Prayer: The Ultimate Hypocrisy

[cleanhippie]

Christians, as well as any other religion that engages in the practice of petitioning their god(s) with prayer, actually believe that their god alters the physical properties of the universe to specifically accommodate their request, regardless of how their petition might affect someone else. This has been brought to example many times by the comparison of the Christian who prays for sunshine to grace their weekend outdoor plans, but the farmer next door is praying for rain because even one more day without will ensure the destruction of his crops and leave him broke for the entire winter.

The fervent belief that many Christians have regarding the effectiveness of prayer comes about only by virtue of what their holy book says, and not on actual or statistical evidence. In the bible, the character portrayed as Jesus makes a number of promises on the topic of prayer. In the book of Matthew, Jesus is given credit for stating that whatever is asked for in “His name” will be granted. He promises that if one has a level of faith compared to the tiny mustard seed, they will be able to cast mountains into the sea. Not to mention the whole healing thing. The truth of the matter is that prayers get answered in the favor of the petitioner at about the same rate as doing nothing at all. In fact, double blind studies have shown that many sick people who know they are being prayed over actually fare worse due to performance anxiety. The convenient explanation that is used when these types of prayers are not answered, even when the situation being prayed over ends up getting worse, is that their god works in mysterious ways and those ways should not be questioned. We lowly human beings are not meant to understand the higher mind of god, you see.

Then there are the prayers that do not require the bending and twisting of the natural world to accommodate a need. It’s not always a request a change in the weather, the avoidance of destruction by natural disaster or the eradication of some terminal illness. Having spent over a decade as a Pastor, I can tell you with great certainty that most prayer requests are quite simplistic and usually involve a need that can be met by either helping hands or an infusion of cash. A repair to a home or a vehicle is offered up, or school clothes for the kids, etc. When these needs are met, they are perceived as granted prayers. Mind you, I would be less skeptical if these needs were met without the petitioner notifying anyone. But, the reality is that these needs are not met because of divine intervention or providence, but because the prayer requests were made known to other humans. Through the camaraderie that surrounds their common belief, fellow believers are called into action. Donations are made, people show up with hammers and plywood or a box of clothing magically appears on a doorstep.

This is not god, people. I venture to say I would be less cynical about the whole process if it were genuine altruism. But it’s not. The same results occur when Atheists band together to help our fellow humans out. The only difference is that we are not trying to impress a god, or anyone else for that matter, and by virtue of the fact that we are not acting with the expectation of a reward in heaven or to avoid some sort of divine retribution, our actions are a true definition of altruism. But I digress…

--snip--

Time spent praying may offer comfort to the faithful because they believe their efforts are effective, be it for personal reasons or for the benefit of others. The truth is that prayer is a placebo, and a dangerous one when it involves the ignorance toward science and medicine. Prayer is a perfect example of doing something for oneself and calling it helping others. It’s the ultimate form of hypocrisy. This has been proven time and time again and will not change until people realize that two hands engaged in works are far more effective than two hands clasped in prayer.

http://atheists.org/blog/2011/09/12/prayer-the-ultimate-hypocrisy

[MineralMan]

1. Back in the days before I gave up Christianity for Lent,

I heard one very intelligent Christian religious leader talk about prayer. It was his point that prayer should be directed at improving the understanding and compassion of the one doing the praying, rather than asking for favors from God. That always made sense to me.

That's reinforced by the Lord's Prayer, which represents the form of prayer recommended by Christianity's Jesus as recorded in Matthew. The only physical request in that prayer is a rather humble request for basic foodstuffs. The rest of the prayer is praise and a request that the person doing the praying be forgiven for sins in the same way the person doing the praying forgives others for their transgressions. Finally, the prayer requests delivery from evil.

I was always struck, however, by the nature of most public prayers I heard in church and elsewhere. Those seemed usually to be characterized by specific request from the deity for benefits, with a brief prelude giving faint praise to that deity.

"We'd just ask you Lord to hear our prayer and grant our request for money and stuff, so we can build a bigger church and shit."

That sort of thing.

Once I became an atheist, the prayers I continued to hear rang even more hollow than before.

