does every thread in this forum devolve into atheists questioning theists?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

if not, please post a link to a thread where this does not happen. thanks. do theists go into the atheist forum? if so, do they add to the content? if so, how? links appreciated. thanks.

why do atheists feel the need to post threads about atheism in a theism forum? thanks.

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. To be honest, some of us post

off this board but mods move it here... so ... what can I say?

Things like the confluence of religion and politics apparently does not belong in GD. So you may be seeing some of that.

[WhollyHeretic]

2. Maybe you should learn the difference between a group and a forum

There is an atheist group and there are various groups for different religions. This is a forum for all sides to discuss religion.

[NMMNG]

3. If you'll notice

Most of the threads posted about atheism are posted by a theist.

Sometimes theists do go into the atheists/agnostics group, though they're expected to abide by the rules of that group (the rules for groups are somewhat different than for forums.

This is a forum for the discussion of religion and theology. It's open to all DU members. One doesn't have to be religious or a theologian to participate. If you want to discuss a particular religion free from any opposing viewpoints you're free to do so in one of the religion groups.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=291
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=275
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=316
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=359
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=237

[Luminous Animal]

4. What atheist forum? And why shouldn't atheists post here? It is, afterall, discussions

about religion/theology. And certainly atheists have opinions about both.

[NMMNG]

6. Much like Teh Gays

Atheists don't belong with the Regular People. We should all stick to our little ghettos, lest we upset others. :eyes:

[laconicsax]

12. +1

[provis99]

5. sounds like you want atheists to shut up or go away.

Do you know the definition of forum? It's a public space open to everybody.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

7. Really? Yeah, I have nothing better to do than search threads for any Mention of God

So I can jump all over them. While we're at it, can we bring back the lions? Good grief this place is going downhill.

[iris27]

8. This is not "a theism forum".

There are many separate DU groups for believers of different stripes to post in without atheist interference, just like there is an atheist/agnostic forum that operates (mostly) without theist interference.

THIS is the R/T forum where both sides can discuss issues of religion and theology, how they operate in society, and the like.

And usually, threads specifically "about atheism" (as in "Dawkins spouts sexist bullishit, makes news") tend to get posted by the theists, not the atheists. Not always, but usually.

This is the debate and discussion space. There are separate spaces relating to religious belief (or lack thereof) for those who don't wish to engage in debate or discussion.

(Edited for spelling.)

[darkstar3]

9. IBTL

Get thee to an echo chamber.

[MADem]

10. Yeah, pretty much--it's why I avoid this area by and large unless I have a specific query.

It's kind of strange.

I would suspect it is more about looking for a fight/smackdown than having a discussion.

You can't make people believe what they don't want to believe, and you can't force people to not believe what they desire to believe.

It's a bullshit exercise, IMO.

[Thats my opinion]

23. True

[A HERETIC I AM]

11. Years ago there was a big dust-up between this forum and the Atheist and Agnostics group

This thread by EarlG from 2005 that is still pinned to the top of the A&A Group page tried to address the issue.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=263&topic_id=4111&mesg_id=4111

If I recall, there were numerous deleted posts and removed threads and a few banned members.

As a result of that dust-up, I hardly ever bother posting in this forum and rarely in the A & A group.

I don't want to get banned, not to mention this forum and its threads all represent similar threads and discussions I have been having on this subject since the late 1990's on the internet. It is the same crap over and over again.

[Deep13]

13. So far.

And I don't post in the liberal Christian forum or the Muslim forum etc. This is a forum ABOUT theology and religion, not FOR theology and religion.

Does every thread in this forum devolve into theists telling atheists to shut up and go away? No, some of them begin that way.

[TransitJohn]

14. This one again?

This damn question comes up all the time. This is a forum, on of the big ones, not a group. There are groups to sing kumbaya in. This forum is for discussion all facets of religion and theology and how they impact society.

[struggle4progress]

15. It's a strange forum. Certain kinds of posts and disputes tend to land here, where

we can all sling stuff at each other without disturbing the quiet ambience of GD

[rug]

16. Yes.

In this case, it only took 5 posts.

[Thats my opinion]

17. No. We theists do not invade the atheist forum.

Technically, this is not a theist forum and non-theists are welcome. i would like to see a bit more openness as if any positive religious bit is not just smashed down.

Stay with us.

[laconicsax]

18. You've posted in the Atheist group more than once.

[Thats my opinion]

22. Yup.

I posted twice at the beginning before I knew the difference. I long since repented of that indiscretion.

And there is an old collection of posters who use r/t as another club to attack theists. It is sometimes difficult to tell whether posters really want serious discussion or whether they just want to take shots at serious theists. You judge. Both are welcome here.

[trotsky]

25. When being asked questions and told you have to back up what you say...

is considered "taking shots," yeah, this forum is gonna be upsetting for a lot of believers. Your mischaracterizations of these requests for support of what you say as attacks feeds the problem you claim to be struggling against.

[rrneck]

28. Still rallying suppot?

We have been asking YOU direct questions that you refuse to answer. That's hardly an attack on theism, although it may hamper herd development.

