A few Catholics still insist Galileo was wrong

[TomCADem]

Source: LA Times

A few conservative Roman Catholics are pointing to a dozen Bible verses and the church's original teachings as proof that Earth is the center of the universe, the view that was at the heart of the church's clash with Galileo Galilei four centuries ago.

The relatively obscure movement has gained a following among those who find comfort in knowing there are still staunch defenders of early church doctrine.

"This subject is, as far as I can see, an embarrassment to the modern church because the world more or less looks upon geocentrism, or someone who believes it, in the same boat as the flat Earth," said James Phillips of Cicero, Ill.

* * *
"Heliocentrism becomes dangerous if it is being propped up as the true system when, in fact, it is a false system," said Robert Sungenis, leader of a budding movement to get scientists to reconsider. "False information leads to false ideas, and false ideas lead to illicit and immoral actions — thus the state of the world today.… Prior to Galileo, the church was in full command of the world, and governments and academia were subservient to her."


Read more: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-adv-galileo-wrong-20110828,0,3264179.story

---

I guess the momentum of Perry and Bachmann is not a fluke. It is fashionable to challenge science in the current corporate media environment where there are no facts, just a he said, she said false equivalency that masquarades as objective journalism. Why stop at climate change and evolution?

Lets reconsider the discreditted idea that the earth is the center of the universe!

Perhaps we should blame scientists for letting the flat earth types for setting the narrative? Or, should we reevaluate the corporate media we rely on, which has created an environment where inconvenient truths are ignored or challenged as a matter of political opinion.

[Taverner]

1. The Earth is Flat. Pi is wrong. Miracles happen. Reason is irrelevant.

These are the teachings of Christianity.

Hear it roar.

[Ken Burch]

11. Of course Miracles happen.

They were riding high in the charts for years

[Taverner]

30. Now THOSE are some Miracles I can believe in!!!!

If ever a "miracle" existed, it was Motown.

[No Elephants]

56. Guess what Smokey Robinson of the Miracles believes in?

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/music/interviews/2004/smokeyrobinson-0604.html

[No Elephants]

55. Arcane Trivia Dept. Smokey's son portrayed the Moon in one of those Jimmy Dean

breakfast commercials. (The eclipse of "the sun" commercial where "the moon" said, "I'm just not feeling it."

[Old Time Pagan]

23. Actually miracles do happen

of course that's only because we don't understand the mechanisms behind them.

Try wrapping your mind around quantum mechanics and the intelligent energy matrix we are part of and you discover that we can all manifest "miracles." Naturally outfits like the Catholic Church have spent millennia making sure we aren't aware of our ability to do that sort of thing cause it's pretty tough to keep your hold on people when they discover their own power.

[Taverner]

29. Quantum Mechanics =/= Miracles

Yes, some crazy shit can happen.

But that hardly qualifies as a "miracle."

Unless your definition of miracle is loose and wide.

[liberation]

32. A lack of knowledge a miracle makes not, it simply means we do not know.

"Try wrapping your mind around quantum mechanics and the intelligent energy matrix..."

Uh? So have you managed to wrap your head around any of those things and manifest a miracle? I must say that even after taking quatum mechanics in college, I still can't seem to manage to walk on water...

[Taverner]

35. The "Goddidit!" Fallacy - Exactly!

[Old Time Pagan]

45. Hey you guys obviously know way more about this than I do

Thanks for setting me straight.

[HubertHeaver]

48. Hint: You freeze it first. Of course, Southern California,

South Texas or South Florida that may not help.

[No Elephants]

54. "The Earth is flat" was a teaching of the Catholic Church.

As for pi, I believe the notion is not that pi is wrong, but that two times pi is more important than pi.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43581192/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/mathematicians-want-say-goodbye-pi/#.Tlt8rahNp5g

Don't know who teaches that reason is irrelevant.

[struggle4progress]

66. No, the Catholic Church never taught the earth was flat

[Pab Sungenis]

2. Please don't bring up my Crazy Uncle Bob.

The rest of us in the family have been trying to remove the stain he's placed on our name for ages now.

[Book Lover]

5. I thought of you immediately when I first read the piece!! (nm)

[Pab Sungenis]

8. I'm in a desperate fame race with him on Google.

I do not want him to be the person that history remembers when they hear my last name.

[TomCADem]

6. You Are Kidding!

The person quoted is related? If so, I don't know what to say. Each family has its eccentrics?

[Pab Sungenis]

7. Not kidding at all.

His father is my paternal grandfather. All of the family gatherings the last couple of years have gotten around to Bobby's crazy rantings.

