I, for one, am glad there are no more "magic" or "miracles"

[Taverner]

Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING has a natural explanation. Some people argue that this robs us of the mystical nature of things - but I ask who needs that?

As Carl Sagan said, "I would rather know than believe."

Yes - me too

[Enrique]

1. explain human consciousness

did i blow your mind? :wow: ;-)

[Taverner]

2. Explain it? Sure

You have a conscious brain and a subconscious one. The Subconscious does all the work (the equivalent of a million database queries per second) while the conscious brain takes credit.

When you get a "hunch" that is merely the result of the subconscious mind's work, cross analyzing stimuli and data to produce the pattern in the form of a hunch.

I do not see anything magical or mystical about the human brain - it follows the laws of both Newtonian and Quantum Physics, and one might even designate the brain as a 'Wet-ware Quantum Computer.'

When we finally develop the Quantum Computer, it will resemble the brain more than it will Binary Computers.

[cleanhippie]

24. Sure, that's easy.

Just read this. http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0805091254/ref=mp_s_a_1?qid=1311969832&sr=8-1

A basic understanding of he neurochemistry of the brain will explain it.





Did I just blow YOUR mind?

[PassingFair]

54. Its kind of complicated...

[enki23]

81. never a miscommunication

.

[RZM]

3. What about 'Magic' the Gathering? And 'Miracle' Whip?

Makes ya think . . .

[Taverner]

5. LOL...and Magic Fingers! How the %$#@! do they work???

[trotsky]

8. Miracle Whip.

God's gift to sandwiches.

[Taverner]

10. I thought that was Marshmallow Fluff?

[trotsky]

12. Only for peanut butter & banana sandwiches. n/t

[Big Blue Marble]

4. How do you "know' this/

Many great mind would disagree with your premise that it is possible to know everything.
Our minds are just not that large or powerful.

[Taverner]

6. Never said I know everything

But I am convinced that there are no magical powers or miracles

ON EDIT: What I did say is that every phenomena has a naturalistic explanation

[Big Blue Marble]

7. If you are convinced,

then you are saying that is your opinion, based on an emotional decision not a rational one.
And as you know, more decisions are based on our emotions and unconscious drivers.

Other hold different opinions. And many have actually experienced both magical powers and miracles
in their opinion. So why should yours hold sway over theirs?

And as to your edit. That is an assumption on your part which again is stating a opinion not a fact.
Unless of course, you have proof.

[Taverner]

9. No, that is not the definition of convinced

Convince means "To bring by the use of argument or evidence to firm belief or a course of action"

This means one was logically driven to that decision. While it may fall under belief, it's belief is hinged upon evidence, not faith or instinct.

[Big Blue Marble]

14. You falsely assume that you have the capability

to be rational and logical in your beliefs, while others are ridiculously irrational in theirs.

Current brain research really does not support your claims of logic for yourself and not for others.

Besides what is the "evidence" that you offer for these claims?
And by the way, beliefs are just that, beliefs. Your argument becomes circular.

That is my original point, We do not have the capacity to know everything. We are all working in the dark.
We are left with underlying assumptions to explain our interpretation of reality.

Please do not misunderstand me. I fully accept your right to hold your opinions as I hold mine.
I can only be certain of one thing. Even though I think we would have wide areas of disagreement,
I do know that we are both wrong.

[Taverner]

16. Oh not taking this personally at all - Good debate, actually

But back to the issue at hand, yes you are correct about our brains not being logical - per se. Actually, current research shows our Conscious brains as not logical, whereas our subconscious ones as much more logical. Turns modern Psychology on its head, don't it?

But the reason I am convinced, is due to the evidence, such as the brain research. Yes, I could not come to this conclusion on my own, but with the help of years of scientific research being done by highly specialized scientists working in teams of other brilliant scientists, each cross checking and peer reviewing each other's work. And despite this, every so often personal biases can invalidate results - but this is the genius of the scientific method - it is self correcting. For example we no longer believe in Phrenology, even though it was thought to be correct 100 years ago.

