The more liberal churches are killing themselves with their lack of passionate services

[ButterflyBlood]

Something that came to me recently and I'm surprised I didn't realize earlier. There's a big reason why evangelical churches keep growing and the more liberal mainline ones lose members and have stereotypically far older congregations, despite society paradoxically becoming more liberal on cultural issues. There are plenty of young Christians with liberal values who don't want to go to church just because they find it BORING. So they'll either not go, or will go to evangelical churches instead and ignore the politics. I noticed something when I got a flyer in the mail from a "modern" church in my area promoting some series on sermons about how to get out of debt and offering to pay the rent one month of one random first timer to their next couple services. I checked out their website and Facebook, and they are actually pretty conservative if you read everything and the "Statement of Belief" though they hide it well which shouldn't be a surprise considering that they are marketing themselves to young uptowners and instead focus on casual dress and their rock band...but if you check out their Facebook the people commenting weren't anywhere near as conservative from a glance at their pages. Many seemed like marriage equality supporters and I saw a few listing Barack Obama under people they liked or personal heroes. Not surprising from a youthful uptown crowd, even one of churchgoers, but why go to a place like this? It's because the mainline churches with their organs, robed choirs and pews just BORE them. I mean go check out a rock concert or youthful bar sometime. We don't want to just stand, sit, kneel, we want to be at least shaking or around or throwing our hands in the air. I mean I've actually said I've worshiped in a mosh pit before at a few Christian hardcore shows. There's plenty of young people who believe in something bigger than them but don't want to be condemned or bored, so they just quit going to church altogether. That's exactly what I was for six years in fact. I think the best evidence for this is the Catholic Church is shedding the most members of all (though replacing them through immigration unlike the more established ones) since it lacks either a tolerant environment or passionate worship style.

I now thankfully have found a church that is both liberal-leaning and charismatic, full of people hand raising and jumping, and the congregation is FAR younger than any typical church with about 80% under 40, and quite visibly also more of the "hipster" crowd than the "well behaved youth" crowd you see in something like Campus Crusade for Christ. It's quite amazing the mainline churches don't understand their future. At least the ELCA Lutherans seem to have caught on somewhat since they're having contemporary-style services more often (though still a bit reserved from what I've seen).

[Lunabelle]

1. The United Church of Christ is very liberal

Our local church even lets their venue be used for pagan rituals and sectarian events.

[ButterflyBlood]

10. I'm aware. But do they have dull ritual-driven services?

I mean if they have any alternatives to that that's great. Maybe I should check out some local UCC.

[Lunabelle]

24. Check them out.

Each church is different. It depends on the Pastor.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

2. Why would people need to jump around and wave their hands in the air

to have a meaningful experience in church? That kind of carrying on always struck me as both phony and silly. Caveat: I'm an agnostic and I don't get much out of any kind of church service -- but the so-called "traditional" ones at least have good music most of the time. Face it, Christian "pop" is pretty awful. Do young people have such short attention spans, and are they so easily bored, that they have to have a lot of racket and hollering and loud music? If you want to be entertained by a rock concert, go to a real rock concert; the music will be better.

What's wrong with contemplation? - which seems to me to be more the point of the whole service. It's not intended to be an entertainment experience, is it?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

5. What the Velveteen Ocelot said

I attended a couple of rock music services when I was in high school and college, and they always seemed condescending, as if to say, "You young people are too stupid to handle a real service, so instead of teaching you, we'll just go down to your level and hold a rock concert and call it church."

As a 23-year-old graduate student, I first tried out the Lutheran chaplaincy on campus. They were doing a lively folk mass with three guitars and a lot of hand clapping. I asked if they did this every Sunday, and they did. I never went back.

The following Sunday, I tried out the Episcopal chaplaincy. There was an underlying sense of excitement there, too, but it didn't have to be artificially boosted by drums and guitars, just unaccompanied voices singing Eastern Orthodox-style chants in four-part harmony. (Eastern Orthodox music was designed to be sung by peasants, and the harmonies are really easy to catch on to, even if you're not a trained musician.) The priest gave a sermon that we were encouraged to respond to. We had Communion standing in a circle around the altar and passing the bread and wine to one another.

This is not to say that church services can't be boring. My least favorite type of service is the so-called "hymn sandwich": hymn, reading, hymn, reading, sermon, hymn, reading, hymn. That's very hard to do well. Liturgical services (ones with a predetermined set of prayers, responses, etc.) can be boring, too, if the clergy are not very inspiring.

