Atheist Billboards in Brazil pull no punches

[pokerfan]

“Religion does not define character”


“Faith gives no answers. It only impedes questions.”


“We are all atheists with the gods of others”


“If God exists, everything is permitted.”

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2011/08/01/these-atheist-billboards-in-brazil-get-right-to-the-point

[Blecht]

1. Voltaire's quote comes to mind looking at that last one

“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.”

[Auggie]

7. +1,000,000

[cleanhippie]

2. Right is right, truth is truth.

[pokerfan]

4. Bertrand Russell: What We Must Do

(from Why I Am Not a Christian)

We want to stand upon our own feet and look fair and square at the world -- its good facts, its bad facts, its beauties, and its ugliness; see the world as it is and be not afraid of it. Conquer the world by intelligence and not merely by being slavishly subdued by the terror that comes from it. The whole conception of God is a conception derived from the ancient Oriental despotisms. It is a conception quite unworthy of free men. When you hear people in church debasing themselves and saying that they are miserable sinners, and all the rest of it, it seems contemptible and not worthy of self-respecting human beings. We ought to stand up and look the world frankly in the face. We ought to make the best we can of the world, and if it is not so good as we wish, after all it will still be better than what these others have made of it in all these ages. A good world needs knowledge, kindliness, and courage; it does not need a regretful hankering after the past or a fettering of the free intelligence by the words uttered long ago by ignorant men. It needs a fearless outlook and a free intelligence. It needs hope for the future, not looking back all the time toward a past that is dead, which we trust will be far surpassed by the future that our intelligence can create.

http://users.drew.edu/~jlenz/whynot.html

[cleanhippie]

18. A big fat AMEN to that, Brother Russell! And some Carl Sagan to buttress it.

For me, it is better to grasp the universe as it really is, rather than to persist in delusion, no matter how reassuring or satisfying. - Carl Sagan

[humblebum]

59. Another Bertrand Russell quote:

"Bolshevism deserves the gratitude and admiration of all the progressive part of mankind."

[darkstar3]

60. Warning

Anyone below this line has been trolled.
---------------------------------

[PassingFair]

61. Why am I reminded of one of my favorite comic strips?

[Kurmudgeon]

3. Hitler planned to destroy Christianity after the war.

So it is disingenuous in the extreme to claim he was a Christian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_religious_views
"He sometimes made public statements which seemed to affirm religion (which suited his political purposes) and prior to 1940 had promoted a "positive Christianity", purged of Judaism and instilled with Nazi philosophy, but in private was hostile to Christianity and had a plan to destroy it after the war."

People who have to lie to make their point shouldn't be taken very seriously. If that's Brazil's flavor of atheism, so be it.

[arcane1]

5. The question is not whether Hitler was a Christian

Heck, most of our born-again politicians don't believe a word of their religious claims. They use religion to get people to go along with them. So did he.

[trotsky]

10. Yes, all bad people are clearly atheists.

Right?

[arcane1]

11. Huh?

I'm an atheist too! :shrug:

[trotsky]

12. If bad people don't really believe the religious dialog they are pushing,

then what are they?

[arcane1]

14. I don't know if he was a true believer or not

My point was that the billboard is valid either way. Believer or not, he used the religious beliefs of the German people to achieve his ends.

Kurmudgeon was trying to say the Hitler billboard isn't appropriate because of what Hitler may or may not have believed, and I was disagreeing with that.

I think we're on the same side but I'm just not expressing it well :)

[trotsky]

16. OK, no prob!

:hi:

[tortoise1956]

94. Take that out to it's logical conclusion

If bad people don't believe what they are pushing on others, then what are they?

They're hypocrites, that's what. Simple answer.

I personally don't care what you believe in, as long as you are:
1. Sincere in your beliefs
2. Don't attempt to force others to accept your beliefs
3. Don't disparage or persecute those who hold other beliefs, and most importantly
4. Live your life in such a way as to leave this earth a better place than when you were born.

If more people lived by these rules, there would be hell of a lot less pain and despair.

Of course, that's just MY opinion - I could be wrong...

[darkstar3]

6. Yes, and wikipedia is accurate, especially about troll-bait subjects like Hitler.

No one in Brazil lied. Hitler might have, but when the man told the masses that he was doing God's work, well, everything else is just conjecture.

