Couple allowed their 12-year-old daughter to be raped by a preacher

[moobu2]

A couple have been accused of allowing their 12-year-old daughter to be raped by a veteran preacher they invited into their home.
They are also alleged to have allowed an incestuous relationship between two of their children in what authorities have called a 'tragic abuse of children'.
Investigators believe Jerry and Christina Ham's religious beliefs may have played a part in allowing the alleged sexual abuse.



Investigators believe the parents may have also allowed their oldest boy, now 12, to participate in sexual acts with his sister.


'We believe there are some religious connotations. We really don't know for sure.

'There's some strange beliefs in the family, to put it mildly.

'There was certainly a permittance of this type of activity that's not normal.' The abuse came to light following the arrest of Martin, a preacher for the last 50 years.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2039226/Jerry-Christina-Ham-let-daughter-12-raped-preacher-Larry-Gene-Martin.html#ixzz1YSFDW4yG">Text

[Odin2005]

1. OMG!

:grr:

[dmallind]

2. ...and the No True Scotsman in two. Typical. nt

[Ilsa]

3. I'll type it out for you ... "No real Christian would let..." blah blah blah. nt

[socialshockwave]

6. Your ignorance aside, it's true.

It's disgusting.

[dmallind]

8. wait a minute - you honestly BELIEVE that?

That Christianity can be determined by behavior rather than belief? Explain that once will you?

[Ilsa]

21. "Your ignorance aside..."

Excuse me? Are you disputing the reference? The argument? You say I'm ignorant but my comment is true? Please explain your logic. I was spelling out the previous post's reference.

[laconicsax]

4. They're not part of an "official" church, their beliefs are outside the "mainstream," etc.

Now that we've gotten those out of the way, this is fucking disgusting! :puke:

[dmallind]

5. But atheists are just the same! One guy was a bit creepy in an elevator remember! nt

[struggle4progress]

7. What exactly are their beliefs?

... Martin's 50 years of preaching may have ended at Faith Bible Church in Palestine, that's where authorities say he pastored the family of a 12-year-old girl.

After Martin's wife died, investigators say he grew closer to the family.

"The family really trusted this man. They brought him in as a friend. They asked him to live in their home. He had nowhere to live," said Captain Jay Russell, of the Anderson County Sheriff's Office ...

"She reached out to him as a possible parental figure. He took that and pretty much ran with it," said Russell. "He told us he knew it was wrong. He admitted that he knew it was wrong" ...

Texas pastor accused of molesting girl
Posted: Jan 22, 2011 6:24 PM EST Updated: Jan 26, 2011 6:22 PM EST
http://www.14news.com/story/13890038/texas-pastor-accused-of-molesting-girl

[laconicsax]

9. Just to hazard a guess...

They probably believe hat Jesus Christ was the Abrahamic god's son who died on the cross, and through whom salvation can be achieved by faith.

Sorry to broadbrush like that, but people who identify as Christians generally believe that. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

[struggle4progress]

10. Forgive my slow wit, but I don't see the connection between that and the alleged sexual abuse. The

sheriff quoted in the OP snippet says "We believe there are some religious connotations. We really don't know for sure. There's some strange beliefs in the family, to put it mildly"

That might have been the reason for posting the story here. So I became curious whether anybody knew anything about the beliefs of the parties charged in this case

:shrug:

[dmallind]

11. You think perhaps ardent Hindus

chose to extend such hospitality and courtesy to a fundamentalist Christian preacher for religious reasons? You think such a preacher would choose to live with Satanists maybe? I mean, they did attend his church. Faith Bible Church sound Taoist to you?

[struggle4progress]

13. Pardon again my slow wit, but I don't understand your answer: I'm trying to understand

the supposed relation between the religious beliefs of the accused parties and the subsequent alleged crime; to understand it, I think I first need to know more about their religious beliefs; then perhaps one could detail some plausible psychological connection between mind-state and criminal behavior

[dmallind]

16. We can only guess what fundamentalist Christians see as a connection here

as they seem to make it up as they go along for good or bad to me picking and choosing among the many contradictory verses the ones that support whatever they want (perhaps Lot's example was foremost), but it's clear they were members of his church, which is obviously a Christian one.

[struggle4progress]

24. That's uninformative. Palestine TX is solid bible-belt country, and perhaps most

inhabitants have thumped their books one day or another

So, a large fraction of folks in town are likely to be a religious conservatives -- from the folk who alerted the authorities about their suspicions of abuse to the grand jury that indicted the house guest

[dmallind]

29. So your basic refutation is - not ALL Christians are child-pimping or molesting scum?

I knew that already. Doesn't help the victims of those who are.

