Welcome, Atheists. But, Really, Why Are You Here?

[rug]

Eliot Daley
Posted: 10/17/11 02:26 PM ET

As a relative newcomer to posting articles in the Religion section of HuffPost, I've been struck by the number of "Comments" posted in response to my articles by people who are quick and loud to proclaim their atheism and the non-existence of God -- and equally quick and loud to disdain the rest of us who don't share their perspective.

What's up with this, anyhow? I mean, really, what are you doing cruising the Religion department?

Actually, I don't ask out of disrespect. I ask out of genuine curiosity. But en route to whatever comments this post will stimulate from the atheists among us, I guess I'll share my own thoughts and speculations.

To begin with, I am impressed by how often certain atheists' posts make knowledgeable references to elements of faith -- e.g., creeds, tenets, customs -- which would suggest these are disaffected veterans of church or synagogue life who, for some reason or other, are now vigorously renouncing earlier foolishness and still working at putting some distance between themselves and their own (or their parents') faith.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eliot-daley/why-atheists-read-religion-page_b_1005417.html

:popcorn:

[NMMNG]

1. So atheists are just like deaf people

Who through their particular disability are incapable of seeing/hearing/feeling/discerning God. What a condescending pile of crap.

[darkstar3]

11. Just another way to say "shut up, atheist!"

This kind of crap shows up far too often.

[NMMNG]

12. Of course if we were to say

their ability to "hear" god was just a sign of schizophrenia we'd be big meanies.

[David Sky]

15. I think about 3 people running for President claim that now........

and religious Dems who are on this forum would see right through THOSE claims, but not their OWN claims that THEIR God is the one true God, and they know about this for "personal" reasons which they cannot state here.

But Perry, Bachmann, and Cain are fakes.........yup!

[NMMNG]

19. "Other ways of knowing"

Like that little voice that speaks through the TV set when it's off, for example.

[David Sky]

22. I don't turn my TV on until Keith at 8 PM... but I'm SURE I hear

his voice on my computer sometimes... am I crazy???? LOL

ANSWER: NO I'm a progressive Dem with a Youtube subscription to his Current Channel!

Rational explanation!

[demosincebirth]

28. Did they day that? You are assuming, right?

[demosincebirth]

29. I'll print that and carry ii with me. Tremendous!

[darkstar3]

30. You're saying Perry, Bachmann, and Cain haven't claimed to talk to God?

You're saying that at least Bachmann and Cain haven't claimed that God speaks to them personally?

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

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[onehandle]

2. Good question. And on Apple blogs, anti-Apple people love to inject their opinion.

They like to 'give up using Apple products' loudly and proudly.

Good question indeed.

[David Sky]

6. Had you noticed, that the new Apple 4S i-Phone adopted so many features that

Google Android phones have had for over a year?

You really want Apple to be un-challenged, never adapt or improve, just like your religious beliefs?

OKAY!

[Tunkamerica]

16. There's a connection there somewhere... people who buy things despite the evidence

[onehandle]

27. What evidence is that? nt

[LAGC]

18. Probably the same reason anti-gun folks like to post in the Guns forum.

n/t

[David Sky]

24. There is a GUNS forum? What do those folks do? Compare (cocked) weapons?

Amazing, in the 21'st century, after all we have learned from history, from every other branch of knowledge

We have a religion forum where 3 or 4 people defend some religion, and convince no one, and a GUN forum ... now what happens there.. do people cyber shoot their guns?

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[David Sky]

3. Shouldn't you answer the question first? Why are YOU here, and not out doing your...

religious things?

Caring for the sick, making the poor worthy, turning swords into plowshares?

I went to a religious school and learned religion, I went to a secular school and learned how to do more than just talk, I learned to do something for my fellow man. I am now retired, and disabled, and my fellow man, religious and otherwise, does something for me, mostly for pay, but sometimes, just sometimes, because a human being wants to give of themselves, not for their religious beliefs, but for their sense of who they are. Drive me to a symphony a couple times a year, take me to lunch at my favorite restaurant on my birthday, come by at 5 AM when I have fallen and don't need a fireman, or a doctor, just someone to help me up.