[trotsky]

8. Unless you were able to read his mind...

you honestly can't say. They aren't lying any more than you are.

[pokerfan]

9. No True Scotsman?

http://www.evilbible.com/hitler_was_christian.htm

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people."
–Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

[struggle4progress]

40. I'm not really sure why, in this forum, we persist in taking Nazi quotes at face value.

[trotsky]

41. Stalin claimed to be an atheist. I believe him.

Do you think he was lying too? Or is it just the people who say things you don't like to hear that are lying?

[Goblinmonger]

46. ZING!

It's a bummer when one's logic is turned around on one.

[trotsky]

48. And I got to do it to him twice in the same thread.

LOL

[pokerfan]

58. Does it matter?

Whether or not Hitler was a true Christian is beside the point because he exploited a thousand years of Christian antisemitism in order to achieve his aims.

Was Martin Luther a "true" Christian?
http://www.humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm

[struggle4progress]

72. The topic under discussion seems to be the claim of the first billboard in the OP.

Perhaps we could try not to wander randomly from one topic to another in this thread?

[pokerfan]

85. I was just curious

how far you guys would take the No True Scotsman fallacy. Question answered.

[struggle4progress]

87. I should expect "NTS!" not to be the retort to a claim "So-and-so was an opportunistic liar,"

but silly goosing seems to be common in this forum

[ZombieHorde]

22. Do you have a non-Wikipedia source for that? nt

[dmallind]

33. He didn't put sugar in his porridge eh? Claims are all we can use to judge the beliefs of others' n

[struggle4progress]

42. ... How Hitler's Forces Planned To Destroy German Christianity

By JOE SHARKEY
Published: January 13, 2002

... In the 1920's, as they battled for power, the Nazis realized that the churches in overwhelmingly Christian Germany needed to be neutralized before they would get anywhere. Two-thirds of German Christians were Protestants, belonging to one of 28 regional factions of the German Evangelical Church. Most of the rest were Roman Catholics. On one level, the Nazis saw an advantage. In tumultuous post-World War I Germany, the Christian churches ''had long been associated with conservative ways of thought, which meant that they tended to agree with the National Socialists in their authoritarianism, their attacks on Socialism and Communism, and in their campaign against the Versailles treaty'' that had ended World War I with a bitterly resentful Germany.

But there was a dilemma for Hitler. While conservatives, the Christian churches ''could not be reconciled with the principle of racism, with a foreign policy of unlimited aggressive warfare, or with a domestic policy involving the complete subservience of Church to State.'' Given that these were the fundamental underpinnings of the Nazi regime, ''conflict was inevitable,'' the summary states. It came, as Nazi power surged in the late 1920's toward national domination in the early 30's.

According to Baldur von Schirach, the Nazi leader of the German youth corps that would later be known as the Hitler Youth, ''the destruction of Christianity was explicitly recognized as a purpose of the National Socialist movement'' from the beginning, though ''considerations of expedience made it impossible'' for the movement to adopt this radical stance officially until it had consolidated power ...

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/13/weekinreview/word-for-word-case-against-nazis-hitler-s-forces-planned-destroy-german.html?pagewanted=all


THE NAZI MASTER PLAN
ANNEX 4: THE PERSECUTION OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCHES
... Rutgers Journal of Law and Religion (2001) ...
<pdf:> http://www.leics.gov.uk/the_nazi_master_plan.pdf

[trotsky]

43. "According to Baldur von Schirach, the Nazi leader of the German youth corps..."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x294584#294779
"I'm not really sure why, in this forum, we persist in taking Nazi quotes at face value."

[struggle4progress]

44. I provided a pdf link to the document on which the NYT article is based: it is a re-publication,

in a Rutgers journal, of a post-WWII study. I will, of course, continue to assert that "context matters" -- and so it seems significant to me that post-WWII a number of lower-level Germans gave rather different accounts of the official stances and intents, than had been projected earlier by public speeches

[trotsky]

47. LOL

You can trust SOME Nazis - well, at least the ones who are saying what YOU want to hear.

