logic and reason. Then you'd stand right where we are now. There still would be suffering.

[The Traveler]

14. That's where we get to the tricky part

Buddhists would tell you that you get to feel good emotions AND bad emotions. But a feeling is just a feeling, a thought is just a thought The trick is not to become captured by any one feeling or thought, to become mired there, but to experience it, release it, and go on to the next experience. Thus good Buddhists can be sages, or warriors, or fishermen, or firefighters, or charity workers, or political activists or ...

I am not explaining my own beliefs, but my understanding of Buddhist principles. In a sense, I think you are misrepresenting those principles. Other than that, I am in large agreement with what you have written.

[Meldread]

15. Ahhh...

That makes sense. So the goal is not complete detachment, but rather abstract detachment. I see. That would be walking the proverbial swords edge.

[The Traveler]

16. "Tough are the soles

that tread the knife's edge."

When does "liberation from bondage" begin and "emotional numbness or complacency" end? I have never found a good test for that ... but there are, I think, hints in (oddly) Bruce Lee's introduction to his martial arts monograph "The Art of Jheet Koon Do".

[Meldread]

19. You have been really helpful.

I posted how I now view things in Post #17.

I feel like I grew a little bit smarter from this discussion. Thanks.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

4. Am I correct in my understanding?

In a word, no. But keep working on it, when you completely exhaust the intellect, it might then make sense.

[Meldread]

6. See my post #5.

Help me see where I am wrong. I want to understand.

[oblivious]

7. You do agree with this.

The four truths are not saying suffering is a cause. Like you, they are saying suffering is an effect (1) and we know what the cause is (2). There is a solution (3). That solution is the 8-fold path (4).

You seem to agree on the structure. You may not agree with the cause and solution though.

[Meldread]

10. Yes, that's what I'm saying.

I am interpreting the Four Noble Truths as saying that suffering is (in and of itself) suffering. That is to say I am understanding it to say, suffering is both the cause and the effect - which does not seem logical.

[porkrind]

8. I've heard it stated like this

And I think it makes more sense like this:

1. All in life is suffering.
2. Desire is the cause of suffering.
3. To end suffering, one must remove desire.
4. Desire is removed by following the Eightfold Noble Path.

This shows suffering as an effect.

[Up2Late]

9. No, not even close, go back and re-read what ever you just read...

... or better yet, Read "The Four Noble Truths" by H.H. The Dalai Lama.

Even Better, Read the 3 books in the Library of Tibet series called:

1) "The Way to Freedom"

2) "Awakening the Mind, Lightening the Heart"

3) "The Joy of Living and Dying in Peace"

In that order. Don't expect to understand, eventually you will. Some people, it takes 2-3 years, others, it takes a lifetime.

The only thing it takes to understand Buddhism is, an open mind without preconceptions, a complete loss of faith in what you were previously taught about God, and a desire to eventually know the Truth.

[Meldread]

12. I have a desire to understand.

I seem to have reached a mental block, though. Which is why I do not understand, most likely that stems from the fact that I am unwilling to simply accept. I want to understand - I want to know and my mind runs into a road block.

It is aggregating. I feel like there is something I am missing, something obvious and right in front of my face, and once I understand that everything will fall into place. Yet for the life of me I cannot figure out what it is.

Certainly, I could just accept it as truth and move on. It would be easier that way, wouldn't it? However, it just seems that it is missing the much larger picture - that it doesn't cut deep enough. It just feels empty and hollow - missing something.

[Up2Late]

18. To me, it sounds like you need to do a few things first.

1) Go get some sleep.

2) Go buy some nice incense

3) Get a book or Tape or DVD on Meditation (not focused meditation, the meditation that quiets the mind).

4) Practice Meditation

(Note: they call it practice, because it is difficult to do for long periods of time at first, it will get easier, just like athletics get easier as you practice a skill)

5) Give up your expectations of what the answer will be, eventually you will know.

To me, it sounds like your mind is too active to understand, that's why I recommend the Meditation, which is a way to slow down and clear the mind.

The Four Nobel Truths are the Beginning of the path, and they are also the end. You never fully understand them until you have traveled that path, and nobody here can travel that path for you, it is a path you must walk yourself.

