Muslim faith schools teach 'alien rubbish' says Dawkins

[rug]

8 October 2011 Last updated at 10:55 ET

Muslim faith schools fill children's heads with "alien rubbish" as they continue to teach them creationism is true, atheist Richard Dawkins has said.

In the Times Educational Supplement (TES), the Oxford author said they had a "pernicious influence".

The Muslim Council of Britain said it was unreasonable to expect schools not to teach fundamental theories of faith.

The Department for Education said creationism "should not be taught as scientific fact".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-15226421

Alien?

[LAGC]

1. Richard Dawkins is clearly a bigot.

How dare he speak out against such sacrosanct ideas?

:sarcasm:

[rug]

5. You may want to edit that smiley.

"Occasionally, my colleagues lecturing in universities lament having undergraduate students walk out of their classes when they talk about evolution – this is almost entirely Muslims," he said.

"So I think there's a very, very pernicious influence that is lasting up to the university years. That must be coming from certain schools."

He said that he noticed the "utterly deplorable" effect they were having first hand after visiting a Muslim school in Leicester as part of a documentary he made last year called Faith Schools Menace?

-----

"It's just utterly deplorable. These are now British children who are having their minds stuffed with alien rubbish."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8814298/Richard-Dawkins-attacks-Muslim-schools-for-stuffing-childrens-minds-with-alien-rubbish.html

It may be from the Telegraph but those quotes are attributed to him. He seems as offended by the notion that "British" children are being exposed to "alien" rubbish as by the rubbish itself.

[LAGC]

6. His choice of words was indeed unfortunate...

"Alien" -- that has many negative connotations.

But being critical over the IDEA of creationism being taught -- I see nothing wrong with that.

[darkstar3]

2. In the strictest sense, it is.

It was a religious belief that was already removed from schools because it has no basis in fact, and it's being reintroduced in Muslim schools because their alien traditions (as in originating from somewhere far away from England) include such teaching.

So in the strictest sense, it is rubbish, and it is alien.

Something tells me that including the two words together has something to do with guaranteeing media coverage...

[bluestateguy]

3. I may not be an atheist

But I appreciate that unlike many other atheists, who seem to confine their criticism to Christians, Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens are fair in the criticism of all faiths.

[defendandprotect]

4. Democracy is the enemy of organized patriarchal religion --

the highest privilege of a democracy is the right to free thought, freedom of

conscience, the right to personal conscience ---


Certainly, repetitive religious propaganda taught in religious schools - Muslim

or Christian will interfere with one's creativity and independence.

One needs to understand the true scope of the world -- it's history -- its truths

in order to base one's own creativity in truth --


As for "independence" --- how does teaching young males and females that males are

superior -- and that "god" is a male enrich a female's independence? Or permit a

male to celebrate female independence? Or to cherish the lives of females?

[Deep13]

7. So Dawkins objects to schools lying to their students.

So do I.

[rug]

8. In this case, he specifically objects to Muslim schools lying to British children.

[laconicsax]

11. Do you feel that Muslim schools SHOULD lie to British children?

Should any school lie to any child?

:shrug:

[LeftishBrit]

17. In the context, he means Muslim schools lying to British MUSLIM children

These schools would be almost exclusively attended by Muslims, so that it is not a question of his saying that white English kids are being threatened by foreigners. In fact, he's acknowledging that most Muslim children here are British.

I think he was intemperate in his remarks, but I also don't think that schools, Muslim or Christian, should be teaching creationism in science lessons.

[Deep13]

31. Yes, that was clear from the article. nt

[Goblinmonger]

37. I think he would dislike any school lying to any child.

Certainly this particular instance is about Muslims. I mean, I would get the problem if he said he had no problem with white Christian creationism being taught in schools but not Muslim creationism. He is pretty consistent on this point and I don't think this is bigotry.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

9. An added dimension here is that religious schools in Britain can receive

state support.

[LeftishBrit]

18. Yes

And the context here is that the government are encouraging the growth of academies and free schools (= charter schools in USA), which receive state funding, but may be partly run by parent groups, business firms, religious organizations, etc. This does increase the risk of the state having less educational control over the schools that it funds - a good thing in the view of some libertarian Conservatives; though the schools will still be in principle expected to follow the national curriculum which does *not* include creationism in science lessons.

[Deep13]

35. Well, sure, but in a nation with no seperation of C&S...

I don't see think it matters as much as it would in the USA. I'd be reluctant to equate human rights with property rights by suggesting that the state has bought the right to control the curriculum.