[laconicsax]

49. ZING!

:rofl:

[struggle4progress]

53. It's part of a study used by the Nuremberg investigators. Conclusions probably aren't controversial

except among neo-Nazi revisionists

[trotsky]

55. It's OK. I'm sure we can trust the Nazis who say what you want to hear. n/t

[Taverner]

51. This is what is referred to as "revisionism"

As in "incorrect revisionism"

[struggle4progress]

54. Hardly: the document was used by the Nuremberg prosecutors

[trotsky]

56. And we can be certain no Nazi would have lied...

to save his own ass.

[Goblinmonger]

45. If you read his super-secret interviews (can't remember the name)

he wanted to make sure that the teachings of Christ were removed of the travesty that was letters of that Jew Paul/Saul. He thought the Jews co-opted the religion and it needed to be purged of that. It isn't that he didn't like Christianity, but that he didn't like the pervading view of it--much like a lot of the sects now (not that they are like Hitler but that they all claim that THEY are the real sect)

[struggle4progress]

57. You're garbling several different things. During the "Church-Struggle" period in the early years of

the Third Reich, the Nazi state attempted a direct take-over of the churches, replacing crucifixes with swastikas on altars, for example, but they encountered significant resistance and backed off

Afterwards, they adopted a more piecemeal attack. Serious religious opponents were imprisoned (as with Niemoller), assaulted (as with the Jehovah's Witnesses), or otherwise marginalized (as with the seizure of Catholic properties to support the war effort). The Nazis further set out to "de-Judaicize" Christianity, going so far as to produce "Bibles" and "worship books" from which "Jewish influences" (including words like "hosanna" and "alleluia") had been removed, and they supported "theologians" who argued Jesus of Nazareth was really Aryan rather than Jewish. A further aspect of the piecemeal attack was the "leaving the church" movement: progressing in various sectors of the Nazi apparatus was somewhat lubricated for people who explicitly ended their church participation

No "super-secret interviews" are needed to show this: the historical record here is public and clear

There are some interviews available that clarify this picture a bit, but they are really not needed to discern the general outlines of Nazi policy

[LAGC]

64. Well, it just sounds like the Nazis wanted a particular VERSION of Christianity to prevail.

None of what you said detracts from Hitler's own admitted vision.

And how do you explain the Nazi embrace of "Gott Mit Uns" on all their military apparel?

Just because the Nazis used religion to promote their agenda, doesn't mean many of them didn't truly believe they were TRUE CHRISTIANS.

[struggle4progress]

65. NSDAP Kreisleitung Eisenach 1 July 1941

Memo Nr. 23/41: To all Kreis Speakers and Training Speakers

I ask you to inform me immediately if you and your family have any commitment to a church or church-related organization, alongside your commitment to the Führer’s worldview.

If yes, I ask you to tell me if and when you intend to voluntarily break that commitment. A political leader and propagandist may have no other commitment, if he wants to be an honest National Socialist, than that to the Führer and the party.

He and his family must serve the German people and its Führer without any reservations, and trust him absolutely.

Please respond ...

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/koehler.htm

[struggle4progress]

66. ... A Hitler Youth marching song ...

We follow not Christ, but Horst Wessel,
Away with incense and Holy Water,
The Church can go hang for all we care,
The Swastika brings salvation on Earth ...

http://www.bede.org.uk/hitler.htm

[struggle4progress]

67. Jewish references erased in newly found Nazi Bible

... The first to go were the 10 Commandments. The Nazi 12 run: “Honour God and believe in him wholeheartedly. Seek out the peace of God. Avoid all hypocrisy. Holy is your health and life! Holy is your wellbeing and honour! Holy is your truth and fidelity! Honour your father and mother -- your children are your aid and your example. Keep the blood pure and your honour holy! Maintain and multiply the heritage of your forefathers. Always be ready to help and to forgive. Honour your Fuehrer and master! Joyously serve the people with work and sacrifice. That is what God wants from us!” ...

Hansjoerg Buss of the Nordelbischen Church Office discovered the Bible in an archive search.

It was printed in 1941 by a company in Weimar and was shipped out to thousands of churches across Nazi-occupied Europe. It is understood most have been destroyed.

The name of the office .. created to shape the Bible in his image was the ‘Institute for the research and removal of the Jewish influence on German church life’ ...