A Guru, or Lama or Teacher can show you the path, but they can't walk it for you.

Another thing to remember is, the word suffering is not the perfect word for describing this concept, but it is the closest word we have in English. The English meaning of the word Suffering is the first preconception that you should eliminate from you thinking. I would give you other words, but that would probably add to the confusion.

Sleep, Eat, Meditate, Rest. Everything else will take care of it's self.

[Meldread]

20. Check my post, #17.

I've altered my view after some discussion. Tell me if you think I am on the right track.

[Meldread]

17. I think I understand:

1. There is, was and always will be suffering.
2. The origin of suffering is attachment.
3. Suffering can end.
4. You can end suffering by abstract detachment.

From this point, you are no longer clouded by emotion or impulse, but rather logic and reason. From here you can identify the causes of suffering and then identify what you can, personally, do about them.

I thought of it only as complete detachment - devoiding yourself of all emotion. I saw that as being simply another road to suffering - the ability to suffer without feeling it.

In order to understand this, one must acknowledge that there is, was, and always will be suffering - that they will still feel suffering. The goal was never to stop feeling, but rather to create a state of mind where you can see things clearly and logically - without the fog of emotion or impulse.

The goal is not to actually as literally stated, to end suffering, as ending all suffering (of yourself and those around you) is neither desirable nor possible.

Do I understand now?

[Up2Late]

21. Close, you had it up until #4

#4 is not quite that simple, but you ARE much closer to understanding than you were before.

Now you must learn the 8 fold path, which is a very complicated and impossible to "sum up." This is where you must begin you journey.

Sorry to sound like some mysterious Guru, but full understanding took me three years, and then it all just snapped into place. For some, it takes much longer.

Read the books I recommended, then read a few more.

One of the meanings of "suffering" is ignorance, until you defeat ignorance, none of this will truly make sense.

The Four Noble Truths comes in a small, pocket size paperback, or it is part 2 of the book "The Heart of the Buddha's Path" by H.H. The Dalai Lama.

[Meldread]

22. I am not ready for that.

I still have a few loose ends that I need to tie up with the Four Noble Truths. I want to understand them completely and totally. Not just in passing.

I think it is somewhat like building something. You always start out with a foundation. In order to understand the philosophy of Buddhism you have to understand the Four Noble Truths - the foundation.

[Up2Late]

26. You will never achieve that unless you move on and gain other wisdom...

...and experience. The path to understanding is too long and complicated to stop and try to "figure this one out," you don't yet have the skills to figure it out, and shouldn't try. It is far more important set this one aside, learn other things, then eventually come back to it. This is how most who now do understand The Four Noble Truths (TFNT)achieved this.

Your "need" to understand (TFNT) is exactly the type of suffering that you must recognize as suffering, and then let go of, to move on and eventually achieve understanding.

TFNT, and most of the Buddha's teachings are like a large Feast with dozens of dishes to cook, and the Guru or Lama is the Master Chef. If you as the Apprentice Chef say, now that a have scrambled these eggs and mixed up this cake batter, I now want to finish this cake before I move on to cooking the rest of the meal. But the meal can not be finished until you move on to other items in the meal preparation. Keep the Cake in the back of you mind, while giving it time to cook and then to cool, you will achieve other things while it cooks, then you can return to the cake to frost and finish it for a wonderful desert.

But if you say, No, I want to finish making this cake and will not move on until I have finnish frosting this cake, the cake is worthless, because the rest of the meal will not be finished and served in the proper order, so the guests will get so frustrated with waiting for the meal, they will leave and never eat the cake.

Buddhism is not linear thinking, it requires a flexible and supple mind. Buddhist teachings are like the the water of fast flowing river, you, the student, are like a boat,and suffering (this desire to fully understand this concept now) is like a fallen tree that blocks most of the river. You could stop and say NO, I want to clear this obstacle now without the tools to do it, or you can figure out a way to get around the fallen tree for now. You can continue the journey, or you can remain stuck and most likely never complete your journey.