[struggle4progress]

10. Dick's a small man with a talent for spewing plumes of noxious gas: his contempt for others

shows itself at every turn

In my school years, I had two pray-five-times-daily-devout Muslim house-mates. One is an extraordinarily successful MD now. The other got a Ph.D. in physics and now does experimental elementary particle physics

Dawkins is a snobby little product of the British colonial system: he learned to sneer at folk as a white child in Kenya before the country became independent, and he's never outgrown that childish sense of his own superiority

[laconicsax]

12. I see you have nothing of substance to say on the content of the OP.

Do you believe that the untrue things taught in religious schools should be taught to children?

(I thought mods were supposed to refrain from showing any bias or lack of objectivity.)

[struggle4progress]

13. In my understanding, moderators may hold and express opinions.

[laconicsax]

14. And do you have an opinion on the content of the OP?

Do you believe that the untrue things taught in religious schools should be taught to children?

[struggle4progress]

25. Dawkins engages in Islamaphobic propaganda to gain publicity-through-controversy for his new book:

these comments were made during an interview about the book

As usual, Dick doesn't feel much need to discover what people actually think, before attacking them on the basis of his personal stereotypes of their beliefs

But, of course, his comments weren't spontaneous: they're part of a carefully-planned campaign, months in the making, and his "menace" film was preparation for this moment

It's ugly stuff, this stirring up anxiety about a religious minority as a pernicious alien menace; all three of those words are used by Dick

[laconicsax]

30. Still you dodge the content to address the person.

There's a name for that fallacy.

[pennylane100]

15. You are missing the point

Your dislike of Dawkins is irrelevant as is your experience with your Muslim housemates.

The tax payers have a right to expect that the schools they are supporting teach the truth. As far as I know, education in the UK is still compulsory so parents do not have the option of pulling their kids out of science classes because of their religious beliefs. If they do not like it, the can send their kids to private schools and save the taxpayers money that can be spent on providing better schools for the rest of the kids

[Deep13]

32. Ad hominem attack doesn't change the fact that he's right. nt

[humblebum]

16. I hardly see Dawkins' POV as truth. The man is becoming a demagogue. nt

[socialshockwave]

42. God isn't a delusion, Dawkins is a delusion. n/t

[struggle4progress]

19. Dawkins is wrong: faith schools don't blinker children (Erfana Bora | The Guardian | 19 August)

... From a personal perspective, I have taught secondary-level science to pupils in both state and faith schools. I am careful to teach my kids all the science they are required to know for their age group. They are then equipped with all the knowledge and information they need to both pass their exams and make their own minds up about the origins of the universe ...

In my current teaching post at an Islamic faith school, pupils are concurrently taught in Islamic theology lessons that the universe and its contents originate from an omnipotent creator – and the mechanisms for this creative feat are described in some detail in the Qur'an. They are then also taught that much of what is described in the Qur'anic verses has been understood and interpreted in various ways by scholars over the ages.

Pupils then do make their own minds up as to what they believe, but only after some issues are hotly discussed. I get the same questions thrown at me year after year: "Did the world really start with a huge explosion?"; "Where did all the 'stuff' come from in the first place?"; "How did the earliest forms of life come about?"; "Do humans really share a common ancestor with apes?".

The issues surrounding the origin of matter, abiogenesis and anthropogenesis are as relevant to 11-year-olds as they are to research scientists – I find myself explaining that scientific endeavours can provide some robust answers to some of the "how" questions but not the "why" questions – and pupils fill in the gaps themselves. Try telling a child in year seven that the question of where matter comes from is essentially unanswerable and therefore should not be asked. Often the response is "Why not? That's stupid" ...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/aug/19/dawkins-wrong-religion-doesnt-blinker-children

[Deep13]

33. They do if they teach creationism.

Creationism is a lie that is calculated to instill a false world-view in children. Life developed according to purely physical conditions (that we call laws of nature) slowly over a long time with no need of a supernatural influence. Telling children otherwise is a lie.

[struggle4progress]

20. Richard Dawkins claims Muslim schools are teaching 'alien rubbish' (Islamaphobia Watch)

Richard Dawkins claims Muslim schools are teaching 'alien rubbish' ... but says CofE schools are OK
Saturday, October 8, 2011

... Mr Dawkins, former Oxford University professor and evolutionary biologist, made his comments as he spoke to the Times Educational Supplement about the launch of a new science book ...

He said that he noticed the "utterly deplorable" effect they were having first hand after visiting a Muslim school in Leicester as part of a documentary he made last year called Faith Schools Menace? "Every single person I met believes if there is any disagreement between the Koran and science, then the Koran wins," he said. "I spoke to a group of girls, and to a senior science teacher who believes the world is 6,000 years old. It's just utterly deplorable. These are now British children who are having their minds stuffed with alien rubbish."