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/15548/jewish-references-erased-in-newly-found-nazi-bible

This has nothing to do with "variants" of Christianity: it reflects a systematic Nazi attack on the religion

[struggle4progress]

68. "... What the Hitler government envisioned for Germany was clearly set out in a thirty-point program

for the 'National Reich Church' drawn up during the war by <Alfred> Rosenberg, an outspoken pagan, who among his other offices held that of 'the Fuehrer’s Delegate for the Entire Intellectual and Philosophical Education and Instruction for the National Socialist Party.' A few of its thirty articles convey the essentials: ...

5. The National Church is determined to exterminate irrevocably the strange and foreign Christian faiths imported into Germany in the ill-omened year 800 ...

13. The National Church demands immediate cessation of the publishing and dissemination of the Bible in Germany ...

18. The National Church will clear away from its altars all crucifixes, Bibles and pictures of saints.

19. On the altars there must be nothing but Mein Kampf (to the German nation and therefore to God the most sacred book) and to the left of the altar a sword ..."

The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich: A History of Nazi Germany
William L. Shirer ...

http://mynym.blogspot.com/2004/11/nazism.html

[struggle4progress]

70. Original Document

http://docs.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/psf/box31/a296p05.html

[struggle4progress]

69. ... Rosenberg expressed his theory as to the place of religion in the National Socialist State

in the "Myth of the Twentieth Century" ... In the place of traditional Christianity, Rosenberg sought to implant the neo-pagan myth of the blood ... Rosenberg's attitudes on religion were accepted as the only philosophy compatible with National Socialism ... Rosenberg actively participated in the program for elimination of church influence. Bormann frequently wrote Rosenberg in this regard, furnishing him information as to proposed action to be instituted against the churches and, where necessary, requesting that action be taken by Rosenberg's department ...

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/Rosenberg.html

[LAGC]

71. Wow, spam-o-rama.

Anyone can point to a few anti-religious members of the Nazi Party.

But I guess we will never know what the Nazis really had in mind, since they lost the war.

Had they won the war, I'm sure most modern-day Christians would be singing a completely different political tune.

[struggle4progress]

73. Eh? I've given you multiple links supporting my comments in #57. I'm not sure how

that qualifies as "spam" -- but if you think I'm spamming the board, feel free to notify the mods of the rule violation

Rosenberg and Bormann, of course, were top Nazis: Hitler appointed Rosenberg to head the party while Hitler served time for his putsch attempt; Bormann was in the Berlin bunker at the end. Since Hitler had dictatorial powers and was not known for tolerating dissent, the views of Rosenberg and Bormann are relevant if discussing the views of Hitler. Rosenberg's high status in Nazi circles is further reflected by his appearance in the dock at Nuremberg

[trotsky]

74. Yup, and each link does nothing to dispel the notion...

that it "sounds like the Nazis wanted a particular VERSION of Christianity to prevail." In fact, they actually seem to support that idea.

So thanks for all the work!

[struggle4progress]

78. You'd be much more interesting to read if you put a bit more thought into your posts:

you could, for example, try to do a tad of careful historical research to support your views; or you could actually try to elaborate your thinking; at least, you could read the links and arguments, that other posters provide, instead of merely dashing off your one-liners, hoping to provoke some reaction

[trotsky]

80. When you provide me with something that requires a response deeper than a one-liner...

I shall oblige.

[struggle4progress]

84. I've provided eight links and some overview; you, on the other hand, merely sneer

[trotsky]

86. I refer you to the post to which you just responded. n/t

[provis99]

93. the tired old "No True Scotsman" argument.

Hitler STILL hasn't been excommunicated from the Catholic Church. Yet Goebbels was, because he married a Protestant.

[struggle4progress]

95. "Excommunication" means refusing to give the sacrament of communion: when, at any time

after moving out of his mother's house, did Hitler ever attend a Catholic service or take communion?