This is why moving on at this point is important, you will eventually come back to clear that tree, or when you return, the tree may already be gone, having been cleared by someone else. I hope you follow what I am telling you here, and please pay no attention to post 23,24, and 25, they are fools who will not understand any of this.

[charlie]

27. This fool stands by what he said

Buddhism, one way or another, eventually forces a quandary where your entire toolset is useless. Intellect, emotion, intuition, God, your self, won't deliver you. Fully faced, that crackup is when realizing the Buddha can occur.

[Up2Late]

28. You are an idiot, go back to you Christian chat and quit disrupting in

a subject area you know nothing about. Everything you have written here is wrong.

And seeing how the first step in Buddhism is a Non-belief in "God," why the hell would I worry if Buddhism made "God" useless?:eyes:

Hey, I bet their are a bunch of Atheists or Jews you could be harassing right now, better get to spreading your "faith."

[charlie]

29. Yikes

Not even remotely a Christian, I'm an atheist. And God remains a fundamental concept for plenty, whether Jehovah, the One, the All That Is, it's an all too common part of human experience, including that of many Buddhists. No, I'm not harassing anybody, just offering what I know. If you want to indulge your "faith" in twee dramas of paths, journeys, and rivers go right ahead, I'm just noting to Meldread that sooner or later if he pursues Buddhism wholeheartedly, he's going to face the moment when the bottom falls out of his bucket. And that's the whole point.

[omega minimo]

31. OooooOOOooooh-- you're a twee worshipper

:hug:

[charlie]

24. No, it's a trick

Release from desire is yet another desire. Much of Buddhism is like that, double-binds to lead you into intractable stalemates, where reasoning, instinct, emotion, or "spiritual detachment" won't save you. Demonstrating the futility of such efforts forces you to face the root of the question -- who is being fooled, who suffers, who spawns desires?

[2nd_class_citizen]

32. Exactly

If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.

The desire to end suffering can itself be an attachment that prevents enlightenment.

[Old Mouse]

23. I hate to break it to you

but one of Buddhism dirty secrets is that enlightenment cannot be achieved in one lifetime. Compassion and Mercy have little to do with actual enlightenment besides shedding lifetimes of bad karma to move one into position to achieve enlightenment. It is NOT possible to achieve while experiencing suffering, so you need to first deserve a life free of suffering to truly begin the eight fold path. Gotta find that still spot.

Suffering always exists HERE but HERE isn't real.

[ladjf]

25. It's clear that you understand the sequential nature of existence.

All things are events, each triggered by other preceding events. Your idea to examine the problem (an undesired event) with the intention of altering future outcomes (overcoming the "problem") is logical. Ultimately, that's all that can be done. Any other approach is nonsense.

[Meldread]

30. New Understanding:

I've reflected, contemplated and investigated the Four Noble Truths even further. Here is my current understanding:

It is not enough to simply acknowledge the Four Noble Truths - you must understand them. To understand them you must first acknowledge that there is suffering. To live is to suffer. This is a statement, a fact, something solid and tangible.

On the surface such a statement may seem simple, yet it is easy to ignore all the intricate complexities. To understand the first of the Noble Truths you must simply acknowledge that there is suffering. That there is unhappiness, strife and malcontent. There is suffering. To live is to suffer.

However, it is not good enough to simply acknowledge that there is suffering, you must try and understand suffering. What causes suffering? Why do we suffer? To truly understand suffering you must not personalize it. It is easy for someone to read the first of the Noble Truths and say, "Yes, there is suffering, I suffer." Yes, you suffer. I suffer. We all suffer. Life is suffering, but why? Why do we suffer?

We suffer because of attachment and desire. "I love my home." One person might say. Their home burns to the ground and that person will suffer. To understand suffering you must first acknowledge that you suffer, "I suffer because I lost my home." Then, you must let go of that attachment. "I lost my home because it burned down, now I must go find some type of new shelter." Acceptance of suffering is key to understanding suffering.

Does this mean that one should release their attachment and desire to all worldly things? No. The only possible way to do that is through death, and yet to achieve this - you would have to desire death. To desire death would mean that you did not get the original concept in the first place. *THERE IS SUFFERING, LIFE IS SUFFERING.* To understand suffering you must acknowledge this, you must accept it.