Mr Dawkins said he was not so worried about the expansion of faith schools if they were the kind that "vaguely" have a kind of Church of England-style assembly. But he was holding "his fire" for the ones that are teaching "total nonsense". "There is a difference between faith schools which just vaguely have a kind of Church of England assembly and faith schools that actually teach nonsense like this school in Leicester," he said ...

Update: Inayat Bunglawala adds: "I think Dawkins may perhaps be getting a bit confused between Muslims and Christian creationists. I have never heard any Muslim say that they believe the world is only 6000 years old – whereas I have seen this claim made by – predominantly American – Christian creationists."

http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/islamophobia-watch/2011/10/8/richard-dawkins-claims-muslim-schools-are-teaching-alien-rub.html

[struggle4progress]

21. Creationism Attack Under UK Muslim Fire (OnIslam)

OnIslam & News Agencies
Sunday, 09 October 2011 10:26

... Sheikh Ibrahim Mogra, from the Muslim Council of Britain, <said> "To expect faith schools not to teach this kind of religious teaching is unreasonable, but I also think it is important for faith schools to teach science to children as well so they are aware of modern day findings and can use the information to ask further questions and strengthen their faith ...

The chairman of Muslims4UK, Inayat Bunglawala, said it was "important faith groups came to terms with evolution" and taught it in a fair manner ...

Of the 590 faith-based secondary schools five are Jewish, two Muslim and one Sikh - the rest are Church of England, Roman Catholic and other Christian faiths.

Last April 2011, Darul Uloom Islamic College boys’ school drew praise for its excellence in combining religious and secular studies while helping develop its students' basic knowledge, skills and attitudes from the Office for Standards in Education, Children's Services and Skills (Ofsted) ...

http://www.onislam.net/english/news/europe/454235-atheist-attacks-uk-muslim-schools.html

[Jim__]

22. I guess Dawkins considers "alien rubbish" to be worse than just plain old rubbish.

Unfortunately Dawkins is turning himself from a respected scientist into a crank.

[edhopper]

23. Attack the character of the man,

rather than the substance of his thoughts and statements.
Hence side stepping the issue.

[rug]

24. The substance of his statement is alien rubbish.

[Goblinmonger]

39. So we should teach creationism to students in science class? n/t

[rug]

48. No, it's ok as long as you preface the lesson by saying, "Here is some alien rubbish".

[Goblinmonger]

49. And you wonder why people think you are a creationist apologist.

You can't even bring yourself to saying that it is complete bullshit.

[rug]

52. I think bigotry of any form is complete bullshit.

Maybe if you were not so busy deflecting the subject you could acknowledge it.

[Goblinmonger]

54. So saying creationism is rubbish is bigotry?

Or is it the "alien" word that does you in? I'm by no means an expert on all things British, but it seems like a culture that has pretty much ditched religion. Now it is being brought back in. Seems like "alien" might be a good word. Don't use the baggage that word has in the US and apply it to someone British.

[rug]

57. You're guessing.

Read his full quotes. He did not leave it there.

It's not quite at the level of "Jewish science" but I'm not waiting to see what happens.

Or you may continue to parse the nuances of the phrase "alien rubbish".

[Goblinmonger]

59. So are you. n/t

[trotsky]

26. They can't help it. It's the only tool they have. n/t

[rug]

27. Rubbish.

(Should I insert alien?)

[Odin2005]

28. I agree with him.

[GodlessBiker]

29. Me, too.

[Deep13]

34. I am astonished that there are apologists for creationism posting here.

"The Muslim Council of Britain said it was unreasonable to expect schools not to teach fundamental theories of faith."

I really don't care what the Muslim Council of Britain says. And they are misusing the word "theory." They have a guess that they believe because they have always believed it. If a fundamental concept of faith is plainly contradicted by a mountain of evidence that supports an actual, incontrovertible scientific theory, then it is a lie to teach it to school children. They only time it would even be appropriate to bring it up is to explain that it was what they previously thought before they knew better.

If this were a case of Evangelicals teaching creationism in an American science class, everyone here would be against it. Instead, the irrational feeling of white guilt and the fear of being identified as among the oppressors make otherwise reasonable people turn a blind eye to what has to be considered a subtle for of child abuse. Frankly, saying it is okay for children to be mentally hobbled by religious bullshit because they are brown or because their parents are Muslims is as racist as 19th century colonialism.

Creationism is a lie.

[edhopper]

36. They have such a visceral reaction to Dawkins that

no matter the merit of his comments, they will still talk against it. Even to the extent of defending creationism.

[trotsky]

41. You nailed it.

Dawkins could say that strawberry ice cream is delicious and people would attack him for being bigoted against vanilla. The proof is right in this thread.