[struggle4progress]

30. sheriff quoted in op suggests religious beliefs associated with crime. i asked what beliefs;

as i understand your reply, christian fundamentalism (of the accused) explains the alleged crime. i say your explanation is uninformative: palestine tx is no doubt full of christian fundamentalists

i'm still trying to learn exactly what religious beliefs are suspected of contributing to the alleged events -- and how those beliefs may have contributed. we don't seem to have made much progress on that question so far in this thread

[dmallind]

34. Do crime reports EVER cover doctrine? Did 9/11 stories quote Surah? nt

[struggle4progress]

38. Since the house guest was arrested in mid-January and indicted in mid-May, the story's been kicking

around in bits for a while now

So it's not implausible that one could by websearch discover more than is found in the Daily Mail piece, especially as the Daily Mail is sensationalist fishwrap produced thousands of miles away, and on the other side of a major ocean, from Palestine TX: the only other co-religionist, that I could discover, for example, was proclaiming neither that Martin was innocent nor that the alleged activity was sanctioned by his belief

May 20, 2011
Man indicted for sexual misconduct with child
By PAUL STONE Palestine Herald-Press
... Larry Gene Martin, 68, of Palestine was indicted by the grand jury on April 28 on nine counts of aggravated sexual assault of a child and a single count of indecency with a child by contact ... Martin was pastor at Faith Bible Church which met in a house in the Brushy Creek area during the time of the allegations, according to Anderson County Sheriff Greg Taylor ... http://palestineherald.com/local/x467554514/Man-indicted-for-sexual-misconduct-with-child

January 19, 2011
Local pastor arrested for sexual assault of a child
By PAUL STONE Palestine Herald-Press
... On Friday, Taylor told the Herald-Press he was uncertain whether the church remained in existence ... http://palestineherald.com/local/x1221295515/Local-pastor-arrested-for-sexual-assault-of-a-child

Palestine pastor accused of molesting girl
Submitted by KLTV Web Staff
Friday, February 25th, 2011, 2:33pm
... Martin's brother-in-law, Gary Harvey, says he's always known him as a church-going man. "It makes me very sad," said Harvey. "The accusations are against a person I don't know. The one I know wouldn't do anything like this." Harvey says he was a member of what he calls the tiny church in the back of the woods, where Martin preached every Sunday morning ... http://palestine.kltv.com/news/news/palestine-pastor-accused-molesting-girl/50350

[dmallind]

40. Again - can you find an analogous story that DID specify the motivating theology? nt

[laconicsax]

31. You can make the same flawed argument for just about anything.

Raping 12 year old girls may not a tenet of Christianity, but that doesn't mean that the perpetrator isn't Christian, nor does it rule out the religion as a contributing factor. The rapist was the girl's spiritual leader. To rule out that relationship as a factor is beyond contemptible.

[struggle4progress]

32. I haven't made an argument. I've asked about the claim that the couple's beliefs were contributory

to the crime

I have taken no position regarding that claim

If, however, one is committed to reality and to rationalism, then one can regard such a claim as somewhat supported, only if one is able to detail certain of the beliefs and to draw plausible connections between the beliefs and the behaviors. So far, I do not really see either prong met: a poster upthread does feel certain that the couple consider themselves Christian but does not provide any explanation of how that supposed fact might contribute to the alleged crime. That seems to be as far as we have progressed, in fifteen posts or so, and I do not regard it as very satisfactory progress

Here, again, is the sheriff's quote, in case you might have forgotten it: "We believe there are some religious connotations. We really don't know for sure. There's some strange beliefs in the family, to put it mildly. There was certainly a permittance of this type of activity that's not normal"

Feel free to shed any light on the "strange beliefs" and the "connotations" to "this type of activity that's not normal," if you are able to do so

[laconicsax]

41. Don't be obtuse. n/t

[immoderate]

43. Christianity is a tool for rationalizing behavior.

:shrug:

--imm

[laconicsax]

12. What was the connection between the victim and her rapist?

When you figure that out, you'll have your answer. It probably isn't the answer you want to hear, but that's too bade

[struggle4progress]

14. Allegedly, the victim was the daughter of the couple in whose home the rapist lived; and allegedly

the couple was indifferent to or complicit in the abuse

I provided a link upthread alleging that the purported abuser had indicated he knew his behavior was wrong, which (if true) suggests he did not consider the abuse to be sanctioned by his religious beliefs, whatever those beliefs might have been

I have been unable to find any online discussion of the couple's beliefs

[dmallind]

15. or...suggests he knows "repentant" offenders receive more lenient treatment. nt

[struggle4progress]

17. That's an excellent point: anybody coldly manipulative enough to diddle a twelve year old

might indeed be manipulative in other ways as well

[Thats my opinion]

18. Just about the thousandth effort

to ridicule religion on the basis of a weird horror story. Get a life. The search for grotesque and stupid acts by people faith, no faith any race, culture, nation or tribe offers a world of worthless stuff that serves no purpose except to say that there are strange people everywhere.

