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A society without a moral imperative of religion is what we live in now...

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Humanist_Activist Donating Member (603 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 06:12 AM
Original message
A society without a moral imperative of religion is what we live in now...
this doesn't mean it doesn't have a moral imperative, and all morals and ethics have some base to draw from. In the case of the United States, its rather easy to see for societal values, they are based on many enlightenment values, and other values that developed over the years. Indeed, much of the world draws from many of these same sources.

List the values that are a basis for our society, either specific or not, and then study where they come from. In the case of the United States, read what they wrote, and who they said inspired them.

Our basis for human rights, universal education, democracy, sexual equality, freedom of thought, freedom of religion, freedom of speech and press, etc. derive not from theology, but from philosophers who drew from many different sources, and their own experience to advocate for these values. And, even in the United States, they won over society through the centuries.

The one thing, however, is that while quite a few of these philosophers were Christian, none of them really based these arguments for any of this on their religion. Many of them were aware that they couldn't and even wrote about it.

To give a simple example, while many of the leaders of abolition were religious, and gave their arguments against slavery a religious veneer, they never really quoted the Bible(which supports slavery) and instead talked about economic problems of slaver, its sustainability, and yes, even appealed to equality and fraternity.

Other, later, civil rights activists, particularly women suffragettes, were openly critical of Christianity because of the pervasive sexism in the Bible. The same is true of many abolitionists, such as Fredrick Douglass. Indeed, most of the 19th century thinkers who advanced human rights the most had radically different ideas about Christianity than many believers today, they would be closer to the UUA, or Quakers, and many called themselves agnostic or were atheistic in their beliefs.

But any beliefs these people had about the supernatural are irrelevant, the fact of the matter is that they based their morality and ethics, firmly, in the ideas of equality, and a sense of fairness.

This is key, these are secular ethics, in that no religion can claim them as its own, and the strength and superiority of ethics not based on any religion is that they can transcend religious boundaries.

I have seen many Christians, on this board, say that Gandhi was inspired by Jesus Christ in his civil disobedience, which is rather disingenuous, he wasn't Gandhi's primary inspiration, but a rather different source was.

He wrote this about "On civil disobedience" by Henry David Thoreau:

Thoreau was a great writer, philosopher, poet, and withal a most practical man, that is, he taught nothing he was not prepared to practice in himself. He was one of the greatest and most moral men America has produced. At the time of the abolition of slavery movement, he wrote his famous essay "On the Duty of Civil Disobedience". He went to gaol for the sake of his principles and suffering humanity. His essay has, therefore, been sanctified by suffering. Moreover, it is written for all time. Its incisive logic is unanswerable.
—"For Passive Resisters" Indian Opinion October 26, 1907

An Indian was able to take inspiration from an American, crossing any cultural and religious barriers because the values exhibited were universal, and could be adapted to apply to various situations.

Again, another example, what the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. wrote:

During my student days I read Henry David Thoreau's essay On Civil Disobedience for the first time. Here, in this courageous New Englander's refusal to pay his taxes and his choice of jail rather than support a war that would spread slavery's territory into Mexico, I made my first contact with the theory of nonviolent resistance. Fascinated by the idea of refusing to cooperate with an evil system, I was so deeply moved that I reread the work several times.

I became convinced that noncooperation with evil is as much a moral obligation as is cooperation with good. No other person has been more eloquent and passionate in getting this idea across than Henry David Thoreau. As a result of his writings and personal witness, we are the heirs of a legacy of creative protest. The teachings of Thoreau came alive in our civil rights movement; indeed, they are more alive than ever before. Whether expressed in a sit-in at lunch counters, a freedom ride into Mississippi, a peaceful protest in Albany, Georgia, a bus boycott in Montgomery, Alabama, these are outgrowths of Thoreau's insistence that evil must be resisted and that no moral man can patiently adjust to injustice.

—"The Autobiography of Martin Luther King, Jr."

Of course, this wasn't the only inspiration, and, to appeal to the religious, in both cultures, both men appealed to their religions. But the values they advocated are not, in themselves religious.

This is something that I think is perhaps one of the worse things perpetuated by religious Christians is the co-opting of secular values to claim as their own, in totally unjustified ways, and even worse, they twist their own theology, and the very nature of the god they claim to worship to make it fit with the morals and ethics of the day, and at the same time they sell themselves short in ways even they don't realize.

The fact is that we, as a society, and most of us individually, are much more moral and have a much better ethical outlook than any god or prophet. This is a simple fact, and the need to have such beings as paragons of virtue is a time that should be left in the past, as a historical blip.

