God is not an American

[Thats my opinion]

The wall of separation between church and state is a vital part of the American ethos. When that wall is violated society becomes subject to sectarian-authorized law, and religion finds itself bought and paid for by the government. It is a lose-lose proposition.

Equally insidious is a cozy relationship between religion and nationalism. When any religious rally finds its platform decorated with American flags, that gulf has been breached. Churches should probably not even have national flags decorating their chancels. Throughout history examples of this religious sponsored nationalism have been all too numerous as ways to mobilize religion against everything foreign.

In recent years there has emerged within the liberal religious community a powerful reaction to this use of religion. One now hears in myriads of churches the cry, “God is not an American.” Many new hymnals include a freshly minted international affirmation. Here is one such hymn copied from several hymnals:

THIS IS MY SONG
This is my song, O God of all the nations, 
A song of peace for lands afar and mine.
This is my home, the country where my heart is.
Here are my hopes, my dreams, my holy shrine;

But other hearts in other lands are beating
with hopes and dreams as true and high as mine.

My country's skies are bluer than the ocean, and sunlight beams on clover-leaf and pine.

But other lands have sunlight too and clover. 
And skies are everywhere as blue as mine. Oh hear my song, O God of all the nations. 
A song of peace for their land, and for mine.
Music: "Finlandia" by Jean Sibelius (1865-1957)
Words by Lloyd Stone (1912- )

[darkstar3]

1. If only more people here agreed with that idea.

Unfortunately, time and again I find posters defending the encroachment of church into state.

[skepticscott]

2. "Myriads of churches"?

Oh, please. More of your ridiculous and dishonest hyperbole about the allegedly huge movement among "liberal" and "progressive" Christians to take back their faith and make it into something that no one recognizes but you.

Where are these "myriads of churches"? Show us some news stories describing how "God is not an American" is being trumpeted from the pulpit of hundreds or thousands of churches all over the country.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

5. Almost a perfect run. But not quite.

Alas, the sentence "So be it" does NOT contain a personal attack. Tsk.

[skepticscott]

7. Looks like

I missed something good. That's what I get for sleeping...

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

9. Oh yeah, you did. Sorry, I should have copy-and-pasted it somewhere.

It seems connections have their limits. Good.

[Thats my opinion]

10. Hi the above and all of the below

I filed a bit showing a hymn from modern songbooks-among them the United Methodist Church, the United Church of Christ, the Disciples of Christ, the Australian ecumenical churches and many others. This hymn is widely used by groups that constitute many millions of Christians. The response was "more of your ridiculous and dishonest hyperbole---something no one recognized but you." ( I gather that this language does not violate the DU rules. Strange.)

Other responses from the small coterie of non-believers also ridiculed what I had said. It is as if to admit there is a sizable aggregation of liberal Christians somehow interferes with your prejudices, and you just don't want to hear that we exist. Well we do.

We are on the same team as you and want to reach the same goals but by different means. Allow liberal Christians the right without sarcasm or put downs such as "your ridiculous and dishonest hyperbole." I would think you would applaud that there are increasing numbers of us out there. It doesn't compromise your viewpoint..

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

11. 1st and 14!

[Adsos Letter]

12. "...to reach the same goals but by different means..."

Which different means?

[Thats my opinion]

13. Different means

Some here want to rally non-believers to support the Democratic goals of justice, peace, gay rights, labor rights, the end of poverty environmental protection, the separation of church and state and more. I want to rally believers--those who believe that religion and theology ought to serve the same purposes.

[darkstar3]

15. In other words, you wish "our side" to entangle religion and politics as effectively as "theirs."

Fuck that.

[Adsos Letter]

17. I absolutely agree that religion and politics must be disentangled

I know you weren't talking to me, but I hold those same sentiments regarding Church/State separation.

I am a Christian, but I would also do away with "Faith-Based" funding and strip the tax exemption from all churches as well.

Equal protection under a secular constitution.

[Thats my opinion]

18. I wish someone would tell me

why so many of you in this forum don't want the scads of liberals, who happen to be religious, in the battle for all the things in society we all want to see happen. Do you really hate religion that much? Is all you have to say "Fuck that."? Why bother with a DU forum on Religion and Theology?

[darkstar3]

19. You're the baby attempting to jump out with the bathwater.

What I said, unequivocally, is that it is a bad idea to entangle religion and politics, regardless of your political stripe. Under no circumstances does that mean that liberal believers shouldn't be "in the battle".