Why are YOU here? What are YOU doing in your life to make you feel better for having actually done it? And why do you need a religion to feel that way?

[rug]

7. This is my penance.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

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[rug]

9. i hope you washed your hands before typing that.

[David Sky]

10. Penance is only for the sinner. And only for CERTAIN believers.....most people

of various faiths can actually learn to DO SOMETHING as a penance...if you MUST frame it that way.

Other religions simply offer you a chance to make your life worthwhile, but I guess you are not a follower of one of those religions, and claiming to be doing penance, well, kind of makes it look like you want to be seen as "suffering".

"None of God's creatures suffer if they know the Lord" I was taught that somewhere. You didn't learn that yet?

[NMMNG]

14. Abusing atheists is your penance?

What do you do for fun, kick puppies?

[David Sky]

21. Something like that! He seems intent on making his fellow man feel worse than

he does. We called that sadistic impulses in my psych class.

[rug]

36. Oh, am I making you feel bad?

Tsk.

[rug]

35. "Abusing atheists"?

Read through this thread.

And the read this one: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x309436

Thin skins must be endemic with hypocrites.

[bluerum]

4. Oh. Jesus wept.

[OnTheOtherHand]

5. "I ask out of genuine curiosity."

'But in the meantime, you don't mind if I dump this load, do you?'

Not really a great example of open-armed dialogue, I have to say.

[David Sky]

13. Yup!

Just someone asserting their pretended ignorance in order to score on a message board.

Religion is nothing more than a way to "pretend" to be ignorant of the facts, and feel good about it.

[OnTheOtherHand]

64. religion is lots of things

I'm sorry if that observation is too nuanced for the present thread.

[DesertFlower]

20. i have no problem with anyone's religion or lack of

as long as they don't try to push it on me.

[David Sky]

25. Some would see your statement there as a very.........

militant ATHEIST statement, and object to such militancy from an Atheist!

Just be ready!

[DesertFlower]

41. i don't think it's militant.

so far no one else thinks so either.
:shrug:

[tortoise1956]

68. Agreed

Personal beliefs are just that, personal. It should be kept that way. Unfortunately, there are way too many people out there who seem to think that if they holler loud and use personal attacks, others will come around to their way of thinking. It's not limited to one side, although the religious hypocrites such as Jerry Falwell, Oral Roberts and Pat Robertson had the early-innings lead...

[Tunkamerica]

23. I really think on a public message board about religion only pastors/rabbis/priests etc. should be

able to comment. Actually, now that I think about it, it should really only be the deities themselves.

And aren't most religions kind of known for saying that all the other religions are false? How is this any different? Can't take, but you can dish out?

[David Sky]

26. Yes, I agree, only GODS should be posting here!

And, since I am posting.............................

[MrModerate]

31. So, the author of this piece either 1) doesn't understand atheism at all . . .

or, 2) is pretending that he doesn't. Either way, his point of view is disingenuous.

I'm not sure either why atheists hang around religion blogs, unless they happen to be genuinely concerned about the deleterious effects of religion on their fellow human beings or on themselves. There's also that thing about being treated as a despised class by religious people that might be driving some of that behavior.

The notion that ex-religionists may be rejecting religion more than they reject god is conceivable, I suppose, but Daley seems to think that — James O'Keefe-like — he's honed in on the dirty secret at the core of atheism, when he's just speculating.

Let me speculate in turn: ex-religionists reject both god and religion, for pretty obvious reasons. After all, if your organization exists solely to propagate fairy tales, it's almost certainly going fall short of meeting genuine human needs. Fairy tales treated as real also offer a million different ways for institutional abuse to emerge, which I think the last couple of decades of revelations about (just as one example) profound wickedness at the heart of world Catholicism have made blatantly obvious.

I only pick on Catholicism because its sins are so baroque and the attempts to cover up so obscene and ineffective. Feel free to replace with your own favorite sect.