A similar question can be asked about Goebbels: when, do you imagine, Goebbels was going to Catholic church to attempt to take communion? By the time the Nazis came to power, Goebbels was anti-Catholic, and as Minister of Propaganda he helped coordinate a major anti-Catholic campaign in the 1930s. The Catholics, of course, wouldn't have wed Goebbels in 1931: his wife (Johanna Maria Magdelene "Magda" Goebbels) was a divorcee who had previously been wed (1921-1929) to industrialist Gunther Quandt, and Goebbels married Quandt's former wife at Quandt's farm. Magda's views were a bit nebulous: maybe she had some interest in Buddhism:

Magda Goebbels
The First Lady of the Third Reich
Author: Hans-Otto Meisner
The Dial Press, New York, 1980
In response to World War I, Magda's father acquired an interest in the "peaceful teaching" of Gautama Siddhartha -- the Buddha. And through her father Magda became devoted to Buddhism. "Buddhist literature," writes Meisner, "was always to be found by her bedside" ... http://www.fsmitha.com/review/r-meisner.htm

[Goblinmonger]

96. Um, it means a lot more than that.

It means to deny church membership. The "communication" in the word is not about communion but about the community. And it means you are no longer part of the church and hell bound. Some excommunications can be reversed, some can't.

As a side note, I went to a shrine put up by a schism faction which resulted in my immediate excommunication by order of the pope. Not that I wasn't previously excommunicated for stating my disbelief in god but it was fun to get one more under my belt.

[struggle4progress]

97. Code of Canon Law

BOOK VI. SANCTIONS IN THE CHURCH
PART I. DELICTS AND PENALTIES IN GENERAL
TITLE I THE PUNISHMENT OF DELICTS IN GENERAL
Can. 1311 The Church has the innate and proper right to coerce offending members of the Christian faithful with penal sanctions.
Can. 1312 §1. The following are penal sanctions in the Church:
1/ medicinal penalties, or censures, which are listed in cann. 1331-1333 ...
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P4U.HTM

BOOK VI. SANCTIONS IN THE CHURCH
PART I. DELICTS AND PENALTIES IN GENERAL
TITLE IV. PENALTIES AND OTHER PUNISHMENTS (Cann. 1331 - 1340)
CHAPTER I. CENSURES
Can. 1331 §1. An excommunicated person is forbidden:
1/ to have any ministerial participation in celebrating .. the Eucharist or any other ceremonies of worship ...
2/ to celebrate .. and to receive the sacraments;
3/ to exercise any ecclesiastical offices ...
§2. If the excommunication has been imposed or declared, the offender:
1/ who wishes to act against the prescript of §1, n. 1 must be prevented from doing so, or the liturgical action must be stopped unless a grave cause precludes this;
2/ invalidly places acts of governance which are illicit according to the norm of §1, n. 3;
3/ is forbidden to benefit from privileges previously granted;
4/ cannot acquire validly a dignity, office, or other function in the Church;
5/ does not appropriate the benefits of a dignity, office, any function, or pension, which the offender has in the Church ...
Can. 1335 If a censure prohibits the celebration of sacraments .. the prohibition is suspended whenever it is necessary to care for the faithful in danger of death. If a latae sententiae censure has not been declared, the prohibition is also suspended whenever a member of the faithful requests a sacrament .. for any just cause.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P4X.HTM

BOOK VI. SANCTIONS IN THE CHURCH
PART I. DELICTS AND PENALTIES IN GENERAL
TITLE V. THE APPLICATION OF PENALTIES
...Can. 1347 §1. A censure cannot be imposed validly unless the offender has been warned at least once beforehand to withdraw from contumacy and has been given a suitable time for repentance.
§2. An offender who has truly repented of the delict and has also made suitable reparation for damages and scandal or at least has seriously promised to do so must be considered to have withdrawn from contumacy ...
Can. 1352 §1. If a penalty prohibits the reception of the sacraments or sacramentals, the prohibition is suspended as long as the offender is in danger of death.
§2. The obligation to observe an undeclared latae sententiae penalty which is not notorious in the place where the offender is present, is suspended totally or partially whenever the offender cannot observe it without danger of grave scandal or infamy ...
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P50.HTM

[Goblinmonger]

98. What's your point, Googlemaster? That I was right?

It's not just about communion as you stated it was.

[humblebum]

13. Brazil has had a sizable and vocal humanist/atheist community for years.

Comte's Religion of Humanity established Churches of Humanity there in the 19th century. Those advertisements are very similar to the one's around the Soviet Union in the 1920's and 30's.

[localroger]

15. Brazil has a surprisingly strong Singularity community

Not just Rapture of the Nerds followers, but nerds who are actually trying to make this Rapture happen. They don't seem to be aware that they are a bunch of backward third-worlders in this endeavour.