[LeftishBrit]

29. Yes. but ...

It is also sometimes difficult to tell whether posters really want serious discussion or whether they just want to take shots at serious *atheists*.

It goes both ways.

[LeftishBrit]

19. But this is not an a theism forum

It's a religion and theology issues. For discussing these issues from all points of view, including (but not restricted to) atheism. If you want a group for theists to discuss religion, there is the Christian Liberals/Progressive People of Faith group, and several other groups for specific religions and denominations.

[deacon_sephiroth]

20. 1000+ posts... and no idea how forums work... good game. n/t

[TexasProgresive]

21. This is the most worthless forum on DU

I wish that I could hide it because nothing of import happens here.

[Thats my opinion]

24. That has been an old but sad fact.

I started posting here some months ago in an effort to turn it a bit toward serious discussion. There are now several more readers and a few posters who appreciate the effort. At least what is now appearing and what is in my personal mail say so.

[trotsky]

26. Many of us are still waiting for you to actually have a DISCUSSION.

Your idea of that concept seems to be posting your latest sermon or LTTE, and expecting nothing but nods of agreement. You're dealing with people who support almost all the same political goals as you, but do not want to have religion foisted along with them. We've seen how terribly that gets abused on the right, and we don't think that the left is any more immune from it.

In fact, the repeated attacks on atheists like the OP of this thread, insinuating that we don't even belong here and our opinions are not welcome, or several of the replies that suggest atheists are the sole cause of any perceived problems in the forum, are only fueling the fire you claim to be fighting.

Whatever happened to "turn the other cheek" and "love your enemies"?

[Thats my opinion]

35. very funny

So everything is OK in this religion/theology seminar as long as nobody dares mention religion or theology in any positive sense. That is to have "religion foisted on you." Do you wonder why r/t has such a negative image on DU.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

36. Do you ever wonder why few of us take you seriously?

"So everything is OK in this religion/theology seminar as long as nobody dares mention religion or theology in any positive sense."

That sounds like something a pouting 8 year old child would say.

And I want to reiterate what other posters have pointed out to you multiple times: questioning your religion is NOT attacking it, no matter how much you dislike it. If you want an echo chamber, there are several that you should visit.

[trotsky]

39. Why are you twisting my words?

You are free to mention religion or theology any time you want. This is R/T, after all. But when you start cloaking your political agenda (even if it happens to coincide with mine, which it almost certainly does) in your religion, and demanding people implement it because it's what your god wants, I believe I have the right to disagree with that approach, and I think the R/T forum is the appropriate place to do it.

Now if you disagree with any of the above, let's discuss it.

[provis99]

33. then you haven't seen the Guns, Israel\Palestine, or Health forums.

the Religion forum is a beacon of wisdom compared to those.

[TexasProgresive]

37. I try to avoid those as well-

Once in a while There will be something good in Health. I have mixed feelings and thoughts about guns and Israel/Palestine so I usually scroll past those fora. I would hide them if that was allowed. It would sure clean up the page.

I also think that there needs to be a forum for the celebrity hype of the day and that it to could be hidden.

Rant, rant and rave Oh well, I'm done doing that. I'll take what I can get from DU.

[skepticscott]

54. You're perfectly free to never come in here

never post here and never even think about this forum. But apparently you feel the need to come here enough to be able to justify a blanket condemnation of the whole place. Whatever.

[deacon_sephiroth]

27. To answer your question...

no, I will not just shut up and go away. (I can only speak for myself... maybe all the other pesky Atheists will)

[ZombieHorde]

30. Here is one recent R/T thread that did not "devolve" into atheists questioning theists.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x302151

Technically, R/T is for religious debate from different religious/nonreligious opinions. The Groups are for members of the groups; e.g., the Catholic group is for Catholics, the Skeptic group is for skeptics, etc. Posters who are unfamiliar with the groups sometimes wonder in a group they don't belong to and argue, but this is usually an honest mistake.

[edhopper]

31. Characterizing the critical questioning of theists' ideas

as "devolving" shows an intolerant view of atheism.

[trotsky]

32. Great point. n/t

[NMMNG]

34. It's interesting how it's acceptable, even proper, to question ideas

except when it comes to religion. Then it's mean-spirited bashing by intolerant goons. Except, of course, when it's one religious person/group questioning the ideas of another religious person/group.

[Taverner]

38. This is not a theist forum

It is a forum discussing religion, and theology

Atheists have JUST AS MUCH RIGHT as do theists to discuss these things

[Lydia Leftcoast]

40. No, I don't want atheists to shut up and go away, but I think there is a bit of an imbalance

When I first started posting in this forum many years ago, several members instructed me quite firmly about what I may and may not say about atheists. I already knew that atheism isn't a religion, but I was told that I couldn't call it a belief system or a worldview or a philosophy, nor could I say that atheists were materialists or empiricists. Whatever I said, someone jumped on it.