[Big Blue Marble]

21. As you say today's evidence is tomorrow's misinterpretation.

We are aways trapped in our time and our culture as the shaping of our beliefs. So one hundred years from
now the evidence may support something else. We just do not know. I have learned from a lifetime of
study that humility is the best course.

I have also learned to become comfortable in living with the uncertainty that I can never really know reality. Logic
becomes a trap and is not as reliable as we have been taught as frustrating as that is to contemplate
as we all crave certainty.

I agree with you about the good debate. Thanks for the discussion. I do have to table it for now as
I have to get back to work.

[rrneck]

11. Hey,

If there are no miracles explain the career of David Hasselhoff.

[Taverner]

13. Germany

I mean shit, these guys still wear Speedos at the beach - and they wear socks with Birkenstocks!

[rrneck]

22. I stand corrected.

But only on a technicality.

:rofl:

[Angry Dragon]

15. Without magic you have no imagination

[Taverner]

17. Incorrect: without your subconscious you have no imagination

[Angry Dragon]

19. And you can prove there is no magic there??

[Taverner]

31. I dunno - is a computer 'magic'?

Is an airplane 'magic'?

[edhopper]

18. One of the best atheist I have ever known

was Isaac Asimov. He was also one of the most creative and imaginative sci fi wirters ever.
He did not believe in magic.

[Angry Dragon]

20. Just because one does not believe in something

doesn't mean it does not exist

[edhopper]

34. Look up

critical thinking and reason. "Belief" has nothing to do with it.

[okasha]

23. So? He didn't believe airplanes were safe, either--he had a phobia about flying.

Like most people, he was a mix of contemporary and atavistic, and the latter showed up in peculiar ways for someone so technologically and scientifically oriented.

[edhopper]

33. Could your reply be any more besides the point

He did not believe in magic and had a great imagination QED.

[Silent3]

25. You consider magic the only possible explanation for imagination?

How does that make sense? Where does such a requirement come from?

[Angry Dragon]

28. No .............

[Silent3]

30. If your answer to that question is "no", then at most you can say...

"Without magic you have no imagination... well, expect for the admittedly possible non-magical ways of having an imagination."

Kind of loses its pizazz that way, I've got to admit.

[enki23]

80. you got it backward. without imagination, you have no magic

in exactly the same way that without imagination you wouldn't have the fusion powered flying pink anti-vaccination unicorn ponies who cure cancer and spread love and infinite tax cuts across the land. and what the hell would we do without those?

[rug]

26. Not everyjting has a natural explanation. There remains many unexplained things.

To say they will be eventually explained requires a belief which remains unsupported by eveidence.

[Silent3]

29. That which is unexplained is just that, unexplained.

Whether explanations will eventually be forthcoming or not does not bolster the the explanatory power of ideas like magic and miracles. Absence of natural explanations is much more economically explained by ignorance, a phenomenon for which there is abundant evidence, than magic and miracles, phenomena with far less supportive evidence.

(Insert here: "Other ways of knowing" routine, where these "other ways of knowing" are never spelled.)

[Taverner]

32. Per 'other ways of knowing' they are....

Faith
Intuition
Sixth Sense
Telepathy
Prophecy

Basically, all other methods are woo woo shit :)

[rug]

38. And the one you posit is inadequate.

woo woo.

[Taverner]

47. How is the Scientific Method inadequate?

[rug]

37. Which, of course, undermines the premise of the OP.

Either things exist that are unexplained, perforce, not everything has a natural explanation.

Or, all things will be explained, which is a pleasant, hopeful belief.

[Silent3]

44. Depends what you mean by "has"

Does "has a natural explanation" mean that the explanation is in possession by humans, or can it mean the explanation is there, awaiting discovery?

Did rainfall have a natural explanation only after the basic principles of meteorology were understood by humans, or was the natural explanation there all along, simply for a time beyond our reach? Were rain gods a better explanation before we possessed a natural explanation?