But a well-done liturgical service, where the clergy enter into the spirit of the ancient words and routines and do them well, along with high-quality music--there's nothing like it. I'm not talking about being dramatic or declaiming the words like a Shakespearean actor--that's the priest showing off. I'm talking about understanding the words and conveying them to the congregation and drawing the congregation into the experience. Intense emotion can be quiet as well as exuberant.

I attend a liturgical church, and we have quite a lot of younger people. In fact, most of our new members are young couples in their twenties and thirties.

By the way, there ARE charismatic Catholics (and Episcopalians) who do all the arm-waving and shouting "Praise the Lord." I attended a charismatic Episcopal service once, and the priest there eventually got in trouble with the bishop because he acted as if the charismatic members of his congregation were "the elect," while the ones who objected to his treating the charismatics as some sort of elite were "blaspheming against the Holy Spirit."

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

9. What you said.

:hi: Seems to me that some people expect to be entertained wherever they go. I never quite understood the entertainment value of bad but enthusiastic singing accompanied by 1-4-5 chords on amplified guitars, but I guess if it's loud enough it's all good.

:eyes:

[Odin2005]

21. I'm not religious, but if I were I would like services with lots of ritual and ornimentation.

I went to a wedding in a Orthodox church once and it was a really interesting experience.

[ButterflyBlood]

11. There's more to Christian music than what you're thinking of

For example this is a Christian band: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFFHmV71AOo
So is this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wk2OLYK0yx4
Would you have ever guessed without the lyrics that this is a praise and worship song? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxkRXEijCxo

[Lydia Leftcoast]

12. No, which is a problem

Are you going to a rock concert or worshiping?

Would you ever consider going to a service that DIDN'T have contemporary Christian music? A service that was completely spoken, for example, like a Centering Prayer service?

[ButterflyBlood]

17. How about doing both?

There's a subtle bit in the first video you won't get if you're not familiar with the band, but the studio version contains a lyric "This is the river of life/and it will flow from a place of worship". In the video it sounds like he's saying "it will flow from THIS place of worship". So to them this is definitely a worship event, and I'm sure many in the audience. And those in the audience who aren't believers, well at least they're still having a good time.

For the second question, probably only if it was a family event. I was bored to death by Catholic masses up until I was about 15 when my mom quit on insisting I go to them. At that point she went to more contemporary Lutheran services more often anyway, and I went sometimes, but still found them kind of boring because they still were mostly attended by middle-aged folks or senior citizens who spent most of the time seated or standing still. Now that I live in Minneapolis (by the way hi neighbor! Where you at? I'm in Whittier.) there are churches that aren't like that, and I actually started going again, after only going to church if I was with family for six years prior.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

13. I listened. I thought they were awful.

Just another loud heavy metal band with lyrics you can't make out anyway. If that's a "praise and worship" song, how would you even know? Is that music intended for the glory of God or for the entertainment of an audience? I am not religious, but if I were I would want my expression of faith to be beautiful. That wasn't.

[ButterflyBlood]

16. I know some die-hard atheists who listen to those bands

especially mewithoutYou, one of the most influential bands of the style in the last decade. I don't think many atheists listen to classic hymns or the stuff on Christian radio. But they'll listen to this because if you like that music, it sounds good. Hell I know even know an atheist who put out a record by such a band on his label.

As for expression of my faith to be beautiful...to me that is. I love that music. I don't like gospel music or classic hymns.

By the way I found a somewhat humorous comment on the first video that kind of summarizes what I'm talking about:

I wish I could see them live.... and people who cares if they are singing all about God im sure your all christian, would you not rather listen to this then go to church?

[darkstar3]

18. mewithoutYou is NOT one of the most influential bands of the style in the last decade,

speaking as a fan of all things metal and hard rock. Unless you're their agent, I just see no reason to claim that...

[ButterflyBlood]

25. mewithoutYou is not metal or hard rock. And I don't listen to either.

I am referring to post-hardcore, their actual genre. Go listen to La Dispute, who are huge now. They are often described as "a secular mewithoutYou", which is quite notable to have that inversed instead of a band being "the Christian ______".

One of my co-workers who is not a Christian considers mewithoutYou his favorite band.

[darkstar3]

26. "post-hardcore" is a recently categorized sub-genre of hard rock.

And they still suck.

