Explain Something To Me

[Boojatta]

Some people are born in the wrong place. They are born into the chosen gender (chosen to be cannon fodder). If their parents had been born in Europe before Cromwell, then their parents would have been kept out of England. They would have been in continental Europe, apart from the rest of the population, segregated in the places that were called "ghettos" before other meanings for the English-language word "ghetto" were adopted.

Yes, the time is now. Merely because they are born in Israel, are male, and have Jewish parents, they are required by law to put their lives and limbs at risk when they reach the age 18. Remember, we oppose discrimination based on age. If a woman is dismissed from employment after 25 years of loyal service purely she has reached the chronological age 50, then we don't call this justice. If the Nobel prize is awarded for a work of literature and it is discovered that the author is still 17 years old, and the prize is revoked based purely on the age of the author, then we do not call this justice. If Walmart advertises "Jobs Available. We Do Not Hire People Over the Age of Thirty, Because They Cannot Be Trusted", then we don't call this justice.

What are those young Israeli men defending? There are more Jewish people in the USA than in Israel. Israel is a tiny piece of land, and the loud words of loudmouthed hypocrites who talk about "holy land" to the contrary notwithstanding, life is sacred, but no particular parcel of land is sacred. Nor is a meteorite that landed somewhere in the Middle East and now resides in Mecca something that merits the label "sacred."

The obvious solution is to give young Israeli men an option. According to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, there were Jewish people here in North America before the Europeans arrived. Why can't Washington accept this and work out a deal? People are being used as cannon fodder merely because of where they were born, what gender they were born, their age, and the ethnic identity of their parents. Let them legally seek employment in Utah.

The conflict in the Middle East would die with a whimper, rather than a bang. Apocalypse not now. Let's decide what to do and what to say. Let's not pretend that we are actors who will lose our jobs unless we act out the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. Let's have peace, an enduring peace. Why not?

Will the Tea Party morph into an anti-Mormon party? Will they insist that it is known beyond doubt that Jewish people wouldn't be returning to North America, that Europeans arrived first, that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is known beyond a reasonable doubt to be a fraud?

If they do that, then we can let the Supreme Court decide. There are laws against fraud. Wasn't Arthur Andersen closed down? It's time for a decision to be made. Try to shut down the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and I anticipate that other denominations will support them and fight against the government.

The choice is clear:

world peace ...

... or another American civil war.

Which would you prefer?

[nineteen50]

1. Being born at the right time to the right family is like winning the lottery

except you pay taxes on lottery wins.

[Ruby the Liberal]

2. An aside

IDF service is not limited to men in Israel. Women are required to serve the country as well - for the same amount of time and at the same age bracket.

[Boojatta]

3. How many American women are serving their country in combat operations in Iraq?

I hope that it's possible for America to achieve as much gender equality as a country that a politician in France allegedly spoke of as a "manure-like little country."

[Ruby the Liberal]

4. No idea.

Never heard any stats.

[JackintheGreen]

5. Seems to me it's only tangentially (sort of) about religion

A lot of countries have mandatory military service, including Finland, Norway, Greece and Switzerland, none of which are considered to be war-like or war-making. Politically it is a decision made by countries to instill nationalism, share risk, etc. Israel sees itself as a nation under risk (primarily BECAUSE of religion) and as such feels that all citizens - male and female - should serve to protect it. Frankly, I don't disagree. Children in any nation with mandatory service are socialized from birth into a culture that requires such sacrifices. But the socio-political culture is so much different there, different enough that it is difficult for those outside the system to imagine the imprint made on its citizens.

Caveat: this was quickly written without much reflection. Feel free to poke it with holes and I will respond with more thought, if necessary.

[Boojatta]

6. Isn't it legal for citizens of Greece to work anywhere in the EU?

Perhaps you own land that is suitable for farming, and you have the necessary knowledge, skills, experience, tools, physical strength, and seeds to farm the land. Perhaps you also have a food supply to sustain you until your crops are ready to be harvested. Otherwise, you need money to buy food. It's nice when you can earn money without violating the law, because it's nice to avoid the kind of extreme weight loss experienced by the patients in Adolf Hitler's outdoor weight loss clinics for Jews, Jehovah's Witnesses, Gays, etc.

As for Switzerland, how many scud missiles did Saddam Hussein fire into Switzerland when words alone weren't enough to remove the Iraqi military from Kuwait, and a number of countries (not including Israel) participated in the war to expel the Iraqi military from Kuwait?