What would it mean for something to not have a natural explanation anyway? As far as I'm concerned, the only consistent meaning of the word "supernatural" is to describe things that seem unnatural in that they are beyond our understanding of nature. "Nature", however, is best understood as a word that describes the world as it is, in all of its understood and unknown aspects. If there are deities or a deity, then they are natural too.

Once "nature" is taken in that sense, all that remains for explaining various phenomena are natural explanations which are known, and natural explanations which are not yet known, possibly including explanations which will always be beyond our reach, but nevertheless would be natural by definition.

[Taverner]

49. !!!

Exactly!

[Taverner]

48. No - I am just saying Natural Explanation is better than any other method

After all, for Natural Explanation aka The Scientific Method vs Everything Else the record is something like 1,000,000 to 0 for everything else...

Face it - Science is the ONLY thing that has worked

[edhopper]

35. Yes everything does have a natural explanation

Whether humans are capable of finding all the answers is open for debate.
Big deference.

[rug]

39. I guess I'll have to take wour word for it, since the evidence is not there.

I defer to your belief.

[edhopper]

41. Can you name something that has been explained

that did not have a natural explanation?

[rug]

42. No. And I can name many things that have not been explained naturally.

The converse error is called an error for good reason.

[Taverner]

50. What hasn't been explained naturally?

I want this list...

[cleanhippie]

55. You wont get that list because it doesnt exist. We all know it, but only some of us will acknowledge

that fact.

We'll see if rug comes back to chat about what you asked him. I'm not holding my breath though.

[rug]

62. Take your pick.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsolved_problems_in_physics

BTW, "yet" is not an explanation.

[Taverner]

69. But "yet" is the only answer that will work

Take Fermat's Last Theorem

That was "unsolvable"

That is, until it was solved

Same with Easter Island, The Pyramids, Stonehenge and many others....

[darkstar3]

71. Neither is "God did it."

[rug]

72. One does not imply the other.

[darkstar3]

73. No, but your argument track here is simple:

1. There are things that are as yet unexplained.
2. We must therefore not rule out the possibility of the supernatural.

It's "God of the gaps" in its most simple form.

[Taverner]

77. Exactly - if you're not going to rule out the supernatural...

Why rule out Zeus, Uranus and Gaia?

Why rule out Odin?

Why rule out 'this is all a bad dream of some junkie somewhere?'

[edhopper]

53. I will rephrase this

since it looks like you missed my point.
While we can name a multitude of things that have natural explanations, can you name anything that has been explained, but not explained naturally.
I extrapolate that since all explanations so far have been natural, future explanations will also likely be so.
Since nothing has a non-natural explanation so far, the likelihood of future non-natural explanations is remote.

[cleanhippie]

56. Rephrasing won't help. Your question leaves little room to wiggle out of the answer.

Probably why you won't get a response.

[Taverner]

58. "No wiggle room" because it is correct

That's the thing about explaining things without 'wiggle room'

Something like "That 17th Century Crystal Vase that's worth over a million dollars fell and shattered in a million pieces because of gravity and your carelessness." No wiggle room. God didn't do it, Ghosts didn't do it, Richard Nixon didn't come back from the grave and do it. With absolute clarity we can say that we saw YOU do it. In the kitchen, with a blowtorch and Col Mustard.

[rug]

63. Aren't you the little hovering pest.

[laconicsax]

36. You don't know that things unknown don't have natural explanations.

There was a time when no one knew what caused the change in seasons, but the natural explanation still existed.

Same with how rainbows work, what makes the sun glow, why glass is transparent, etc.

[rug]

40. Hmm, what was that about the burden of proof?

It's on the tip of my tongue . . . .

:dilemma:

[laconicsax]

46. I made no unsupported claims.

You said that not everything has a natural explanation. I replied that you don't know that, and gave the example of things which had an explanation before it was known what that explanation was.

Your claim that "not everything has a natural explanation" is unknowable at present. Unless you can explain everything, you can't know whether things do not have natural explanations.