Daley's characterization of some atheists as saying "I hate god because he didn't give me a pony" is a weak and stupid argument, and he should be ashamed of himself for trotting it out. The absence of a prayed-for pony is certainly one way children set themselves on a path to liberating themselves from religion as they mature intellectually, but I wouldn't think it's meaningful in adults' lives. With regard to natural vs supernatural, I wasn't aware that any religion ascribed the doings of their god(s) as "natural" in this context. Whether I have the necessary information to tell the difference between science and magic really isn't relevant here. Any sufficiently advanced technology (to paraphrase Arthur C. Clarke) is indistinguishable from magic . . . and that fact is meaningless in determining whether there's magic loose in the world or not.

Chalk up another red herring for Mr. Daley.

And advances in our understanding of how the human brain works — as in the "conflict" between rational and irrational — are again irrelevant to Daley's argument. Belief in the actuality of fictional beings is not one of those things that's at some imaginary border between rational and irrational — that's flatly an emotional point of view, and hence "irrational."

And thanks, Mr. Daley, for telling me that I'm "deaf" to god, and that's why I can't hear him. I'll go all the way: not only am I deaf to god, but I can't see, taste, smell, measure, communicate, or experience any effect whatsoever from "god." And as a practical matter, the only sensible thing to do is to live my life as if there were no god (and no white crows, leprechauns, or Nigerian bank managers wanting to make me rich). Thanks for clearing that up.

As for myself, I don't haunt religious sites looking to pick a fight. I consider the truly religious unreachable by reason so I don't even try. But when they insist on making public policy based on their favorite fairy stories, or insist that my society's leaders all profess obeisance to some fictional character or the other, then I push back.

Believe what you want, but don't try to use your beliefs as an excuse to claim ownership of the public square. From my point of view, there's no there there, and those of us who don't care to share your stories resent your assumption that we're missing out on anything but a shared delusion, and that your delusion earns you superior moral, ethical, or societal position.

[David Sky]

32. Ummmm MAYBE because Atheism is the way of the future? like, logic, facts, science....

and just plain repudiation of silly mythological dogma that enslaves and downgrades some human beings so that others can get rich?

I'd say that's a GREAT reason for Atheists to talk about religion.

NO?

[rug]

37. Oh brother, what echo chamber site did you get that claptrap from?

"the way of the future". :rofl:

[Tunkamerica]

54. You're right.

Christianity is the future. You can tell by how popular it keeps getting. Spreading the word. By hook or by crook. By priest or by politician. Definitely the future of mankind is a world where everyone believes in a god who inspires such love and compassion in his followers as evidenced by the last 2000 years of Christian history.

[rug]

61. You must send me the link to the place you're getting this crap.

[David Sky]

58. Asside from the FACTS that the number of atheists and non-believers is

growing in many western democratic nations, I guess the contrast between mythological dogma from the bronze age and modern science is really getting your panties into a wad.

Christianity has had a long run, about time for it to go the way of the Greek myths, something we read about, mentioned in literature as imagery, but really of no practical use to modern mankind. That must REALLY get you angry!

[rug]

63. I'm bemused.

So much half-baked anthropology, so little time.

[darkstar3]

33. I refer you to this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x309005#309009

Advocates of silence refuse to admit that religion permeates the everyday lives of all Americans, and therefore find it easy to tell non-believers that they have no place in the discussion.

Your blindness will not bring about my silence.

[rug]

38. "Your blindness will not bring about my silence."

Such melodrama.

[darkstar3]

39. And neither will your mockery.

[rug]

40. Of course not. I know how you eschew mockery in discusssions.

[Tunkamerica]

55. Ad hominem? is that cool now?

[rug]

60. It;s the lingua franca of R/T.

[Deep13]

42. For me in this forum, to talk about religion and theology. nt

[Odin2005]

43. HuffPo, the same site that has the quackmeister Deepak Chopra as a columnist, LOL!!!

[rug]

44. It's got this too.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/atheism

[NMMNG]

45. There's a reason it's been dubbed FluffPo

:shrug:

[trotsky]

46. In other words, "Fuck off, atheists."

With love in Jesus,
Liberal, "tolerant" believers.

Atheists have every right to comment on issues pertaining to religion and theology, and you will not silence us.