[JackintheGreen]

7. You have lost me

I've read your response, reread your OP and the comments, and I cannot see a coherent thread.

[Boojatta]

8. Are people who were born in Greece prohibited by law from working outside Greece?

Can't they leave? Will they be extradited back to Greece and forced to do military service? Also, during their military service, is it likely that Greece will be attacked simultaneously by a number of countries surrounding Greece, countries that have large populations, vast wealth from oil, and military hardware from around the world?

[JackintheGreen]

9. I'm not Greek, and I don't know

My point was altogether different. I do have Israeli friends who have told me (true or not, I cannot confirm) that if they are out of the country during a "scheduled" service term - say they are at university abroad - their service will be deferred until they return.

But I still don't get what this has to do with anything. Are Greeks barred from working out of the country? Of course not. I know several, all of whom work in the U.S. But what does the relative likelihood of Greece being attacked on multiple fronts have to do with anything? With mandatory Israeli military service? With some imagined open war against the LDS?

Honestly, I'm trying to understand, but this screed of yours, but you keep skirling off into different directions.

[Boojatta]

11. I'm pleased that their military service is deferred.

Perhaps the UN can arrange for all wars between the world's nation-states to be deferred ... indefinitely.

[JackintheGreen]

14. I think I understand your main thrust

and I agree. But whether or not a nation is at risk, I sort of agree with the motivation behind required military service. As I said, nations like Norway and Finland and Switzerland all require a term of service, but no one could argue that these nations are under serious, sustained militaristic threat. I think that a year or two of service before the age of 25 engenders a sense of shared purpose, cultural belonging, patriotism (in the real sense of the word, not the GWB/Mayor Rudy version).

[edhopper]

10. A couple of points.

A lot of countries have National service. We in the US have the draft, which can be imposed whenever Congress feels like,
Second, the Mormons are full of shit about Jesus or Jews coming here. Joseph Smith was a con man nothing more. So we should base nothing on their ridiculous dogma.
And your answer is that everybody just leave Israel, the land they were born to? If you think that alone will end conflict in the middle east, you don't know it's history.

[Boojatta]

12. "your answer is that everybody just leave Israel, the land they were born to"

No, that's not my answer. Muslims who are there can stay there. Muslims who were born elsewhere and who want to return there can return. They like worshiping such things as rocks and parcels of land, and banning such things as a novel by Salman Rushdie.

[edhopper]

16. And you think that will bring peace to the region?

[Boojatta]

17. If you are concerned that it might not bring peace ...

then you have the option of first becoming an Orthodox Jew and then getting permission to emigrate to Israel. You can trade places with somebody who is currently in Israel and who would prefer to work, live, (and avoid military combat) in America.

You could be just as successful as Benjamin Disraeli! He became Prime Minister of the UK. If I'm not mistaken, he or his ancestors converted from Judaism to Christianity, and without that conversion he couldn't have become Prime Minister.

You could become more successful than Disraeli. You could persuade the people of Israel to change their political system to a monarchy. You could then become King of Israel, the Messiah, and the King of Kings.

In the beginning was the word. You could be the word of truth, and revise the Bible to eliminate all errors in it.

[edhopper]

18. Where did you get the notion

that young people in Israel want to leave to avoid service?

[Boojatta]

19. The government of Israel gave me that notion when they decided

that refusing to do military service and refusing to provide a reason for that refusal will result in a court judgment of more than one shekel against the defendant.

[edhopper]

20. How is that different from any other country

with national service.
You do seem to be suggesting that Israel should dissolve itself as a country. And that that will bring peace to the middle east.

[Boojatta]

21. It is the decision of individual citizens of Israel.

If those who defend the embattled geographic location choose to go elsewhere, then it will have been their decision, not mine.

However, they cannot do what money does. Money is free to travel around the globe. People need permission to work. Otherwise they are violating the law.

America is a land of immigrants. Is there no more room?

[edhopper]

22. I have completely lost

what this discussion is about.

[cleanhippie]

23. I'm not sure he even knows what this conversation is about.

But you gave it one hell of an effort. Bravo.

[Boojatta]

13. "Joseph Smith was a con man nothing more."

How would you characterize the Apostle Paul?

[edhopper]

15. I don't have

the contemporaneous records for
Paul that we do for Smith.

[Boojatta]

24. Kick

[Boojatta]

25. Kick