[laconicsax]

19. How's that post coming?

I'm waiting with baited breath to hear your answers.

[Thats my opinion]

22. You will get them Wednesday.

I'll place a large bet that you won't like them, even if you agree with what they portend as far as where America needs to go. I wonder if you even care what I think, just as long as anything said only results in just another attack on any religious sensitivity.
Come on! We all want the same thing for America. We as Democratic aligned liberals are on the same team. Isn't it time we quit playing these silly games?

[trotsky]

26. I agree the silly games should stop.

For instance, claiming that it doesn't matter where the motivation for our pursuit of progressive ideals comes from, but then lauding repeatedly when someone is pursuing a progressive agenda in the name of Jesus. No one should be doing such a thing. Do you agree?

[Thats my opinion]

27. I fully support those

who pursue their progressive ideas and actions from religious belief, from non-belief or from a great variety of other motivations and perspectives. I do not examine the root of their work, thinking or action. I accept them and the conclusions just as they are. I count them all as colleagues Do you?

[trotsky]

33. I would like you to answer my question first.

Does it not matter where our motivation comes from, or is it extra special and noteworthy when that motivation comes from one's Christian religion?

[dmallind]

20. You think THAT'S the real problem here?

You know damn well Christians on the whole distrust atheists, consider them immoral, and consider themselves superior morally. I've proven it to you and you've discussed it yourself. Think about what that means for a second.....

If this is the thousandth Xian horror story (for which the ONLY people who deserve blame are the thousand horrific Christians who have been caught) it's the ten thousandth or fifty thousandth example of Christians trying to pretend their fellow believers weren't REAL Christians once they were caught. Have you, seriously, no idea how obvious that makes the utter loathing and scorn and outright hate that Christians have as a group for non-Christians? What, precisely, does it mean when the absolutely universal, guaranteed never ever ever fails response to Christianity-motivated or Christianity-excused filth is to first deny the Christianity and if impossible there, deny the motivation?

I'll spell it out for you. It means that Christians reflexively assume no REAL Christian can do evil. And who the fuck does that leave to do ALL the evil then? Are you so blind to the sheer terrifying ramification of that mindset for non-Christians? Have you no perspective on what happens to minorities who are seen as responsible for all the evil in society by a majority who despise them? Even now? And you blame US for pointing out both the behavior and the NTS response? For the sake of your supposed outreach can you give that just a few minutes to sink in?

[Thats my opinion]

23. I've seen rational posts from you,

but this wasn't one of them. I get around pretty widely in the Christian world--a lot more widely than I suspect you do. Yet you have come off as having an encyclopedic knowledge of what is going in in the religious academy, denominations, councils and churches. I have been in a thousand classes as professor and student, preached and heard multiple more sermons, know what is happening and I can tell you atheists and what they believe or don't believe has never once gotten any attention. NADA. Live and let live. You all hold what you do authentically--good on you. You are not the enemy. Let me repeat. You are not the enemy. You don't make it to the radar screen listing the nasties. Fundamentalism, violence, war, homophobia, injustice, poverty etc. That's the enemy, not atheists or atheism.

Christians, as has every other group, tribe, nation, belief, non-belief, race and all other persuasion have a core of people all of who have done and do terrible things. I grieve over the crap religious people have laid on the world. Any fool can run through the internet and find horror stories from any of these groups. That doesn't make the group evil. It means they have their share of nuts.

Where did you get the idea that "no real Christian can do evil?" Not even fundies think that. We all know much better. 'I don't know what really bothers you, but a solid perception on what is going on in the Christian world I know certainly doesn't.

[dmallind]

28. For the love of Christ stop thinking (pretending you think?) US Christians are all PhD theologians

I've proved that. Every single survey or poll shows far more fundamentalist literalist hateful scum than thoughtful universalists by a manifold factor. How many times do you need to see data that atheists are the most reviled minority in the US before you accept it? How many times do you need to see even your supposedly liberal progressive tolerant brethren here on DU parrot the facile no REAL Christian shite before you see the danger in it? If a well educated outspoken opponent of fundamentalism can't see that what chance do non-Christians have with the vast majority who wouldn't piss on us if we were on fire, for the basic reason that they (72% of ALL Americans not just Christians) think that's what awaits nonbelievers anyway.

[dmallind]

35. What they say and what they do...

Why do you think th No True Scotsman is as sure as day following night when Christian venality is discussed? What can that instinctive, absolutely certain response mean when rationally considered BUT "No REAL Christian can do evil"? Oh I know the kinder gentler type like to whinge on about humility and forgiveness and human frailty but when even they automatically try to make out that every piece of filth like this wasn't a REAL Christian, what can it signify but the unexpressed assumption that a REAL Christian wouldn't do this? What?