[Odin2005]

17. Looks like this Transhumanist should move to Brazil if the US continues going downhill.

And Brazil won't be "Backwards 3rd World" for every long.

[cleanhippie]

19. Oh for fucks sake! Prove it or else you are a liar!

I will admit it if you are right but you incessant attempts to make non believers out to be the same as soviet communists has become not only boring, but intelectually dishonest.

Prove your assertion or be branded a liar.

[humblebum]

24. Uh? Well? I have shown much of this before, but here's a link.

http://www.soviethistory.org/index.php?page=subject&show=images&SubjectID=1924antireligion&Year=1924&navi=byYear

http://www.soviethistory.org/index.php?page=subject&show=video&SubjectID=1929religion&Year=1929&navi=byYear

[cleanhippie]

25. Seriously? You feel that the Brazil posters are the same as those you linked to?

Seriously?

[humblebum]

27. Extremely similar in both subject and tone. There are hundreds and hundreds of them.

And many of them have the same basic message.

[cleanhippie]

34. While I strongly disagree about the similarity, you are not a liar. You actually believe they are

The same. It's unfortunate that your hatred keeps you blinded to the fact that they are not the same at all.

[humblebum]

36. Same movement, repackaged. nt

[cleanhippie]

37. Same movement? Where is the Communism?

What astounds me is that you refuse to accept that it was COMMUNISM, not atheism, that was the "movement. "


But those with agendas typically only see things the way they want to, as you have demonstrated.

[humblebum]

38. Well, you are finally speaking some truth:

"Those with agendas typically only see things the way they want to."

Atheism is atheism. Communism is communism.


- Is the Position of Atheism Growing Stronger? By Joseph McCabe (1936)

“No wonder they hated and libeled Russia! For the news is spreading, and is triumphing even over reactionary opposition that Russia is doing the finest and soundest reconstructive work of our time, and it is doing this, not only without God, but on a basis of militant Atheism.”

[cleanhippie]

75. As usual, you digress. There are no similarities between this and the brazil atheists.

With the exception of a lack of belief, there is none.



You know, it's 2011, right?

[humblebum]

76. As usual, in a state of denial.

And what does the date have to do with anything? There is really nothing new about New Atheism. Same old philosophy, next generation.

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cleanhippie]

79. Yes, you are in a total state of denial.

You keep pointing to Communist posters and somehow equate them to atheists poster, and claim they are the same.



Denial, indeed.

[humblebum]

81. Well, when atheism is clearly the subject of the poster or clearly

printed, it's pretty hard to state anything else. And it wasn't communism that Russell and McCabe were enthused about. And it may even be that the Brazilian atheists have a connection with the Communist Party of Brazil. I do not know. The country does have a relatively active Communist party. It is much easier for atheism to thrive in a communist system.

[cleanhippie]

82. Yes, we know all of that. So why do you point to communist posters and say they are the same?

Its YOUR assertion, not mine.

[humblebum]

83. So where does it advertise communism on any of them. The atheists

in Russia had the same, identical philosophical roots as organized atheist groups anywhere else, and in any time period post-French Revolution. The blathering bolshevic himself, Hitchens, is/was a Trotskyite and a fan of Marx and Lenin, by his own admission.

[LeftishBrit]

26. So the Soviet Communists were strongly atheist

That does NOT mean that everyone who is strongly atheist is similar to a Soviet Communist.

It's equivalent to saying that, because anti-Communism was a key component of fascism and McCarthyism, everyone who is anti-Communist is a fascist or McCarthyite. Or to saying that because Al Quaeda was against the Bush (or any American) government, anyone who opposes Bush is 'with the terrorists'. (As Bush did imply!)

I am an atheist; that doesn't mean that I support the Soviet Communists.

I don't/didn't like the Soviet communists; that doesn't mean that I'm a fascist.

I hated Bush; that doesn't mean that I'm a supporter of terrorists.

I support religious freedom, and state neutrality on the matter of people's religion. That means that the state should not impose atheism (as the Soviet government did) OR impose any religion.

[humblebum]

28. Why do you compare apples to oranges. I'm talking atheist movements here, not Communism.

but as far as the anti-religious messages and attitudes, they are very much the same. I'm referring to the Militant Atheist movement in the USSR and the movement in Brazil. They are both bigoted hate movements.