And I know the United States is the most religious of the western nations, its the outlier, the statistical anomaly. However, outside of the fringe right, most Americans, regardless of their religion, certainly don't have a moral or ethical outlook that is based in the religion they follow. Society would be so much worse if they did.
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
1. What we live in now is a Randian society,.
with the worst disparity since the Robber Barons between the rich and everyone else. That includes a disparity not just of wealth, but of education and basic services. The last time an effort was really made at fulfilling enlightenment values was Lyndon Johnson's administration. Our present condition is nothing to get enthusiastic about.
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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I'm not sure the Randians would agree with you
Despite the fact that the disparities are pretty much as you say, I think we're nowhere near what the Randians would regard as their ideal society. That would have virtually no taxes, virtually no government ownership or oversight of anything, privatization of virtually all services and facilities provided now by the government, particularly education, and no social safety net. As bad as things are now, this is only a shadow of what things would be like if hard-core libertarians really had their way.
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I agree it's far from a Randian "utopia" (dystopia for most of us.)
by any means. But that's the way it's tending, I think, with the tendency already strong enough to have significant effects.
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Humanist_Activist Donating Member (603 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. I see it as more likely to be similar to Margaret Atwood's dystopia in...
"A Handmaid's Tale", though perhaps not as extreme. A socially conservative, economically libertarian Christian Republic.

While the tea party is emphasizing economic conservatism over social conservatism, I don't see them abandoning it entirely. Of course, I doubt the scenario I laid out will come to pass, the tea party is apparently not interested in governing at all, and they may sabotage the Republican party in the near future by pulling it further to the right, and if that continues, then the Republican party will become increasingly fringe,and hopefully irrelevant on the national level.
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. Preachers vs. Banksters
Banksters win every time.
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Thats my opinion Donating Member (804 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
3. A solid historic analysis
All western culture, including, the French skeptical tradition, has live in the ethical air of Christian pragmatism. These thinkers saw what works, but underneath it all was a root-age that was in substance intellectually Christian. It was almost in the air they breathed.
Some realized it, and some fought it, but it was omnipresent. Nobody wrote, composed, built, thought, created universities, hospitals and schools without an assumed ethical Christian background. Go into any art gallery and you can see it on almost every wall.


The brightest were able to combine a religious ambiance with Greek thought. Thomas Aquinas saw in Aristotle the way in which human society and intellectualism was to work. It was not a question of whether one composed religious or non-religious music. It was assumed centuries before J.S Bach that Christianity lay at the soul of everything.

This obviously had its drawbacks. For one thing, it kept Europe from capitalizing on the intelligence of the East from Islam to Confucius.
It also sought to control free-thinkers, often condemning (ala Galileo) and those who would usher in the scientific age--which got born despite the church's objection.

Even some of the most vocal anti-Christians today, cut their ethical teeth in some modest Sunday School when they were tiny children.
Today there is a marked change in society, much for the good. The question remains how we maintain an ethical root-age without the ethical roots.
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Humanist_Activist Donating Member (603 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. What is this "Christian Pragmatism" and how does it differ from any other pragmatism?
I think its a given that Christianity permeated European Culture for all those years, I wouldn't call it the "soul of everything" that sounds silly, but it was dominant. However, your post is a classic example of taking something that is either Universal in all humans(pragmatism) and/or taking the thinking of humans(Greek philosophers) and then claiming both as part of your religious tradition.

What's really interesting is that this process started almost as soon as Christianity itself was established, and only accelerated since.

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Thats my opinion Donating Member (804 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Of course
These things are all interwoven, and nobody has exclusive claim. The nature of Process Theology is assuming the interrelation of all processes, thoughts and perspectives which build on each other. "Soul of everything" is probably an overstatement. The historic fact that it was not only in the air, but intellectually was the air, has long been assumed by historians.

Both pragmatism and Greek thought are indeed part of our religious tradition. Christians not only assumed the validity of these perspectives, but also borrowed heavily from them. This not an exclusive claim, just a historic observation.

Religion, after all did not come down from the sky, but up from the lives of people. When I was in the parish we said after every Bible reading not "This is the word of God," but "This is the testimony of God's people."
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Humanist_Activist Donating Member (603 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Why worship a god based on the flawed perceptions of people that have been dead 2000 plus years?
Edited on Sat Aug-06-11 01:53 PM by Humanist_Activist
Also, it seems likely that many Christians adopted thinking from the Greeks and others because it was lacking in their Bible and other religious texts. It became part of religious tradition only after that.