[formercia]

2. "Deliver us from Evil."

Going out and killing innocents has turned us into Evil Incarnate.

How many more have to die in the name of God?

[MineralMan]

3. I can't answer your question. You'll have to ask someone else,

I'm afraid. I don't do deities.

[roguevalley]

15. I pray for the natural good for all, nothing that requires bending

physics. I also thank the greater energy around me for all the blessings I have. i find being grateful for my circumstances very helpful for me. I pray for strength to live my life well and to do as much good as possible. I thank all my family going back forever for doing the best they could and how it helps me to be here in the life I have now. I don't ask for anything but what comes to me naturally. I am working for my life and don't expect miracles. And I always ask for help for the world and all who suffer, that those who have a chance to make change do so for the good of all. I don't ask for lottery numbers or miracles. My life is filled enough with miracles as it is.

[alterfurz]

4. a prayer for the rest of us

[ejpoeta]

5. the only prayers I have ever really indulged in had to do with things like...

when my mom was really sick when i was 12, I asked that god make her better or take her so she didn't have to suffer anymore. I think it's ridiculous to ask for sunny weather for your vacation. I could see asking for rain for your crops though. I don't really pray. I believe if you do, it should not be public, but private. and not some mindless our father or anything like that. Though I did it for my dad in his last days. We all kind of laughed at the irony of his years of trying to get us to go to church and he managed to get us all to say a prayer around him with a priest just before he died.

but I digress. I believe if you are going to pray, it better be for something important. Like if someone were missing and you want them to be found safe... or something like that. Not praying you can get some great deal on shoes. Some people are like that. Maybe I'm being too judemental. But then, I don't believe in religion either. I like to say I believe in God, but I don't believe in Religion.

We can be pretty self indulgent sometimes. Maybe we aren't always supposed to get what we want either. Sometimes we are supposed to get rain on our vacation. I was pretty upset when my mom died. That wasn't the result I wanted. But what do you want from a 12 year old. After awhile I could at least be glad she wasn't hurting anymore. And I can now look back and see all the thing I have gone through, both good and bad that have led me where I am now. Both the rain and the sun are important aspects of creating a person. I miss my mom, but who would I be today had things been different? Someone else.

[Thats my opinion]

7. Many of us agree.

If the essence of prayer is our attempt to manipulate some higher power to violate the forces of nature because we have a need, then prayer may be a superstitious exercise.

Our Quaker friends remind us that prayer is centering the self in a turning world. Thus it is not getting the power source to respond to our plug, but getting our plug to respond to the meaning and purpose of all existence. When I am centered and at peace with myself and the universe, then I will better know what to do. As long as I think I can manipulate God, I am on a futile trip. Prayer changes things--that means it changes me and my direction. A centered mind and spirit helps me see life more clearly.

[ejpoeta]

8. i like that. I agree. It seems to be a good way to focus your energy on a certain goal and may

[Lydia Leftcoast]

13. Right, those prayers that some evangelicals utter, as if God is their personal gopher

or as if God needs to be informed of the community's news, make me crazy.

Most of my prayers are for guidance for myself or other people. The guidance doesn't come from a voice from the sky, but from people who turn up unexpectedly or say unexpected things. Maybe it's just coincidence, but sometimes the coincidences are so bizarre that they make you go, "Hmm."

[cleanhippie]

32. So you are equating prayer with meditation?

I am ok with that, and I think you nailed it in your first sentence, "prayer may be a superstitious exercise."

[kag]

6. One of the toughest things I've ever done as a parent...

was when both of my kids were in elementary school. The mother of a girl in my daughter's 2nd grade class was killed in bicycling accident. She had been well-loved in the community, and the memorial service was HUGE. My daughter and I both sobbed, as did nearly everyone in the rather large room.

When we got home I explained to my kids how these were times when people find true comfort in their religion. They teach themselves that their loved one is sitting up on a soft cloud now, watching over us and smiling down. And it IS comforting--one hell of a lot more so than the truth, which is that NO ONE KNOWS what happens after you die. I tried not be too brutal about it, and my kids had a bunch of questions. But we got through it, and they, I believe, are the wiser for it.