Yeah, I know that technically he's a cousin, but we're Italian, so every older cousin is an Uncle or an Aunt to us.

[Ken Burch]

12. And the stain under his chair as well?

:eyes:

[No Elephants]

57. I hope you win the race.

[Book Lover]

3. These people are actually heretics

and part of a movement that rejects Vatican II's reforms. They truly have nothing to do with the hierarchy. And didn't you read the whole piece? The Protestant creationist rejects their claims, too!

[Ken Burch]

Do they have all of Mel Gibson's flicks on dvd?

(scratch that...they probably still use Betamax).

[ShockediSay]

4. A lot more think that the pope is God and can't be wrong. n/t

[Kennah]

13. The Pope isn't God? Is Dog now God?

[Ken Burch]

15. For some people, yes....

[Kennah]

47. Dog bless you! You've restored my faith in Dog!

[Kerrytravelers]

9. I honestly think my blood pressure would go down if I just turned off all news sources.

I need to live in a shack out in the middle of nowhere, just me and my happy thoughts. I can create my own reality. These people are seriously going to give me a heart attack. My brain may very well just explode some day. I'll be sitting here one day at my computer and then *poof* my head will just explode.

[Pab Sungenis]

10. Like I said

try being related to one. And FSM bless the media for making sure the craziest of them have the biggest megaphones.

[Kerrytravelers]

19. We have some pretty loony rw fundie fruitcakes in our family, too.

Well, I have to give Mr. kt all the credit there. He is the only sane member of his whole kooky clan.

At least his hasn't started their own movement yet. Although we do have a sister-in-law working on a quiver.

My condolences. Dealing with this nonsense must make you just absolutely crazy.

[saras]

14. I'll check them out after the first successful moon landing based on geocentric theory.

That's the barrier they have to jump before they get to be taken seriously.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bette Noir]

17. The difference nowadays is that the "mainstream" media search out these crackpots

and gives them a platform. There are still people who believe that, if they see something on TV, it must be legit.

[dimbear]

18. Geocentrism causes no fatal casualties. The theory that mental illness is caused by demons

destroys lives every year. Fielder's choice.

[4saken]

34. Geocentrism may supplement reasoning that causes harm.

It shows a very strong desire to fulfill an utterly egocentric mentality, to the point where reality becomes secondary. Once accepted that(now strengthened) mentality may lead to their understanding of other parts of the world that are very wrong. Tho I would agree with you that the concept of "demons", especially today, is informing human's actions in far worse ways.

[No Elephants]

58. Isn't that why God made leeches?

[rurallib]

20. OMG If ever an issue was tailor made for the RW fundy Pres. candidates!!!

I would so love to hear Bret Baier intone:
"Let's have a show of hands. Who here sides with the Catholic Church of (whenever) that the sun does, indeed, circle the Earth and Galileo was blasphemous?"
2 .......3 ........ 5 ..........6 ......... all hands go up!

[cloudbase]

21. Y'all remember, now-

It's more important to teach the controversy.

These people make Michelle Bachmann appear sane.

[fasttense]

61. Yes, but appearances can be deceiving now can't they? n/t

[progressoid]

22. "I don't want to live on this planet anymore"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35TbGjt-weA

[Ikonoklast]

24. He's a Sedevacantist and heretic to the doctrine of the RCC.

Might as well quote Bin Laden on the Quran.

[Kingofalldems]

25. I wonder what Buchanan and Donahue think....

[1StrongBlackMan]

26. Maybe my question is simplistic, but ...

If the universe is infinite, then why couldn't any single point picked be determined as the center?

[coalition_unwilling]

37. The universe is not 'infinite,' as evidenced by the fact that it is

still expanding from the Big Bang. Not to engage in abstruse philosophy, but if the universe were infinite, it would not be expanding. Q.E.D.

[1StrongBlackMan]

41. I guess the begging question is ...

If the universe is not infinite, what are the particles in it, expanding into?

[coalition_unwilling]

50. Good question. I'm not an expert nor even a talented amateur, so

wbat I say here should be taken with many grains of salt. As I understand it from my "Physics for English Majors" classes (non-calculus), though, what is expanding is the space-time continuum itself, first postulated by Einstein and since verified by experiment and observation. Imagine one of those conical paper coffee filters that comes out of the box quasi-two-dimensional. When one applies the slightest pressure to either side of the filter, the cone 'grows' or 'expands' into 3 dimensions. In similar fashion, imagine that the filter represents the sum of matter and anti-matter (a finite quantity). What is expanding is the warp and woof of that filter as it expands into a conical shape, but matter and anti-matter remain constant within it. (There's a reason I majored in English :)

[No Elephants]

52. Is whatever the universe is expanding into (space?) infinite?

[Odin2005]

64. The universe is infinite AND expanding.

It is not expanding into anything because it is space itself that is exanding.