Desire and attachment are tricky to understand. Desire in and of itself is not bad. The key is to separate wants from needs. "I want a new car." "I want to be rich." "I want to be famous." "I want to be respected." Those are wants. "I want a home." Is not a want, it is a need. "I need a home to protect myself from the elements." "I need food and water to stay alive."

It is easy to take those needs and then make them wants. "I want a big home to protect myself from the elements." "I want pizza and soda because I need to eat and drink to stay alive." You do not *NEED* a big home nor do you *NEED* pizza and soda. A home is a shelter, something to protect you from the elements, a home can be a shack. Food and water is what is available, not what tastes good or what you would prefer.

It is easy to identify what one needs and what one wants, but it is harder to understand attachment. Attachment can be attachment to anything not just things tangible. A title, for example can lead to attachment. You can also become attached to ideas, not only about yourself but the world around you. In addition to those you could also become attached to physical things, such as a home or car - a favorite couch or some type of personal collection. You can also become attached to people.

Attachment will always lead to suffering. If someone you love dies, you will be sad - you will suffer. Life is suffering. You must acknowledge this suffering, understand why you suffer, and then let it go. Say, "I suffer because someone I loved died." Then let go. This is perhaps the most difficult thing to do. "But I loved this person", you might say. Yes, you did. However, that person is now dead - death is apart of life. They are gone now, and you must let go.

At the heart of this, you must be willing to acknowledge and then let go. By acknowledging and letting go you will understand.

Once you understand, you realize that there is a way to free yourself from suffering. This way leads to the Eight Fold Path which teaches: Right Understanding, Right Aspiration, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration. The purpose of the Eight Fold Path is to help you become not only mentally but emotionally mature.

Once you understand that there is suffering, that life is suffering, once you understand how to let go of that suffering, you can then begin to understand and walk the Eightfold Path. Walking the Eightfold Path will lead to mental and emotional maturity, to enlightenment.

Do I now understand the Four Noble Truths?

[insane_cratic_gal]

33. My own understanding.

To release or detach from suffering is to be free of the bounds of suffering to achieve true happiness. This is how I understand the 4 noble truths as of right now. I have just started to study Buddhism, so my interpretations are not as broad as many here.

From what I gather, suffering is to be treated like a long addiction to alcohol. That is, if you fill your life with old patterns without being mindful of how these actions impact you, you'll continue to suffer and repeat old habits.
You are never detached from the world and those around you, as it's often spoken that you must understand the connection to everything. From soul to soul and energy to energy, understanding the connection of all things, allows for the expansion of empathy and compassion to help others be relieved of their suffering. Empathy and compassion are the opposite of detachment, or void of emotion.

I do not believe there is a state of detachment nor indifference, those would only serve to continue ones suffering. I believe, in the context of the teachings detach, is intent is to release one self from desire and want. To be happy one must remove the notions (or detached) of fear and anguish, hate. Remove the notion of self, person, living being and life span(also things you detach from). Encompass the ideas of cycle, circle, truth both inner and universal.

I do understand how you felt, I felt the same after first reading the 4 noble truths. Perhaps it was different for me, I have a child, it struck me odd that I must disconnect my attachment from her? I'm a mother how do you do that? It is not possible for me to detach from my child, from humanity. To be cold or removed from emotion. But my understanding of what was intended was wrong. It may still be wrong =)

After reading more, I have a calm acceptance now. Of course my biggest fear as a mother, is loosing my child, the physical loss of a loved one and all of the devastation that follows.
For now, while I am still learning, for me the acceptance that all things suffer, die and are reborn (unless Nirvana is reached) we can mourn their passing or suffer from that piece of us that is missing. Yet it is still there. Present in something else, for the connection of all living things does not end with a breath or lack of one. Love is an action it just does not go away from the lack of a physical person. Long after they leave it is still there, when dreaming or walking you only need reflect upon it one you love to know it is still present. It is part of you always. We can love those around us and cherish them while they are among us, rejoice for it each day. Live in the present and not the fear of the future.

But I still miles to go in understanding all that Buddhism has to offer, so this may all change as my understanding progresses. Sorry for the long winded post. I was just excited to see that other people were discussing this!