I understand why people pray. I just wish they understood why I don't.

Thanks for the post. I think I'll forward it to my son and daughter. (They're older now, and can handle it.)

[humblebum]

9. Another one of hippie's highly credible, disinterested sources:

American Atheists.

[struggle4progress]

10. I'm guessin poor Al once believed prayers were magic tokens for some cosmic vending machine

and has since been angrily disappointed

The unfortunate and continuin shallowness of Al's thought is evident: "Christians" (he begins) "actually believe &c&c" -- as if his own former ideas were the only possible ideas; and as if everyone, who does not think as he Al thinks now, must necessarily think as he Al used to think

[moobu2]

11. Tell me one instance where the physical principles of the universe

were altered by magical command and I will re-convert to Christianity... otherwise, I will continue to think that prayer is just another word for a magical superstitious incantation, a.k.a. a spell, and worth about as much.

[struggle4progress]

12. You don't seem to have understood what I wrote

[trotsky]

14. I think you are woefully out of touch with how a majority of Christians views prayer. n/t

[roguevalley]

16. so what? What makes them right? People have prayed since we

came down out of the trees. Its a meditation for many and if a bunch of philistines think its a vending machine, they will be disappointed. It puts me in touch with my soul and the divine.

[trotsky]

30. So what? What makes you right?

I am merely commenting that by far the most common perception of prayer is just like a divine vending machine. Or perhaps more like a divine digger game. You usually don't get what you want, but when you do, praise god! I never said anything to deny you your interpretation of prayer.

[roguevalley]

33. and I have never said a word to deny you. I merely commented

that there are as many people praying for the soul and simple things, meditative things as there are people doing the other. It is so sad that the spiritual is defined by the loudest shouters. It should be noted that the baptists are in abject terror because their young people are leaving due to this. Prayer is meditation with the universe for me. I don't care about the others. They are on their own journey and if they stay in spiritual kindergarten their entire lives I pity them.

[struggle4progress]

18. Could be. I don't actually know the majority of Christians

[Thats my opinion]

22. I am surprised

That you are now an expert on what Christians think. Who is woefully out of touch? Why not ask someone from inside the discipline who may just know what is going on.

[trotsky]

27. You choose to see the version of Christianity that you prefer.

We outsiders get to see all of you that claim the label "Christian." I think our perspective is a unique one that brings more information to the table. I do not understand why you want to silence me.

[Kurmudgeon]

17. DU, where disrespect against people of faith is not only tolerated, but supported

I expect this post will either be ignored or hounded by the "tolerant" with insults and derision.
There are plenty of people who don't believe the same as I do, I've never felt the need to post several
paragraphs denigrating them or their beliefs.
That kind of intolerance appears to be rather common among the militant atheists.
I guess DU is ONLY for a select few with the proper disbelief.

[edhopper]

19. It's called the R/T Forum

where we debate ALL aspects of R/T. Posting a well thought out article on the contradictory nature of prayer is well within the purpose. If it offends your sensibilities, perhaps staying in the Christian Forums would better suit your needs. Sorry, that is just the way it is.

[Kurmudgeon]

40. I'll remember your post the next time the names and labels start to fly.

Because apparently prejudice is ok, as long as it's in the right forum.
Oh, and the original post was just a snarky rant, hardly thought out except for the effort put into being judgemental.
Just because the poster is cynical, neither hides nor excuses his contempt.
I guess the article is appealing to some if they share his hatred of others, all he needs is the correct label.

[deacon_sephiroth]

47. I'm confused

You started out by prematurely slaiming that YOU were going to be insulted and labeled... and so you repeatedly slap labels all over the OP. I get that we SHOULD feel sorry for you, I'm just having a hard time figuring out why.

[humblebum]

20. Atheists post in the R/T forum because they are a religion, I guess.

That's all I can figure. I would not expect atheists to agree with the idea of prayer, but just as we have no objective proof that it accomplishes its purpose, atheists also have no proof that it does not. That's not to say that it does not work and have a purpose. I have no doubt that it does. It can have a very powerful and positive effect in the life of a believer.