But again, you can't then say that the "core" of Christianity is any of these philosophies and modes of thought. Enlightenment philosophers, when they "rediscovered" the ancient thoughts and texts of the Greeks and others, read them without Christianity's co-option being evident. And, of course, they added their own takes, expanded and improved upon what they read,and we continue to do so to this day. Something you cannot do with the Bible.
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Thats my opinion Donating Member (804 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Of course you can
The Bible is the product of evolutionary thinking. That is why Jesus said, "You have heard it said of old (existing Scriptures). but I say to you...." We are not stuck with thinking from a moonlight age when we have found greater sources of light. So we continue to read the Bible in terms of what we are discovering about the world, ourselves and what is real.
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Humanist_Activist Donating Member (603 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. When was the last time the Bible was revised and amended?
And no I'm not talking about yet another translation or interpretation of the old text, but actually revised to, I don't know, make Genesis able to better reflect reality? Or to get rid of the pro-slavery slant, or to edit out the other atrocities of your god. The only one I can think of is the Jefferson Bible, but even that was never widely adopted.

Even better, why keep it around as a guidebook at all? You know, unless it can be edited to better reflect the values of the modern world, its useless, and generally we only keep around outdated textbooks for posterity's sake, but use current ones in day to day usage.
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. So what do you think the church should use instead?
Edited on Sat Aug-06-11 04:38 PM by okasha
You know, if Christians did revise the Bible, the complaints about its being outdated would simply be replaced with complaints that they were trying to cover up its ugly past. Better to keep the warts and all version while acknowlegeing that parts of the past were indeed ugly and no longer serve as a guide to belief or behavior.

Besides, except in groups that rely solely on the Bible--loosely, the fundamentalists--the revisions are made elsewhere. Anglicanism, for instance, relies on what it calls the "three-legged stool" of scripture, reason and tradition. Other liberal denominations follow largely the same formula, though they may express it differently. Process Theology certainly falls under this category, as does Liberation Theology.

What good do you think editing Genesis "to reflect reality" would do? The literalists wouldn't use such a Bible, and the non-literalists already know the story is symbolic and metaphorical.
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Humanist_Activist Donating Member (603 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Well, apparently you don't use it all that much...
Edited on Sat Aug-06-11 04:57 PM by Humanist_Activist
you all but admitted it, your churches already discarded the majority of the Bible, the question now is, is it just tradition that keeps you worshiping Yahweh and Jesus?

ON EDIT: And stop with the metaphorical nonsense, the creation stories in Genesis is just a retelling of older Semitic creation myths, that makes them myths as well.
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I don't use it at all. I'm a pagan.
Though I'm perfectly comfortable seeing Mary and Jesus as avatars of Goddess an God, the Bible doesn't play any part in Native American or Celtic pagan tradition, the two in which I practice.

Of course, all creation stories are myths. Myths are metaphorical stories. Is this news to you? If so, why?
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Humanist_Activist Donating Member (603 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Hope you mean Mary Magdalene, because to many pagans, the God is the Goddess' consort...
Edited on Sat Aug-06-11 05:24 PM by Humanist_Activist
that would make things unnecessarily freaky.

Why not pair up Yahweh with his original consort, Asherah? It would make more sense, Jesus is more a demigod or prophet anyways.
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. The Goddess is generally seen as tripartite:
maiden, mother and wisewoman (aka crone.) Either figure can fulfill all three aspects.

Suggest you look up Christ Sophia. You'll probably find that idea really uncomfortable.
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Humanist_Activist Donating Member (603 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Didn't know you specific theology...
Pagan is a rather catch-all term, far too general and can cover everything from Re-constructionists(Hellenic, Kemetic, etc.) to certain types of Shamanistic religions(Druidism, etc.) and Wiccans, of course.
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Toltec Logic Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-11 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Insidious Malefaction...
Even Goldwater recognized the very real threat of what
we are seeing manifest today; reason, logic, fairness,
equality or moral imperative have very little to do with
the tactics of dog whistle politics and the polyamorous
marriage of religion, politics and transnational corporations
that some might claim to be a match made in heaven. Where low
information voters are fed a steady diet of untruths and half
baked lies unchallenged on a continual bases by Fox GOPTV and
the corporate media playing to the Armey of Dick Tea Party
in an effort to rewrite history, the voice of reason is seldom
if ever heard. But to the contrary we are seeing a war on
education and intellectualism - being framed as a disease set
for eradication. Should we remember the Bush years and how
this ginned up hate against liberalism was fueled by a so called
Moral Majority and Christian Coalition in the hands of Karl
Rove, let alone the hanging chads and controversy over clearly
red shifting voting machines. And now a corrupted Supreme Court
free to undo hard won protections against the robber barons
hell bent on destroying the New Deal along with what is left
of the middle class.
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