[Disturbed]

34. I have studied Zen for years but

I have never meditated. I am lazy. Being a Zenster takes discipline and work. I like the ideas yet I won't do the work that is required. Logic is fine for the beginning of this process but one must follow a regime to further one's process. Maybe in my next life I'll be ready for the work. ;0)

[insane_cratic_gal]

36. To read my own post

caused me to suffer! :blush:

I should be forbidden to write first thing in the morning, I'm just not thinking clearly and it shows horribly!

But thank you for being kind and responding to all of the gibberish anyway. :pals:

[CarbonDate]

35. Your desire to understand is causing you suffering.

Give up your desire to understand and pop back a cold one. :beer:

I have found that only heathens can truly be happy. Or maybe it's just that I wasn't happy until I became a heathen. That's probably it.

[anarch]

37. Buddhism is never going to solve all your problems for you.

That is, everyone always has problems, and lots of them. 83 of them at a time, so I've heard.

Right Understanding can help you with the 84th problem: worrying about all your problems.

Might I also point out that there will always be suffering of some kind, nothing lasts forever, and you do not exist.

http://buddhism.about.com/library/weekly/aa070202a.htm

"Not-Self

The idea of not self or anatta is probably the most challenging concept of all and it is quite unique to Buddhism. Other religions have the idea of a soul but Buddhism doesn't. Instead, it sees the individual as a combination of five factors known as khandhas. Each person, therefore, is made up of consciousness, feelings, mental formations (including volition), perception and corporeality (the body). None of these, according to Buddhism, is permanent and nor, either individually or collectively, do they constitute what might be called a soul. Through meditation - particularly insight or vipassana meditation - these three marks play an important role. The idea of insight meditation is to see things as they really are and this means realizing at an experiential rather than conceptual level that suffering, impermanence and not-self underlie everything. Paradoxically, to realize this is to bring an end to suffering. Not surprisingly then, the three marks of are fundamental to Buddhist thinking and practice. "

IMHO, you shouldn't let this stop you from trying to deal with your various problems...

Here's a nice Zen story for you:

One day the Master announced that a young monk had reached an advanced state of enlightment. The news caused some stir. Some of the monks went to see the young monk. "We heard you are enlightened. Is that true?" they asked.

"It is," he replied.

"And how do you feel?"

"As miserable as ever," said the monk.

[Dogmudgeon]

38. Suffering is the Illusion. Pain is the Reality.

It's one of those koan-like epigrams, but I think it cuts to the heart of Buddhist practice.

I had a shrink once, Murray Needleman, who was one of those proto-New-Agers from the 1960s who studied Buddhism extensively (as well as the Judaism he was born into and the Christianity he lived with), and trained as a Gestalt therapist. He had a saying, "Suffering is Optional".

It's worth saying twice:

Suffering is Optional.

Now, a lot of what Murray did was incomprehensible to me at the time, and likely still would be today, but that epigram always stuck in my mind, and has made a tremendous difference in my life. Because of it, I did not remain a 100% idiot, and graduated to the 99% idiot category (though that might even be bragging too much). Pain might be an inescapable part of life, but Suffering -- you might call it the spiritual aspect of pain -- is entirely up to the sufferer.

When Thich Quang Duc emptied a can of gasoline on himself and lit that match, I have no doubt that he experienced the horrifying pain of death by burning alive. By his own volition -- to protest the obscenity and cruelty of the Diem regime toward its own people.

But in spite of the pain, he didn't suffer. He even managed a smile, according to some observers. And this kind of thing has been observed in all religions, and even among non-religious ecstatics.

A neurologist might say that Thich Quang Duc had incredible powers of "cortical inhibition" -- and would be right. But the spiritual message that suffering and pain are not the same phenomenon shared by two words is also the correct "answer".

After the first time I considered Murray's epigram, Thich's act -- and lack of agony -- made sense to me. It was rather extreme, and it's not something I would do, but it affected millions of people and eventually led to a modern Vietnam that was able to heal from the brutal war America inflicted on it.

"Suffering is Optional" -- and thanks again, Murray, wherever you may be today.

--p!