[Goblinmonger]

43. Oh that vanilla bean hating bastard. n/t

[rug]

38. I am astonished that you think anyone here is apologizing for creationism.

Bigotry is a lie per se.

[Deep13]

40. You are doing it now,

All the attempts to change the subject from block-headed teaching of creationism to how-dare-Dawkins-point-it out is a defense of what he is complaining about.

I was going to ask in what way either Dawkins or I are being bigoted, but you and others have already made a feeble effort to do so. That was, as I have stated, the subject of my complaint.

In response to your cryptic closing line, here is something that ought to be obvious:

Lies are lies per se.

[rug]

47. It's his singling out Muslim schools that's news, not creationism.

There is nothing new about attacking creationism.

What is new is calling it alien rubbish.

Defending it is not so unexpected.

[darkstar3]

50. It's nice to know you care to defend observers of other faiths.

I'll be sure to look for you on the two-minute-hate threads focused on Scientology and Mormonism.

[rug]

51. I would respond if either sentence made sense.

[darkstar3]

53. Speaking of making no sense...

[struggle4progress]

44. Jewish schools are not a faith school 'menace'

My local Jewish primary is multicultural and academically excellent, and shows Dawkins is wrong about faith schools

Karen Glaser
guardian.co.uk, Thursday 19 August 2010 07.59 EDT

... But when it comes to faith schools, I think this great humanist is misguided. In the film, he reports that one in three state schools in Britain already has a religious affiliation and that under the coalition's free school system, religious groups are being encouraged to set up more. Dawkins is, unsurprisingly, appalled: faith schools, he claims, indoctrinate and divide children, and bamboozle their parents.

The case for Jewish education isn't really made in the film. Those Jewish schools approached didn't want to participate and the Board of Deputies of British Jews, Anglo-Jewry's representative body, declined an interview. In Dawkins's words: "My reputation precedes me." I, meanwhile, was happy to talk – as a journalist who has written about faith schools and as a parent whose daughter attends one – but my interview didn't make the final programme.

My defence of Jewish education is heavily based on my experience of one particular Jewish school: Simon Marks Jewish Primary, in north London. That experience may well be atypical, but, I would argue, is still germane. For the government's desire to see a new wave of faith schools comes with an important caveat: these new institutions must be inclusive. In which case, I think this socially mixed Orthodox Jewish primary, with its relaxed approach to admissions, is its model in waiting ...

That diverse community fares very well academically at Simon Marks. There aren't, for example, too many inner-city primaries offering after-school clubs in Latin and verbal reasoning – or, for that matter, too many schools where a quarter of pupils have English as a second language but that are in the top 6% for English Sats ...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/aug/19/dawkins-wrong-jewish-schools

[darkstar3]

45. Many Jews are completely secular, as are their schools.

There are many Jewish schools in the Saint Louis area, where I used to live until recently, that I wouldn't consider "faith schools".

[struggle4progress]

46. Faith Schools Menace? Richard Dawkins gets into a tiz about nothing

By William Dove | August 20, 2010 9:07 PM GMT

... Now I happened to go to a faith school in the 90's and early 00's. It was a Catholic school, but despite this should I ever come face to face with the Dawkins inquisition I can safely say that "I am not now, nor have I ever been, a member of the Catholic Church".

In my experience faith schools are nothing like the unscientific, sectarian hotbeds of indoctrination that Dawkins suggests.

At my school religious education was compulsory up to and including GCSE level, as were the three sciences. During those science lessons we were taught by some excellent teachers, one a good Catholic who managed to teach us physics and chemistry without resorting to the Book of Genesis and another who taught biology, including evolution by natural selection, with a passion that may rival Dawkins' own.

In our RE lessons we were never taught anything that contradicted what our science teachers had told us. I don't think I ever heard the word "creationism" and certainly not "intelligent design" ...

http://uk.ibtimes.com/articles/44450/20100820/faith-schools-menace-richard-dawkins-gets-into-a-tiz-about-nothing.htm

[Goblinmonger]

55. And that proves that it isn't being taught in Muslim schools, how?

Why don't you set the parameters of your Google search to something a little more recent?

[Goblinmonger]

56. I'm sure your moderation of anything in this thread

will be completely objective given your clear feelings about Dawkins.

[darkstar3]

58. A point readily apparent long before the Icon of Power appeared.

[struggle4progress]

60. As a general rule, I abstain from moderating threads in which I have posted

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ButterflyBlood]

62. Dawkins is an asshole, but he is absolutely correct here

Muslims teaching creationism isn't anymore acceptable than fundie Christians teaching it.