[Silent3]

27. I can think of a few things only miracles are likely to fix...

...so in those cases, I wouldn't mind if there was some magic I could invoke. For the good of humankind, you know.

And, oh, maybe a few personal things I'd take care of.

Just as long as long the magic and the miracles off limits to people who would do things with them I wouldn't like.

[bvar22]

43. I disagree,

...and have an old pocket knife I bought from a Gypsy in an alley of Decatur Street in the Winter of 68 that will blow your mind.

Magic is one of the necessary components of an interesting life.

[Taverner]

52. Would you rather believe or know?

[bvar22]

61. I would rather not answer the question, and don't really have to.

I will keep some mystery & magic in my life.

I WILL keep my maps where some regions are marked "Unknown",
and "Here There Be Monsters."

I WILL always be in awe when I open our BeeHives and marvel at the collective intelligence of these incredible insects.

I WILL always be astonished when I witness a hen that was hatched in an incubator without a mother,
sits on her eggs and hatches her own chicks, and KNOWS that she needs to show her newborn chicks where the water is and how to drink,
and KNOWS that she must break off smaller pieces of fresh melon, put these smaller pieces on the ground, and show her chicks where the pieces of melon are, and that they are supposed to eat them.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=268x4762

When the same Hummingbirds return from Mexico to the exact spot where their feeder is supposed to be hanging after flying across the Gulf of Mexico, I will always go, "WOW. How did they remember where I live?"

All in all, I would rather we hadn't put footprints on The Moon, and left our junk there.
We might as well have put up a McDonalds sign.

The "GOD" of the Bibles and Books IS a ridiculous cartoon figure,
and I don't need to use "HIM" to explain these wonders, and don't.
I am grateful for some of the advances of Science, like anti-biotics,
but occasionally find myself asking, "Are we really "better off" as human beings with Atomic Weapons and Television?"

You can have your quest to explain every-fucking-thing.
I will keep my old maps with the "Here they be Monsters",
and areas marked "Unexplored",
and I will keep my sense of WONDER,
and the Magic of Lightning Bugs on a Summer evening.

I would tell you more of these wonders,
but I don't think you would understand,

....and you really should see this old Gypsy pocket knife I have.

[Humanist_Activist]

64. So basically, you celebrate your ignorance by refusing to know more about the world?

How is that possible, to suppress your curiosity like that? You seem to be under the impression that those of us who appreciate the discoveries of science lack wonder. Are you kidding me? Wonder and awe are two of the biggest motivations to go into science!

Wonder doesn't require mystery, indeed, wonder, the sense of awe, at the universe and world around us is only deepened when we actually understand an inkling of what's going on, and deepens further the more we know.

To label something as "magic" or "magical" shows a failure at imagination, its an easy way out.

Here's a simple example, the fact of evolution, as explained by Charles Darwin is humbling to humans, but also enthralling. Up until then, Humans were apart from animals, a line was clearly drawn, we were a special creation. But what didn't the theory of evolution explain, that we are but one branch on a family tree that represents an unbroken chain of ancestors going back over a billion years.

Cynics will say that because we aren't special and are "merely animals" that this destroys what it means to be human. I say that's not so, our species is still special, just not unique, and while we are animals, we are thinking animals, with civilization, fire, and yes even TV. It took the planet over 4 billion years till finally some environmental pressure was exerted that lead to us, and yet we waste it by bickering over whether this fact actually took place.

It helped redefine our place in the world, we are no longer apart from and above the rest of life, but a part of it, all life on the planet is connected, biologically, we are all cousins, family. If anything, this just deepens the wonder I have for life. But, and this is key here, none of this wonder is possible without my understanding of the concepts behind the theory of evolution, and the fact of evolution itself. I try to imagine what the tree of life, the family tree we all belong too, actually looks like. I see a tree with so many branches, we can't count them all, most on the low end of the tree, the trunk rising up, and near the top, all current species have their own branches, and humans are among them.