You are not your religion.

Just like you're not your fucking khakis...

[laconicsax]

20. If they can't be bothered to support progressive causes, fuck 'em.

Really. Why should we the minority have to cater to the majority's religion to ensure their support for the causes they supposedly already support?

AND

If someone won't come on board and join the fight for a progressive cause because a small number of atheists don't sufficiently suck up to their religion, fuck 'em.

It's an unreasonable demand for the majority to make a minority to stay silent in order to guarantee the majority's continued support. You wouldn't tell African-Americans to shut up or be nicer about institutional racism, women to shut up or be nicerabout institutionalized sexism, or LGBTQIers to shut up or be nicerabout institutionalized homophobia, so don't tell atheists to shut up or be nicer about institutionalized religious discrimination. And don't you ever fucking dare blame a minority group's perceived hostility for tepid members of the majority not supporting what's right.

If someone can't be bothered to support a cause because you don't like a minority, they're a bigot and a coward.

[darkstar3]

21. Great rant, and better said than mine, but one problem.

They do. They have.

We've had black men in the civil rights movement tell black women to worry more about being black than being women. Literally, black women were told that they couldn't be part of the feminist movement because it was more important for them to focus on racial equality and "pick their battles."

LGBTers are told to tone down "the ghey" and "pick their battles", because other liberal causes are more important right now than equal rights.

Shall I go on?

[laconicsax]

35. No need.

That it's done doesn't make it right.

[darkstar3]

40. Sorry.

I was responding to you, but not really...addressing you. I thought it might be beneficial to make a point.

[Thats my opinion]

22. I agree with you,

but I don't have the slightest idea whom you are talking about. We need each other in the struggle--all of us. Nobody asked you to cater to any majority or stay silent. NOBODY!

[laconicsax]

25. "I don't have the slightest idea whom you are talking about."

I know, and that's the problem.

[trotsky]

27. FTW! n/t

[trotsky]

29. I wish you'd tell me...

why you insist on framing this as "mean nasty intolerant atheists who don't want any religious liberals in the battle" vs. "brave liberal people of faith who just want to make the world better despite the efforts of mean nasty intolerant atheists"?

Could it be that we welcome ALL comers in the struggle for liberal goals, but we just don't want to ALL have to embrace and promote religion to do so? That's what the religious right does. We don't like it when they do it, how are we being any better when we do it? Because our goals are better? Do the ends justify the means?

How about we just work toward liberal goals together because they are the right thing to do, and leave the religion in your churches?

[Thats my opinion]

47. Now that's funny!

In a forum titled "Religion and Theology" the only thing you find acceptable is that which holds all religion and theology as bad--so you ask that in R/T we shouldn't say anything about either r or T. Maybe in this forum you all have been just talking to each other for too long

[laconicsax]

48. Do you practice talking past people?

You're really quite good at it.

[trotsky]

54. Nope, never said that.

This forum is for discussions regarding religion and theology. You are more than welcome to post whatever you want here regarding those matters. But when you start entangling your religion with politics and demand I respect and support that, I believe I have every right to express my disagreement.

[Adsos Letter]

16. Identifying issues and proposing solutions along the lines of Bellah's "Habits of the Heart?"

I'm just starting Shiffrin's The Religious Left and Church-State Relations (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 2009).

I'll be interested to see his take on this issue. I suspect you hold similar ideas, although I'm not familiar with your work (other than some of what I've seen posted here).

Edit: added "issues" to subject line and "(other than some of what I've seen posted here)" to final sentence.

[Thats my opinion]

50. To get my weekly newspaper column

contact me at

[e-mail]

[skepticscott]

14. So this great "cry" going up consists

of a single warm and fuzzy peace hymn that's dredged out maybe once a year, sung for four minutes among the members of a church because they're told to, and then largely forgotten until the same time the next year? That's it? No regular public declaration that "God is Not an American", nothing said for the news media by church leaders, nothing that makes any real difference in people's attitudes? Sorry, I'll stick with "ridiculous and dishonest hyperbole".

And please don't presume that your goals and mine are the same. You're free to pursue what goals you like, but when you trumpet your efforts from the mountaintop in such a grossly exaggerated way, expect to hear about it.

[Thats my opinion]

24. Patience--good request

In the weeks to come I'll pull together a list of resolutions, statements and public actions by the National
Council of Churches on a variety of issues. It is clear that your prejudices are showing again and you don't have the foggiest idea what is going on in our churches.