[dimbear]

38. That's not a simplistic question at all. You could pick the earth as the center,

but then the mathematics behind astronomical calculations would become bizarre and arbitrary. (It's been tried, see epicycles.) If you pick the sun as the center of the solar system, calculations are far simpler. Newton's laws get to hold.

As far as being the center of the Milky Way galaxy, scale up from there.

As to whether the universe is infinite, purely semantic question. If by infinite you mean it has no boundaries, you are correct.

[struggle4progress]

65. There's really more than one question there, and there's really more than one answer.

From the point-of-view of relativity, there's no absolute way to mark space, so we are certainly free to call where we are "the center" -- that makes some sense to us, since we see everything from here

But there's nothing that makes our location (or any other location) special. In particular, some phenomena might look "simpler" if viewed from other locations: for example, the motion of the planets in our solar system is rather complicated, viewed from earth, and would be much simpler to describe if viewed from the sun

One could develop a physics in which the earth was immovably at the center of the universe, with the sun and all the further-away star spinning around wildly to orbit the earth once a day, and (say) the other planets of our solar system orbiting the sun. The laws of physics would then vary in complicated ways: the gravitational law between the sun and the earth would be different than the gravitational law between the sun and the other planets, for example, and another gravitational law would be required to explain the motion of the moon

But the calculations are difficult enough, without introducing additional conceptual difficulties. For example, if one can have a theory with only one law of gravitation -- affecting the sun, moon, planet, and stars all in the same way -- why would one choose a theory which required multiple laws of gravitation?

[Weird Liberal Head]

27. This confirms it:

The far-right IS dragging us back to the Medieval times, the Dark Ages.

[No Elephants]

60. The good ole days, when universal health care meant leeches for everyone and

no minimum wage or child labor or universal education laws existed. When serfs knew their place. Makes me weep with nostalgia.

[4saken]

28. These guys can be great fun... but in mass, a terrifying demonstration of ignorance.

Take for example this geocentrist named Redsky trying to argue for his position through this Youtube video titled "Geocentric Proof - An Introduction from Redsky". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quUpQLtKEB8

And here is AndromedasWake's video series addressing Redsky.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0X1isrPVtlo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNTwNhzvPO4


I'm still not sure which I find more entertaining, these guys or the Flat Earth Society. I guess the geocentrists since they are so quick to make appeals to mythology.

On a similar note, this Youtuber named Gorilla119 is a real nut. He combines Nephilim, Nibiru, Reptilians and Freemasons to form a concoction of utter insanity. Worse than a geocentrist and a flat earther combined.
Here's his video titled "How to recognise Reptilians and Freemasons".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqf0N0Z2nps

[TeamsterDem]

31. Does this surprise anyone? They don't believe in science, economics, mathematics, etc. nt

[bvar22]

33. A few Democrats still insist that "Free Trade" is GOOD for America's Workers.

Go Figure!


You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.

Solidarity!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Lucky Luciano]

36. Wow. That's some pretty burning stupid right there. nt

[lunasun]

39. and exorcisms are real!!! eeegads what a mixed up world some live in.....

[struggle4progress]

40. Like many other people, Sungenis simply wants attention. The creationist gang had

already snagged "Jesus lived with dinosaurs!" as the basic Christian message, and Westboro Baptist was already pushing "God hates everybody!" as the good news of the gospel

So Sungenis is carving out a different niche: "If you don't think the universe revolves around the earth, you'll probably do bad things and spend eternity"

This gets him in the headlines sometimes, reinforcing his actual view: the universe revolves around Sungenis

[No Elephants]

62. This stuff is ridiculous enough as it is. Hyperbole is unnecessary..

Even Creationists never said "Jesus lived with dinosaurs!" is the basic Christian message; and even the Westboro Baptists never said "God hates everybody (or claimed that "God hates fags" is the good news of the Gospel), nor does Sungenis say a belief in helioentrism will land you in hell.