Would you like to know more? How about this, we know, thanks to science that not only are we connected to all the species of Earth, but that we are connected to the universe itself in the most fundamental way, we are a way for the universe to get to know itself. Everything that we are is thanks to what happened, billions of years ago, in the explosions of stars, in supernova, we stepped out of these, the most powerful of events in the universe, and now we can stand in awe of this fact. Do you have any idea how amazing that is, how special, and privileged we are that we live in this time, on the cusp of discovering so much more about the universe and ourselves. Instead of marking maps with "there be monsters here", perhaps its better to expand our horizons and see if the monster are real.

Forget magic, a failure of imagination and fantasy as anything else. Reality is where things get really exciting, no amount of magic even comes close to the majesty and beauty that exists in everything from the inside of a cell, to entire galaxies, and the structure of the universe itself. And most importantly, everything I mentioned is real and can be understood.

Oh, and just in case you think that all horizons are being explored, well, there's one we may never be able to cross, you can put your dragons and monsters there. Here's an interesting fact, the universe is about 13.7 billion years old, we can only see light that is that old or younger, and we can only see a distance that is about the same. But here's the interesting bit, the universe's actual size is about 93 billion light years across. Oh yes, we only can see a small fraction of it, and what we do see is filled with mysteries and wonders, but I'd like to know more about them, wouldn't you?

Perhaps not, perhaps my statements are lost on you, and that is truly your loss, you can indulge your fantasies and wallow in ignorance, but it is truly disappointing that someone of your intellect thinks the way you do, such a waste.

[bvar22]

65. I would invite you over...

..for Fresh Organic Green Beans & Cornbread,
& Blueberry Crisp made with just picked Blueberries,
but I don't think you could find us, even with a GPS.

BTW: My minor is in Mathematics,
and I enjoyed a successful career developing and improving cutting edge High Tech prototypes
for use in extreme environments (Heat & Pressure). At one time, I held several records for drilling High Angle
well bores, and was active front line in developing the techniques for Drilling, Navigating, and Surveying Horizontal Well Bores.

For someone who brands others with the label of "Ignorant",
you display a great deal of it yourself.
Some of the most ignorant people I have ever known
during a long technical career in applied Science,
have been "Engineers".

Good Luck living in your World.
I am very happy with mine.



There IS Magic here,
and you really should see my old Gypsy Pocket Knife.
:hi:

[Taverner]

68. What you call "magic" I call "wonder"

You can know why something happens, and still have a sense of awe about it...

[Humanist_Activist]

70. I used ignorant as a descriptive, rather than insulting word, sorry if I caused any offense...

I think I understand why you view science the way you do, you got it from engineers, engineers can suck the life out of anything. You should hang out with experimental scientists, or event theoreticians.

[Taverner]

67. It's not either/or - knowing why something happens does not diminish its awe

Supernovas, even though I understand why they do it, still amaze me

Same with apiculture...

[bvar22]

75. You "understamd" Supernovas.

That is one of the most arrogant and amusing statements I have ever read on DU.
You (and the collective body of ALL our scientists and accumulated knowledge) "understand" Supernovas about as well as my dog understands Pick Up Trucks.

To fully appreciate how arrogant your comment is,
go back and read what educated people were saying about Science in the 1930s.
They believed that they had already solved most of the mysteries,
and any day now, the Unified Theory would explain all the rest.

In 50 years if we don't manage to kill everybody, people will look back at our current peak of Scientific knowledge,
and laugh their asses off at what we primitives thought we "knew".

If you are willing to explore further, your claim actually implies God & Intelligent Design.
How else would someone who evolved from a Hunter Gatherer develop the Intelligence and Awareness to "understand" the UNIVERSE? There is NO "Need to Know THis" in our evolution.

Do you believe that Human Beings have the intelligence to "understand" something as complex as the Universe?
Can my dog can "understand" something as complex as my Pick Up Truck?

Only someone who believes in a GOD at some deep level could answer that question with a YES.

[Taverner]

76. "You can't HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!"

Is that what I hear you saying?