[trotsky]

28. What about the prejudice of the NCC?

Why won't they allow the UU church in?

I think that shows A LOT about what's going on in your churches.

[Thats my opinion]

32. The National Council of Churches

If you are really interested in the NCC I suggest you go their their website. It lists and defines the most recent actions and statements regarding social issues, including international concerns. What is shown is far more voluminous than even I had thought.
The UUC is a companion partner, but not a member. It is their decision. Yet they are deeply involved in all NCC affairs.

www.ncccusa.org

[skepticscott]

37. Seems like you make the same promise

every time one of your overblown promotions of "liberal" and "progressive" religion in this country is exposed for what it is. But it's always a deflection from the issue at hand, now isn't it?

So why not stick to the point that was raised in your OP and responded to by me: How does singing a feel-goody hymn for four minutes once a year, not even in public, constitute a "cry" going out from even one church, let alone "myriads", that "God is Not an American"?

And it's pretty much the exact point I'm making that this great "movement" you tout in "liberal" and "progressive" churches isn't known, isn't noticed, and isn't changing anything that matters in this country. So once again, without even realizing, you answer your own question.

[Thats my opinion]

51. To answer yours question

"How does singing a feel-goody hymn for four minutes once a year, not even in public, constitute a "cry" going out from even one church, let alone "myriads", that "God is Not an American"? If that were the only thing that happened, of course it wouldn't. But that is a silly question. Just for fun check out the National Council of Churches web site. Or maybe you just don't want to hear anything positive about what we do. In that case I doubt if you will check out this source.

www.ncccusa.org

[trotsky]

55. What about the prejudice of the NCC?

Why won't they allow the UU church in?

[skepticscott]

60. Except that the use of that hymn

was the BEST example you could give in your OP of this great "cry" going up, wasn't it? If the hymn really isn't significant in the way you originally claimed (as you just admitted), why, one wonders, did you not simply present better evidence to begin with? I can only assume that you still think you can throw out any nonsense that feels good in the room without it being challenged.

[rrneck]

3. You got something more than marketing spin?

Produce something besides hype and vacuous cheerleading for your team.

And while you're at it, try and remember you're trying to rally the troops to your banner on DEMOCRATICUNDERGROUND, a blatantly partisan website. Hawking your wares to the "liberal christian community" doesn't exactly lend credence to your endorsement of the seperation clause.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

6. Actually, yes he has.

Connections.

[cbayer]

59. Just so you (and everyone else) knows, I completely recuse myself from moderating

any of my father's threads or posts. He is perfectly capable of standing up for himself and doesn't need any help from me in any way.

Besides, I recognize that I could never be objective about him.... never.

So you can continue to insinuate that somehow he has special protection here, but you are wrong. Not just technically wrong, but truly unfair.

I am stating this as an individual and not representing the views of any one else.

[Adsos Letter]

65. I don't think you needed to say this, but I support your saying it.

I don't think anyone is truly capable of complete objectivity, especially where parents are concerned. :hi:

I think it good that you made your position, vis a vis Moderation, clear. :thumsup:

[Igel]

8. Oh, goodie.

Another hymn saying, "Look God at how good I am. Just wanted to let you know that I know it, and believe that everybody else is just like me."

The first commandment has gradually morphed into, "Love yourself as god. And the second is like unto it, love others like yourself." Commandments many Xians are firmly behind, but which many atheists are into, as well. Building bridges.

[drakonyx]

23. From "Watchmen"

"God exists, and he is American."

[Humanist_Activist]

26. "O God of all the nations" I think India, China, Japan, and numerous other nations...

would take issue with that statement. Its funny, most liberal churches don't believe in converting others to their religion(contradicting Jesus' word), yet they still can't help but display an automatic arrogance in assuming they are right and every other religion is wrong.

[Thats my opinion]

30. Read it again

It says nothing about Jesus or any particular religion or even religion in general.

[trotsky]

31. You left off the 3rd verse.

This is my prayer, O Lord of all earth's kingdoms:
Thy kingdom come on earth thy will be done.
Let Christ be lifted up till all shall serve him,
And hearts united learn to live as one.
Oh hear my prayer, thou God of all the nations;
Myself I give thee; let thy will be done.

[Thats my opinion]

33. That's the original poem

but you won't find that verse in progressive hymnals!
The third--and questionable line about Christ, now reads,"In peace may all earth's people draw together, and hearts united beat as one."

[trotsky]

34. "you won't find that verse in progressive hymnals"

Oh, good to know you've checked them all.

