What my mama taught me

[tama]

Well, at least tried to teach in words if not allways in deeds, preciate the effort and ever more forgivingly that I myself constantly remind me myself that we parents do make mistakes. :)

Anyway, you know, having manners and behaving: "be considerate, speak politely, be generous and forgiving, don't fight, be truthfull, yada yada..." - but not bad advice.

Especially if we think what could be a positive meaning for faith, something we could all share? How about faith in each other? Faith that we are capable of acting the way our mama taught us and treat eachother with respect and human kindness? Faith that we are capable of learning as individuals and together? Faith that we can learn to get along better? Faith in each other, how about that learning a truth like that, making it true?

I must say I get sometimes irritated by the compulsive debate style discussion, very often in the manner of picking a detail and demanding that the detail should be proven and then getting personal whether getting in that game or not. That kind of discussion style certainly has it's place in some academic occations and debate clubs and courts of justice - or not, don't really know - but that's not how people talk to each other. If we wan't to get personal with each other, why not with kindness?

Here's a suggestion. We who like to share our thought and experiences on this forum do an experiment of learning the truth of having faith in each other. Little scientific empiricism, we can try it and see what happens. So I would like to ask each of you, to get to know you better as fellow beings I can have faith in, are you true to yourself and what is your truth?

[patrice]

1. K&R I hope you get some responses worthy of the respect you show in asking.

[rug]

4. Afraid not.

K&R

[cleanhippie]

21. As evidenced by YOUR post.

What a hypocrite.

[skepticscott]

2. The conflating of "faith" in other people

and religious "faith" is an old and tired chestnut here. But this is a discussion board, one of the main objects of which is to get at the truth of what's being discussed. Not so much to sit around and tell each other how wonderful each other is in the wonderfulness of their "faith". That's yet another old chestnut on this board. Getting at the truth involves looking at what's posted and claimed, and examining it to see what parts stand up to scrutiny and what parts don't. We winnow away the false parts and, over time, are left with something better and more useful. Sometimes those parts and large and sometimes they're small. Call that nitpicking in the latter case if you want, but that's how the process works.

And the "tone" argument is the oldest and most tired chestnut here.

[trotsky]

3. What you said.

Some people just don't like having their religious faith discussed on the same level that every other single issue is on DU. Meaning, analyzed critically and without kid gloves. They can't help it - this has been one of religion's greatest self-defense mechanisms since it arose. Shun the non-believers. We used to be executed, but they can't do that anymore. In real life we are ostracized in most communities unless we keep quiet about our lack of belief. On DU, we are attacked for our horrible "tone" and compared to Stalin.

[tama]

6. How about faith in reason?

I just read this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x628423
and the sentence "A supposed faith in reason does not really extend to faith in the best of human nature." stood up. I would like to amend the sentence and reformulate "Faith in reason does not necessarily extend to the faith in the best of human nature, but it sure can". I would like to hear you about what is good in faith in reason and it's relation to human potential.

About the narrative of persecution, I don't know what to say. Reason tells me that asking to "prove it" would lead nowhere, so I don't want to go in that direction. If I understand correctly, the narrative of persecution concerns atheist group identity, and I can accept that is your truth. Can you share your own experiences of being persecuted, and how those experiences have affected "faith in the best of human nature"? How can faith in reason help to cope with or heal from experience and feeling of being persecuted and ostracized?

[trotsky]

7. Is the "faith" you have that a chair will support you when you sit down...

the exact same thing as faith that Jesus died for one's sins?

[tama]

9. No.

What connection, if any, do you see between faith in reason and the expression "he's a reasonable man"?

[skepticscott]

10. Zero. Zip. Nada.

But do keep grasping.

[tama]

12. Grasping what?

Do you know? What do these word mean to you: "It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry."

[skepticscott]

14. Keep grasping for something relevant to religion or theology

Obfuscation won't serve you well here. Nor will veering off on irrelevant tangents.

[trotsky]

11. You have admitted that you are equivocating on the word "faith."

That kind of derails any other dialog. If we aren't accurate with the words we use, how can you expect the honest, respectful discussion you claim to desire?

[tama]

13. Faith. Trust. Confidence.

That is how I equivocate the word "faith". I have faith in reason and I find it reasonable to believe that there is little to lose and lot to win in having faith/trust/confidence in each other, in human potential. Reason tells also that active disbelief in human potential of being able to have faith/trust/confidence in each other can easily become a self-fulfilling prediction.

[trotsky]

15. Three separate words. Each with their own meanings and nuances.

But you are still trying to use them interchangeably. Was your last sentence a dig?

[tama]

17. Your post gave me a smile, thanks :) nt

[trotsky]

19. So changing the tone means smiling while you put someone down.

Got it! Thanks! :)

[tama]

20. It was

just a smile, no put down intended. A baffled smile, wondering for the same reason that I now want to ask you, why did you interprete it as a put down? I'm grasping to understand this... lack of confidence in other people? Of course I too suffer from that, occationally, but more often than that I'm positively surprised by human kindness. It is this relentless contrarian posting style - and attitude? - by you and some other posters that makes me curious, what's behind it and what else is there in you? Do you see me as an enemy that needs to be attacked and defended from on every occations?

[trotsky]

22. I see you as someone who is saying things I disagree with.

Things that I think actually contribute to our political problems rather than solve them.

And when someone can't argue their points and instead goes ad hom, throwing out coy comments about how "contrarian" a poster is, well, what's the point? I just find it hilarious that so often the people who start out asking "why can't we all just get along?" are among the first to throw someone else under the bus.

[Jim__]

5. I wonder how much you would have learned from your mama's words if they came to you as words alone.

If your mama's words were delivered to you over some medium like the internet, words alone, no tone, no facial expression, no body language, no physical contact, my guess is that her words would have meant much less than they did. Our systems of communication have evolved over hundreds of thousands of years, and those systems include words. But, words are only a part, maybe only a small part, of these systems. The internet, limited pretty much to words alone, doesn't seem to be a viable substitute for actual human communication.

As to the question, am I true to myself? I doubt it. One truth of life is that it is a sisyphean struggle whose sole goal is the chance to continue the struggle and whose ultimate outcome is always failure. If I admitted that to myself every morning upon waking, I would never get out of bed. There are other truths in life. One truth is that a smile can make the the entire struggle worthwhile. When I awake in the morning, I get up to go and find that smile. We get to choose our truths, both the ones we acknowledge and the ones we ignore.

[tama]

8. Thanks

No, I don't know any substitute to human touch, a smile, a hug, a kiss. And yes, writing is a new form and especially writing on the internet. I have faith in our ability to learn this form of communication and form of art better and better.

That smile is a good truth, thank you for sharing it with me. :)

[rrneck]

16. My truth

which is to say what I believe in is movement.

We walked out of Africa two million years ago and we've been moving ever since. We move more than just physically. We move intellectually, imaginatively, and emotionally. Movement is so much a part of the human experience that those who are unable to think in terms of movement are considered mentally ill.

We move from fact to feeling and from there back to fact. Good scientists are just as passionate about scientific proof as good ministers are about the faithful leading productive lives.

Movement implies faith. We may sit on a mountain of evidence or with a million others that feel the same way we do but the future in our world and in our hearts will always be uncertain. Without faith, we stop moving lay down and die.

[tama]

18. Heraclitus

is my favourite Greek philosopher. Latin word 'anima' means life, soul, movement. Movement is truth we all share. Thanks.