[LeftishBrit]

29. In what way are any of these messages hateful or bigoted?

“We are all atheists with the gods of others”

"Religion does not define character"

"Faith gives no answers; it only impedes questions"

“If God exists, everything is permitted.”

The only one that MIGHT be seen as criticizing religious people, rather than disagreeing with religion, is the last one, and that is obviously imitating the common religious statement, 'If God does not exist, everything is permitted'. Do you consider that hateful too?

Their main slogan is 'End prejudice against atheists'. This hardly seems hateful.

Question: Do you really consider that ANY atheist movement is by its nature evil? If not, what sort of atheist movement would be acceptable to you? If so, then do you object to all movements to defend particular ideologies or beliefs, or is atheism the only one?

[humblebum]

30. They are certainly bigoted in the fact that they are singling out religion

and religious people. If I began putting up bill boards advertising the atrocities committed by atheists and atheists groups, I am sure there would be a reaction. And believe me, the numbers FAR outweigh anything done by any religious group.

[LeftishBrit]

31. So if you don't mention atrocities committed by religous groups, is it OK to promote atheism?

[humblebum]

32. There are many wonderful, caring atheists around. You are free

to promote anything you feel like promoting. You don't have to ask anyone, but there are always consequences for actions, both good and bad.

It's people who cause hatred whether they are atheist, religious, political, or otherwise.

[LeftishBrit]

35. I do not think that this group was preaching hatred at all...

but then my interpretation of the last billboard was not that religion *causes* evil, but that it doesn't prevent it. The argument often made is that 'if there is no god, anything is permissible', i.e. people will be tempted to do horrible things to other people; and this was pointing out that religion never stopped Nazism and the various other evils of the world. Nor has atheism for that matter; but then it generally doesn't claim to.

[Meshuga]

62. The group is not advertising atrocities with these billboards

Can you explain how these billboards advertise atrocities? Please be specific.

The group is merely responding to religion in Brazil and the myth that atheist and people without religion are not as trustworthy and that they are morally inferior for not believing in God. Given the behavior from both presidential candidates in Brazil in the 2010 runoff election trying to outdo each other's faith (by throwing gays under the bus and taking hard pledges against abortion) because of pressure from religious groups, I could see why these billboards are necessary.

The group is only saying that religion does not define character which is a FACT. The Chaplin vs Hitler is a great example to show that religion does not define character. The comparison DOES NOT state that religious people are like Hitler. It just proves a point that I am sure you understand but won't admit. And religious groups (not all, of course) are the only groups that feel the need to claim and that actually claim that atheist are morally corrupt or amoral at best. So the natural response or focus in these billboards is obviously to religion (that make claims about the morality of atheists) and not other groups.

If you have a drive to claim that "atheist atrocities far outweigh anything done by any religious group" (and I would challenge such claim until it is backed up with unbiased, non-simplistic, and non-superficial figures) then that is you doing it. But don't try to pin your ways on the group you are criticizing.

[humblebum]

63. Then, they must be referring to Hitler because of his funny mustache.

Sure, that's it. How silly of me.

[Meshuga]

89. Did you even read my post?

It seems to me that you didn't. Or you may want me to think that you didn't so you won't have to properly address the points I make so you can continue to vilify a group you obviously dislike.

I'm sorry but your exaggeration and attitude feed the perception that you are the one doing what you accuse others of doing. Just saying.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

39. You are? Who mentioned the USSR first?

Oh yeah, you did.

[CJvR]

88. Soviet atheism.

Soviet atheism wasn't particulary strong. Once religion had been properly castrated and housebroken it was allowed to exist as the state's archaic pet. Stalin even brought it up out of the basement for the war. The Russian church was persecuted more for it's worldly power, something no totalitarian regime can tollerate, than for the atheistic aspect of communism.