[edhopper]

21. So if I post in the Sport Forum

that means I am an athlete? If I post in the Science Forum, that means I am a scientist? If I post in the Economy Forum, that means I am an economist?
Or I am interested in certain subjects and post in those Forums.
Trying to be clever and failing can be so sad.

[humblebum]

24. A better analogy would be if you went to the sports forum and

overwhelmingly bomblasted and insulted the athletes, then got upset when they spoke out against it. The lion's share of the R/T forum is devoted to anti-religious rhetoric, usually anti-Christian.

[humblebum]

25. The atheistic POV's in the R/T forum are also reflective of the

greater New Atheist movement so active in political and religious/anti-religious circles today. I also think that it is very necessary to distinguish between New Atheism (radical atheism) and simple, everyday atheists.

[cleanhippie]

37. So you are some kind of religious "athalete"? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Stop it bum, you're killing me!


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[humblebum]

41. Kinda hard to face what you are sometimes isn't hippie? nt

[deacon_sephiroth]

48. That happens all the time actually

granted I don't hang out in the DU sports forums because I really couldn't possibly care about anything less than I care about "sports."

However I do work in a large building filled with guys, who are constantly yammering about it, and insulting the athletes is a CONSTANT practice.

person A: "Tim Tebo RULES!"
person B: "Tebo sucks, he's a punk, he gets coddled, etc etc etc."

I suppose the only difference is, society hasn't been conditioned to think that pro athletes are cared and must not be spoken out against. They don't martyr themselves in weeping and claming persecution as they continue to rule all aspects of society (often). If someone speaks out against an athlete they are not threatened with ETERNAL torture (often). Books of sports conduct don't repeatedly tell you to hunt sports-haters down and massacre them. For whom soever sayeth Tim Tebo sucks, let him be stoned in the streets?

A better analogy? Keep working on it...

[Thats my opinion]

26. Of course you may post--and should.

But that doesn't qualify you as someone who really knows what is going on--so a little humility might be in order. And that goes for all of us, including "thats my opinion."

[Thats my opinion]

23. They have tried to run me out for months n/t

[laconicsax]

34. Yes. That's why we keep insisting you participate in the discussions you start.

:eyes:

[rrneck]

36. It's not that hard.

You leave every time you hear a difficult question.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[formercia]

29. I agree.

Ramen

Now, where did I put that Pasta Strainer?

[socialshockwave]

39. Hear hear.

You can make fun of Christians, Muslims and every other faith just fine(I see it on all other boards when a faith topic is brought up) but if you ever once criticize the athiest, who believes in nothing, about his or her belief in nothing, you're run out of the community.

It seems like if DU had an official religion it would be militant atheism.

[edhopper]

42. That is utter

and total bullshit. We stay and debate any point you want. We don't demand that our ideas are "special" and above discussion.

[skepticscott]

44. Who are you parroting

when you say that atheists "believe in nothing"? Because you're obviously too smart to think of something so idiotic on your own.

Or would you say that a Christian, who believes in only one god out of thousands, believes in "almost nothing"?

[cleanhippie]

43. Wow, that sure is SOME persecution complex you have there.

[rug]

28. That's probably how he told his church to pray when he was a pastor.

He's having some sort if internal dialogue.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

31. Christians pray.

And then condemn pagans and others who perform rituals to change reality.

They are doing the same thing they condemn: trying to change reality with an action.

[tortoise1956]

35. Most TV evangelists

wouldn't know a real prayer if it bit them in the wallet.

However, there are many Christians I have known who find prayer to be uplifting. Would I be correct in assuming you have no problem with transcendental meditation? Because that is similar to true prayer.

As for Oral Roberts, Jerry Falwell, and most of the rest, if there really is a God, I don't think they'll be happy with how he views their works...

[Manifestor_of_Light]

45. Do whatever makes ya happy. Prayer, meditation, chanting....

:shrug:

[laconicsax]

46. It's really awesome that you know the mind of the omnipotent creator of the universe.

BTW, I hear that those televangelists put sugar on their porridge too!