[Thats my opinion]

36. I really have a hard time

getting by your anger to what you are really trying to say. I have never held to the NTS notion that no real Christians can do evil. We all can do evil. I have done some terrible things. I don't l know who is a real Christian. I only know that the tradition in which I have lived--which is very broad--decries all kinds of bigotry. I don't know a single progressive Christian that claims purity. Your accusation is just off the chart. We all harbor prejudices that are so deep we cannot even recognize them. I am certain I do too. All I can tell you is that in eight decades of being profoundly within the Christian community I have not experienced the hatred of atheists of which you speak, let alone the notion that if you were on fire we would pile on the fagots. Of course there are Christians who hate almost everybody. And history is full of bigotry of every type from every tradition and belief--including non-belief. Bigotry is the primary heresy of the faith. Jesus extended his grace and love toward all the left out, believers and non believers. I do not speak for the fundamentalists. If they are homophobic, war minded, violence oriented, justice denying bigots they come from some other place than those I know. The Christian faith sees the world as flawed, and our goal is to try and humanize it for everyone--no exceptions.

When you write please deal with me and what I say and hold. If you have been hurt by religious bigots because of your non-belief, I am truly sorry. I just want you to see that the great tradition of the Christian faith, beginning with Jesus, offers you a hand of friendship, not hatred.

[dmallind]

39. Please drop the passive aggressive stance. Let's look at this a step at a time

I am neither angry nor hurt. At worst I am frustrated, but also vindicated, by a clearly progressive believer who apparently cannot see the problem. I will be very clear and take this step by step. If you respond, please tell me which step it is that seems false.

1) I am speaking of Christians as a general group. Just like saying "Americans are overweight" is not refuted by someone who says "but I am American and 5'11 and 145", telling me what you or others you know do does not refute general observations about Christians

2) I cannot say all as I lack universal knowledge, but I can say that all examples where a substantive discussion has ensued, on this site and many others including pre-internet writings, debates, books and media, that I have witnessed over many years, after an evil act committed by Christians has been raised, a No True Scotsman defense will be offered by fellow Christians.

3) This defense states that a real Christian cannot have committed such acts, because the tenets of Christianity, in the eyes of the apologist offering the NTS. forbids them. As such the deficient moral agent was not a real Christian.
http://christianrethinker.wordpress.com/2010/11/04/no-true-christian-no-true-scotsman/

-----minor aside----- it's tempting to stop consideration at this point, even if this point gets reached, and say "well ok but a minor widespread logical fallacy isn't too troubling". The real danger though of the NTS comes in its unavoidable corollary below.


4) Since an evil act has been committed, and since 3) tells us the actor cannot have been a Christian, they must have been a non-Christian.

5) All evil acts then are committed by non-Christians, QED.

6) Evil acts deserve opprobrium and punishment, all of which must be directed at non-Christians based on 4-5. Since all evil acts come from non-Christians, it is common sense to be more suspicious, mistrusting and unwelcoming toward non-Christians. As political and social cohesion declines in any society, there has never been an example where the least trusted and welcomed minority did not suffer the most.

7) Evangelicals are the biggest group of US Christians
http://religions.pewforum.org/pdf/report2religious-landscape-study-key-findings.pdf pg 8

8) Evangelical leaders are more likely to see secularism as a major threat than anything else
http://pewforum.org/Christian/Evangelical-Protestant-Churches/Global-Survey-of-Evangelical-Protestant-Leaders.aspx

9) Atheists are the least trusted, welcomed and "American" of all minorities
http://www.soc.umn.edu/~hartmann/files/atheist%20as%20the%20other.pdf

Conclusion - atheists already receive an unfair share of blame for lack of morality, and are the inevitable first target should social cohesion decline.

I am fully aware that all Christians, even knuckle-dragging tarpaper-shack snake handlers, will SAY that this is not so. I am however also certain that there is absolutely no gap or flaw in the reasoning. Which should I trust? Which would you have trusted in, say, Rome under Diocletian when Christians were in the same spot?

[darkstar3]

42. +1

:applause:

[darkstar3]

25. You assume there's a search.

You act as though posters here who offer OPs that paint a hardly complimentary view of your religion are specifically seeking these stories out, like they sit at their computer for hours dredging the internet for horror.

This is, of course, a simple ad hom, not to mention a complete fabrication. I for one have posted OPs here only after finding news stories by coincidence that would fit into the forum. I happen to know that many other posters here do the same. This isn't to say that some here don't have an obvious agenda, but your attempt to paint away every critique of a crazy nut motivated by religion fails miserably.

[struggle4progress]

37. delete. posted wrong place