[sudopod]

27. Metalocalypse - Christian Rock

http://video.adultswim.com/metalocalypse/christian-rock.html

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

19. It wouldn't matter if I were a believer or not.

I wouldn't listen to them for any reason no matter what they were singing about. They certainly would not enhance my religious experience, or encourage me to keep attending whatever church they were performing at (they would more likely drive me right out the door, screaming). Like I said before, the point of a spiritual experience is not entertainment or the avoidance of boredom.

Although I am an agnostic, I love classical music written for the church; in fact, I belong to two choirs that specialize in church music. It is incredibly beautiful. And I can even understand the words.

But... whatever floats your boat, I guess.

[ButterflyBlood]

22. Maybe I'm just conditioned or whatever, but I don't have much trouble understanding the words

There are plenty of bands for whom the lyrics are entirely indecipherable (one example is Ampere <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGvNDdi8yh4>, for whom I think it's a bit of a shame because their lyrics are very intelligently written and quite poetic.), but For Today is not one of those bands.

One thing I always found amusing though was when you have really political bands and they'll be like "This song is about universal health care!" before starting screaming uncontrollably. This happened a lot during the Bush Admin when everyone was doing anti-war songs.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

23. For me, it isn't so much that the words are unintelligble -

it's that the music sucks.

[darkstar3]

14. To quote Hank Hill,

"you're not makin' rock music better, you're makin' Christianity worse!"

[Kerrytravelers]

3. Perhaps, or maybe there is another reason.

Perhaps that younger people who are more liberal aren't going to church because they don't believe in religion the way their parents and grandparents did in the past.

http://www.alternet.org/rights/139788/40_million_nonbelievers_in_america_the_secret_is_almost_out/

A recent Newsweek cover—in a bid to (finally) match the celebrated 1966 “Is God Dead?” cover of Time—read, in the shape of a cross: “The Decline and Fall of Christian America.” Editor Jon Meacham’s story highlights Newsweek’s latest poll results showing that 10% fewer Americans identify as Christian today than twenty years ago. But more importantly, and mentioned only in passing, is the growth among atheists and secularists of all stripes.

According to the latest American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS) of more than 54,000 adults, between 2001 and 2008 the number willing to identify themselves as atheist and agnostic has gone from under 2 million to 3.6 million. Small numbers compared to the whole, of course, but most notably it’s a rise of 85% of those willing to describe themselves as living without God during the years of our most overtly religious presidency!

>snip<

Consider: If these numbers are correct, nonbelievers amount to more than the highest estimates of African Americans or gays. Secularists are one of America’s largest minorities. It is no longer possible to proclaim, as the Gallup Poll announced fifty years ago: “Nearly all Americans believe in God.” That is today’s most significant change.

[bluestateguy]

4. That is the irony

The liberal mainline churches might have the more traditional Christian services, while the evangelical fundamentalists are likely to spice things up a great deal more.

[elocs]

6. I understand what you are saying. There are people who are looking for an emotional experience

from their church. Those who belittle religion and sneer at it don't understand this and they never will.

It's like those who enjoy classical music who just cannot understand why anyone would go to a loud and wild heavy metal concert.

Yes, if liberal churches want to grow then they had better learn how to make a connection with the people, particularly the young people, who are looking for a faith based experience and not a faith based and boring lecture no matter how politically correct it may be.

By the way: Jesus loves paragraph breaks. It's written somewhere in the New Testament, probably in code.

[provis99]

7. I go to a fundamentalist church with a boring, mainstream service.

And I'm a liberal atheist. Who the heck knows why people go or don't go to certain churches? I just go because I like to dress up on Sunday and meet the local neighbors.:shrug:

[CelticThunder]

8. I am so glad I'm an unbeliever. I don't need any church to entertain me.

[kwassa]

15. Different people like different worship experiences, regardless of age.

Worship can be approached from many different ways, but I don't think that any one of them breaks down along lines of age. You favor a more emotional approach, other people a more intellectual approach. I've been in both types of churches.

I think what may eventually kill off mainline churches is that fewer and fewer of the congregants literally believe the theology, which is the main organizing principle of the church. As beliefs get more abstract and fuzzier, there is less to hold a particular believer to a particular denomination or specific church.

[rrneck]

20. There are just too many other ways

to get a group emotional experience in modern culture. Not a few of which will help get you laid.

The greatest threat to religion isn't a lack of passion, it's sports and concerts.