Talk about arrogance - and it is that 'God said it, I believe it and that settles it' shit that bothers me most about theism.

Sorry if I don't cower in fear of your god...I was busy laughing my head off at him

[bvar22]

78. Thats Odd.

You are the only one arguing FOR the existence of a GOD,
and you insist that that GOD is YOU.

OTOH, I believe that human beings are a very short term evolutionary aberration with an opposable thumb and some primitive tool making capabilities, living on an insignificant planet in an infinitely complex & expanding Universe, pretending that he can understand it all because that makes him feel good, like he can control it all, and make incredible claims that all the mysteries have been solved.

I have a cat that stares at the sunset every evening.
He has as much of a chance of "understanding" a Supernova as you do,
but probably a deeper appreciation.

Cheers!

[Taverner]

79. Supernovas - I don't get where there's "magic" I don't "understand":

Supernovae are extremely luminous and cause a burst of radiation that often briefly outshines an entire galaxy, before fading from view over several weeks or months. During this short interval a supernova can radiate as much energy as the Sun is expected to emit over its entire life span. The explosion expels much or all of a star's material at a velocity of up to 30,000 km/s (10% of the speed of light), driving a shock wave into the surrounding interstellar medium. This shock wave sweeps up an expanding shell of gas and dust called a supernova remnant.

Yep, sounds like a bunch of hoodoo voodoo to me :eyes:

[Humanist_Activist]

83. If your argument is true, we should still be living on the Serengeti...

working with stone tools. Is it really arrogance to claim that we are capable of understanding the Universe? Of course our understanding changes as more data, and more accurate data comes in, and we can't claim we are at the peak of scientific understanding, but we are on an upward slope of a exponential curve. Supernova are a phenomena we have been able to observe and analyze from great distances, we know the conditions needed for one to take place, and we know what occurs inside a star to trigger it and the aftermath. We know all this because we can see it and we have tools capable of analyzing it, one of them being our own brains. To claim we aren't capable, is actually showing a different type of arrogance, arrogance in knowing our limitations.

[Taverner]

66. I never said get rid of your sense of awe

Yes, beehives are awesome in the true meaning of that word, that is, to inspire awe...

They have simple dances that tell each other everything they need to know about where the flowers are, the hive mind uses chemicals to communicate with itself, and bees can see spectra that we can't unless we have high-end imaging solutions.

No, bees, are a source of wonder and amazement - and wonder is something I have never lost.

Even if I know why a supernova does what it does, doesn't mean it still doesn't make me stop dead in my tracks and just say "whoa" in your Keanu Reeves-ist voice...

[Nihil]

84. Catching up after an absence so I'm sorry this is late but I loved that post!

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious."

:toast:

[Manifestor_of_Light]

45. Rudolf Bultmann talked about this.

He was an early 20th century theologian.
He said all the miracles of Jesus could be explained by medical healing or scientific phenomena.

But he did not say you had to stop believing in Jesus as the Messiah. Interesting concept.

I don't believe; I KNOW that medical science works. I know that rational science works.

Saying something is "God's will" is just a way to avoid personal responsibility.

[Taverner]

51. I don't care if you believe in Jesus as the Messiah

I do care whether you want to address our issues with the scientific method

Big difference...

[Manifestor_of_Light]

82. Read my post above. I don't believe, I KNOW science works.

[Odin2005]

57. Exactly.

[Vehl]

59. +1

As I usually say to those who point to miracles and whatnot to prove god exists..."give me a microphone, a speaker..and a gallon of Kerosene...take me back to Moses's Era.....preferably near a bush...and Ill make him believe I'm god".

[Taverner]

60. Gotta have pyrotechnics!

Burning Bush = Tar and long burning plant matter!

[iris27]

74. I would rather admit we DON'T know, than believe.

There are still things we haven't figured out the natural explanation for. Doesn't mean the supernatural theories are accurate any more than they were for lightning, volcanoes, or the sun rising each morning.

[Lucian]

85. Best post ever on DU.

:thumbsup:

[cleanhippie]

86. +1