[humblebum]

90. Yes, it was just a passing fad:

The League of Militant Atheists comprised workers, peasants, students, and members of the intelligentsia. Organizations were founded at plants, factories, kolkhozes, and educational institutions. By early 1941, the league consisted of approximately 3.5 million working people of 100 nationalities. The number of groups reached 96,000. Guided by Leninist principles of antireligious propaganda and by the party’s decisions on these principles, the league dedicated itself to ideological struggle against all forms of religion and the development of a scientific world view among working people. It disseminated propaganda on the natural sciences and atheism, offered believers individual counseling, and trained propagandists and atheist agitators. It also published scientific and popular scientific works and a number of periodicals, founded museums and organized exhibitions, and conducted scientific research in the field of atheism and criticism of religion. Working under the motto “The struggle against religion is a struggle for socialism,” the league coordinated atheist propaganda with economic, political, and cultural tasks. The league maintained extensive international ties; it belonged to the International of Proletarian Freethinkers, and then to the World Union of Freethinkers. In 1947 the league turned over its tasks of disseminating scientific-atheist propaganda to Znanie (Knowledge), a newly created all-Union society.
REFERENCES
Konovalov, B. N. “Soiuz voinstvuiushchikh bezbozhnikov.” In the collection Voprosy nauchnogo ateizma, no. 4. Moscow, 1967.
Konovalov, B. N. K massovomu ateizmu. Moscow, 1974.

[laconicsax]

91. Thanks for acknowledging that.

Nice copy-and-paste job there, by the way.

[humblebum]

92. And then, of course, the fad was resurrected.

"A new period of persecution began in the late 1950s under Nikita KhrushchevThe church had advanced its position considerably since 1941, and the government considered it to be necessary to take measures in response.
The two state organizations for overseeing religion in the country (one for the Orthodox, the other for everyone else), changed their functions between 1957-1964. Originally Stalin had created them in 1943 as liaison bodies between religious communities and the state, however, in the Khrushchev years their function was re-interpreted as dictatorial supervisors over the religious activities in the country.
New instructions were issued in 1958 attacked the position of monasteries, by placing them under high taxation, cutting their land and working to shut them down in order to weaken the church.
From 1959-1964, the persecution operated on several key levels:
1. There was a massive closure of churches <63> (reducing the number from 22,000 to 7,000 by 1965<108>. )
2. Closures of monasteries and convents as well reinforcement of the 1929 legislation to ban piligrimages
3. Closure of most of the still existing seminaries and bans on pastoral courses
4. Banning all services outside of church walls and recording the personal identities of all adults requesting church baptisms, weddings or funerals<109>. Non-fulfillment of these regulations by clergy would lead to disallowance of state registration for them (which meant they could no longer do any pastoral work or liturgy at all, without special state permission).
5. The deprivation of parental rights for teaching religion to their children, a ban on the presence of children at church services (beginning in 1961 with the Baptists and then extended to the Orthodox in 1963) and the administration of the Eucharist to children over the age of four.
6. The forced retirement, arrests and prison sentences to clergymen who criticized atheism <110> or the anti-religious campaign, who conducted Christian charity or who in made religion popular by personal example<110>.
7. It also disallowed the ringing of church bells and services in daytime in some rural settings from May to the end of October under the pretext of field work requirements<110>.
The government adopted many methods of creating situations that allowed for churches or seminaries to be legally closed (e.g. refusing to give permits for building repair, and then shutting down churches on grounds they were unsafe).
Anti-religious education and anti-religious propaganda were intensified as well as improved. Stalin’s legacy of tolerating the church after 1941 was criticized as a break with Lenin."

[laconicsax]

99. And again, it passed.

Do you have anything that isn't from 50 years ago or a totalitarian dictatorship. It would really help strengthen your case if you did.

[humblebum]

100. Um? The actions continued well into the 1980's and the groups still

exist today, as Znanie, and in China; and the philosophical roots remain today in many atheist groups.

[laconicsax]

101. Uh huh, like I said. n/t

[humblebum]

105. Like you said, what? It has never really ended. nt

[laconicsax]

106. If you say so. n/t

[humblebum]

104. deleted

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

20. ...

SOVIЭT БЯAZIL WILL COИQUЭЯ AMЭЯIKA AИD DЭSTЯOY CHЯISTIAИITY!

MWA HA HA HA HA HAAAAAAA!

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[laconicsax]

21. Scary!!!

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Taverner]

50. If logic fails, throw your bible at them and scream "COMMIE!!!!"

[Iggo]

103. STALIN!!!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

23. K&R

[Taverner]

52. Awesome. I wish we could have those here.

But unfortunately even saying something like "Atheists Exist" will make it hard to rent space, and if you do it will be vandalized by people baptized in the spirit

[Iggo]

102. Atheists Exist.

I like that.