[laconicsax]

36. He doesn't have to.

"progressive hymnals" is a wonderfully vague term that is perfect for NTS and moving the goalposts.

[skepticscott]

38. Yes, No True Progressive Hymnal

will contain that line in the third verse.

[trotsky]

39. LMAO

You guys are awesome.

[Iggo]

56. NTPH.

LOL...that's my new thing.

:rofl:

[Thats my opinion]

44. Tell me why

you all are so resentful of progressive Christians. Is it that we spoil your absolute condemnation of everything religious? Is it that you just don't want to face the fact that there are progressive groups around? Does it rain on your prejudice that all religion is narrow and repressive? Why not just celebrate that we not only exist but are increasingly important in the social scene? Why am I your enemy?

[darkstar3]

46. You asked that question above. See #19, and kwitcherbitchin.

[laconicsax]

49. If I thought anything resembling what you posted, I'd have an answer.

Unfortunately for you, I'm not resentful of liberal Christians, nor do I seek to condemn everything religious. I love that there are progressive groups, and I don't think that all religion is narrow and repressive. I've never questioned the fact that liberal Christians exist and hold sway.

I've thought many uncomplimentary things about you, but I've never thought of you as my enemy. Sorry to spoil your fun; you really seemed to be enjoying playing with that straw.

[Thats my opinion]

52. OK point well-taken

But it would be a waste of time for me to back over many of the things written in answer to my posts-- which say exactly that--if not by you.

[laconicsax]

53. Maybe you could make the effort to pay attention in the future.

I know for a fact that I've never expressed the sentiments you attributed to me, and I don't recall anyone else on this board expressing them either.

You've expressed your prejudices several times here and seem to allow them to color your interpretation of what others have said, as you just did with me. You might find it useful to start paying attention to what is actually said in these discussions and by whom.

[rrneck]

41. How much of Christianity do you plan to discard

before you decide it's Christianity?

[skepticscott]

42. Doesn't matter

God is just a process anyway.

[rrneck]

43. Process or product? nt

[Humanist_Activist]

45. It asserts monotheism, a concept that's not universally shared among many nations...

in addition to some with religions that aren't theistic at all(no god to speak of) or nothing more than spirits or archetypes. Its exclusionary just because of the mention of a universal, ONE god.

[54anickel]

57. I find it sad that you've twisted the original 1934 intent of the repenning of those lyrics rather

than let the beauty of the song speak for itself to the individual listener....however they may interpret it. That is the beauty of the arts, and especially music, in that they speak to our souls in ways that words alone never could. Sometimes it is best to let the spirit of the music speak for itself. It has much to say, though it rarely says the same thing any two individuals.

I'm sharing this for folks to actually listen to. Although, sadly, the individual response will now be tainted by the discussion of this thread.

http://donanton.org/2011/05/11/song-of-the-day-may-12-2011-indigo-girls-this-is-my-song-finlandia/

[Thats my opinion]

58. The Indigo Girls

to whom you refer, never used the third verse of that poem at all.

It is common practice in hymnology to take a poem and retool it for liturgical use.
The two verses usually found in modern hymnals use only the first two verses. Occasionally, as in the
Chalice hymnal, the third verse is used but recast to reflect a sound theological setting.

[rrneck]

61. Retooled?

:rofl:

Retooled for liturgical use. You mean appropriated to increase cultural market share.

[Thats my opinion]

63. Maybe a definition of bigotry

is to look for any negative interpretation you can put on something and overlook everything else. The third verse, if used, is revised not for any marketing purpose, but because the progressive church stands against any religious exclusivism that sees America as
God's chosen nation, and puts down all others including all other's religions. Why do you need to be snarky even of perspectives you might agree with?

[rrneck]

64. Most bigots post stuff like this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=293240&mesg_id=293914

A definition of hypocrisy might be to claim one's particular practice of faith to be such an important foundation of values they are inseperable from government, then proselytize his faith on a political forum by "retooling" a poem while still trading on its pedigree. All the while lamenting the lack if seperation of church and state.

The practice of "retooling" culture "to reflect a sound theological setting" reveals a jaundiced understanding of the human condition bereft of inspiration and bent on plastering its imprimatur on everything it sees as efficiently as possible.

You want to inspire people? Write your own material.

[54anickel]

62. When you asked to repost it here I assumed you were asking about the Indigo Girls song

since that was my original post in the group.
My mistake...saddened nonetheless.