[struggle4progress]

63. Sungenis does, in fact, claim that believing in heliocentrism can send you walking the path

to damnation: "False information leads to false ideas, and false ideas lead to illicit and immoral actions" -- that is, it is his stance that once you accept such "false" ideas, your thoughts will necessarily be morally disordered, and evil acts will follow

Westboro Baptist may not precisely claim "God hates everybody" -- but that is still an accurate summary of the message they actually send, as they roam the country, seeking media attention by rejoicing loudly at funerals and disasters

I apologize for misrepresenting "creationist" views: there are actually many different people who accept some variant of "creationism" -- ranging from Biblical literalists who insist that the earth is about 6000 years old, to people who have no problem whatsoever with modern evolutionary theory and modern cosmology. But in common usage in the US today, "creationist" almost always refers to the views of biblical literalists; and some such "creationists" do advance (as an article of "faith") that humans and dinosaurs were on earth at the same time

New museum says dinosaurs were on Noah's Ark
By Andrea Hopkins
PETERSBURG, Ky
Sat May 26, 2007 2:51pm EDT
http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/05/26/us-usa-museum-idUSN2621240720070526

[Solly Mack]

42. Alrighty then.

[hopiakuta]

43. I am a devout ignostic, amongst billions of theists; is that a miracle?

I am a devout ignostic, amongst billions of theists; is that a miracle?

Is science a miracle?

Moist conundra? Bang a conundrum loudly.

[hopiakuta]

44. I am a devout ignostic, amongst billions of theists; is that a miracle?

I am a devout ignostic, amongst billions of theists; is that a miracle?

Is science a miracle?

Moist conundra? Bang a conundrum loudly.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. Hey I will go a step further... heliocentrism

is wrong... we are the third world going around a yellow star, going around the core of a galaxy, going around the local group... and so on and so forth...

But these people are getting more noisy since fundie thought is comfortable and familiar and it is rising with all the major religions. It is like an infection

[dogfacedboy]

49. They are all un-evolved monkeys. Evolution doesn't work on those who don't believe in it.

[No Elephants]

51. The heliocentric theory pre-dated Galileo by a over a milleniium.

The ancient Greeks plagiarized it from the ancient Egyptians, who had built on Indian theories, as with so many things for which the Greeks got credit after they occupied Egypt.

[struggle4progress]

68. Aristarchos of Samos gave a heliocentric model nearly two millennia before Copernicus

but it involved rather incorrect distance estimates

I know of no reason to think Aristarchos was plagiarizing from the ancient Egyptians, who probably lacked adequate geometrical ideas and formulae to investigate such matters carefully

[sofa king]

53. Maybe one of them will complete the Kepler model.

In yet another fine but tragic example of a great mind changing the world with early work and then barking up the wrong tree for the rest of a career, Kepler showed the underlying math behind planetary orbits, then spent the rest of his life trying to disprove himself by creating a heliocentric model of the solar system based upon the relations between polygons, or something. He still managed to better describe planetary motion at the same time.

That's a little like accurately reading the number off the tail of a passing jet, and concluding that you've seen a bird with a tattoo.

[struggle4progress]

59. You've got the history upside-down

Earlier in his career, Kepler tried an extraordinary number of ideas to explain the actual sizes of circular Copernican planetary orbits, including inscribed and circumscribed spheres on regular polyhedra. The results did not meet his standard, which was to better predict the observations. Eventually, in his efforts, he abandoned circular orbits and tried elliptical ones, finding his three orbital laws as a result. He used these for improved calculation:

... the Rudolphine Tables were finally published in 1627 at Ulm ... Instead of providing a sequence of planetary positions for specified days (which Kepler did in his Ephemerides), the Rudolphine Tables were set up to allow calculations of planetary positions for any time in the past or future. The finding of the longitude of a given planet at a given time was based on Kepler's equation and he exploited logarithms for this tabulation. The precise geocentric positions had to be worked out from combining the heliocentric positions of the planets and the earth that were calculated separately. Logarithmic tabulations were used again to facilitate calculation. Thus, although Brahe wished the Tables to be based on his own system, it is clear from the way Kepler set up his tabulations that they were based on Kepler's own heliocentric system with elliptical planetary orbits ... http://www.hps.cam.ac.uk/starry/keplertables.html

It is true that Kepler (d. 1630) had many ideas which would today be regarded as dead-ends, and that some of these he continued to pursue until the end of his career, but he not a crazy ideologue: he was dedicated to accurate prediction from accurate data

[rug]

67. The Vatican Observatory disagrees.

"I have no idea who these people are," said Brother Guy Consolmagno, curator of meteorites and spokesman for the Vatican Observatory. "Are they sincere, or is this a clever bit of theater?"

Besides, the Society of St. Pius X is a rightwing organization that has been in schism with the Catholic Church since 1988. Their other claim to fame is harboring holocaust deniers.