However, some of the atheists participants in this forum feel free to say whatever they please about religious people, accurate or not. They can be rude, angry, over-generalize, whatever, and if religious people object, they are sarcastically accused of claiming persecution.

I have largely taken the attitude that Jesus espoused when he sent his disciples out into the countryside. In essence, he told them that if people weren't interested in what they had to say, they should just "shake the dust from their sandals" and move on.

I rarely post here anymore unless someone asks for factual information.

[skepticscott]

41. Were you really TOLD that you were forbidden to say those things?

Or, more likely, were you told that they are demonstrably untrue and that anyone would be be silly to claim otherwise?

And yes, atheists WILL feel free to say what they want about religious people. If it's inaccurate, religious people can respond with facts and arguments of their own, just like the atheists here do in the same situation, and in the end, the truth will win out. That's what a discussion board is all about, yes? If nobody ever said anything inaccurate, we wouldn't need a place like this, now would we? Except to constantly tell each other how wonderful the wonderfulness of our beliefs is.

As far as persecution, the religionists here have no trouble claiming that explicitly, and all on their own. For which they should be ashamed, without exception. To call ANYTHING that happens in this forum "persecution", when compared to the real persecution that people face every day in real life, is disgraceful. Wouldn't you agree?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

44. Well, when I do correct inaccuracies, I'm accused of indulging in the

"no true Scotsman fallacy," so all in all, the behavior of certain people in this forum reminds me of my grandmother's Old Country proverb, "If you want to beat a dog, you can always find a stick."

And I have NOT EVER claimed to be persecuted.

[darkstar3]

45. And you consider a critique of your argumentation to be accusation?

Well, I think we found the problem.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

46. No

Thanks for misreading what I said.

[darkstar3]

47. You used the words "I'm accused".

Pardon me all to shit for taking that to mean that you felt other posters were making accusations.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

48. Here's what I said:

When I correct errors, some atheist posters accuse me of using "the no true Scotsman fallacy."

I'm not talking about being attacked for my beliefs. I'm talking about having my facts dismissed in that manner.

What word do the R&T thought police think I should have used?

:eyes:

[darkstar3]

49. And with the invocation of the phrase "thought police", you engage in ad hom.

Do you wish to talk about why people tell you that your argumentation is fallacious, or do you just wish to claim victimhood? You'd be amazed at the number of things that get posted in this forum that are simply bad logic. Pointing out bad logic when it is used is not an accusation, it's a critique. It's a simple statement that means that your argument is flawed and unconvincing.

And if someone told you that you were invoking the NTS fallacy, chances are incredibly good that what you posted wasn't "facts", but rather your interpretation of ancient text. I haven't seen the post(s), so I don't know, but if they were right to call your post an invocation of NTS, then you didn't post facts.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

50. Usually occurs when I'm correcting misconceptions

that go against the prevailing stereotypes.

But if it makes you feel superior to think I'm claiming "persecution" (I've met people who actually were persecuted in other countries, so I do not use that term to refer to mere rudeness.), fine. It's nearly midnight here, so I'm done for the day.

[darkstar3]

51. If your corrections are based entirely on your own opinion or interpretation,

then your argument stands a good chance of being fallacious.

But keep claiming that victimhood (note I didn't say "persecution" because I know the difference) if that's your cup of tea.

[skepticscott]

53. So EVERY "inaccuracy" that you ever tried to correct

was met with a claim of the NTS fallacy? Doubtful.

And where, please, did I accuse YOU of claiming persecution? Many people here have and do, as you well know, and they're the ones I was referring to, as you well know.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

56. Yes, a certain poster who is no longer here was on everyone's case about it

and so in deference to her feelings, and to get her off my back, I agreed to her limitations.

[skepticscott]

57. So in other words, your answer is no

Nobody forbade you to say any of those things. You decided not to stand up and say what you thought was right and then defend what you said with facts and arguments. And then to blame other people for it.

[Thats my opinion]

42. There is a new day in r/t

And you are greatly missed. You always have something to say

[skepticscott]

55. Yes, and things are really picking up

in the Liberal Christians group too, aren't they?

[kwassa]

43. Is the Pope Catholic? Some threads don't devolve, they start right at the bottom.

There is only one real topic here, atheism vs. theism, which is what this forum should be named.

The bickering goes round and round and round, and no one is persuaded. The same arguments, I should add. Over and over and over.

Over time, participants change, but make the same statements prior posters have made.

[skepticscott]

52. How wonderful that you have enough insight

into the minds of everyone who has ever read the posts here to claim that "no one is persuaded". Atheists and anti-theists keep posting the same responses, because the religionists keep recycling the same bogus, discredited arguments year after year after year. You'd think they'd come up with something new to support their claims, but they never do. SOS.

And if there are no other topics here, who's to blame for that? The theists whine and complain that there are never any threads involving a serious discussion of belief, or theology, or "faith", but the bottom line is that they are really unwilling or unable to have such a discussion (and not because the mean ol' atheists won't let them). Check out the Christian Liberals group for your proof.

[kwassa]

58. Bogus discredited arguments?

You do have a lively imagination.