[NMMNG]

47. Same shit, different day

I have to wonder why nobody ever asks why so many humans are in the pets forum. :shrug:

[Name removed]

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[rrneck]

51. Wjy are we here?

To fuck with you.

:evilgrin:

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

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[rug]

59. With who?

[Iggo]

53. Fuck off, Eliot Daley.

[Jim__]

56. Great article! The response here is quite amusing. - n/t

[trotsky]

57. You're an atheist, Jim. So why are you here? n/t

[Goblinmonger]

62. Why do liberals

post on threads about conservatives?

[LeftishBrit]

65. Atheists can be interested in religion for all kinds of reasons

It is very important historically, culturally and philosophically. There are atheists who study for advanced degrees in theology departments at universities, for just this reason.

Also, it is important politically. Religion is used in the service of all kinds of political causes, sometimes positively, all too often negatively. When religion is used to promote right-wing policies, or defeat liberal/left candidates, or to restrict the rights of women and minorities, or to discriminate against or even actively punish (in some places and times, by the death sentence) nonbelievers and 'wrong' believers, or to start and pursue wars and other forms of violence - then it is a matter of concern to all. And atheists should not be denied the right to comment.

I don't post on Huffington Post, so can't say if there are trolls there. But I think that the idea that atheists shoudl not be allowed to comment on religion is a dangerous one. You would not normally say that women should not be able to comment on men, or that non-Muslims should not be able to comment on Islam, or that poor people should not be able to comment on big business, or that right-wingers should not be able to comment on left-wing ideology (however much I might wish that they wouldn't!) - so why should atheists be the one group who can't comment on a set of beliefs/ideologies/cultural practices that they do not share? At best, this is to exclude and therefore discriminate against one perspective. At worst, it marginalizes a minority group (at least in the United States), and then prevents them from commenting on their marginalization.

At any rate, if atheists are to be excluded from commenting on religion, then the converse should also be true: the religious should not comment on atheism (I'm not saying they shouldn't; I prefer for all to have freedom of speech; but it should be the same rule for everyone!) And they do. If at one extreme a government punishes 'blasphemers' with death and forbids education for girls on religious grounds; at middling, a relatively moderate president can say that atheists aren't full citizens, without real repercussions, and televangelists and mega-churches direct voters to right-wing candidates; and at the other end of the scale, the political-religious threat is so mild and attenuated that you hardly notice it most of the time - until it's *your* MP who is defeated by a Tory as a result a smear campaign from religious pro-lifers, and one of *your* nearby churches that is apparently legally taking part in faith-healing that claims to have cured conditions such as paralysis and cancer (just heard about that last week!) - then the actions of some religious people and institutions are affecting everyone, and no group should be excluded from comment. And yes, exactly the same applies to non-religious ideologies, from communism to worship of the free market.

[trotsky]

66. A most excellent post.

Thanks, LB!

[tortoise1956]

69. Great post, except for one point...

Men should not be allowed to comment on women - it's WAY too dangerous!:evilgrin:

Seriously, you hit the proverbial nail right on the head. If an argument is limited to one side, it's just a love-fest. Besides, how else do you learn about other ways of life and/or beliefs unless you listen to what their adherents - and opponents - have to say?

[Taverner]

67. Because we are your messiahs, theists

:P

[tortoise1956]

70. All Hail Taverner

Evil Non-God of the Blogosphere! Refuse to believe in him or he will strike you dead!:scared:

Seriously, good to hear from you again.

[Simo 1939_1940]

71. As a former Catholic altar boy who pranked the priest

during service by playing "Mary had a little lamb" on the chimes, I'd just like to say that I was likely atheist/apatheist from an early age, and although I witnessed many bad acts by priests and nuns I don't believe that these events "pushed me away" from religion.

Why am a cruising the religion zone? Ended up here by mistake looking for the Atheist forum!

[deacon_sephiroth]

72. The same could be said for Theists

I mean.... those people talk to GOD! Why would they EVER stoop to talking to little old me again. After even a brief exchange with true omnipotence, their wisdom and enlightenment would surely sore to a level unconceivable by the rest of us.

I thought this was an existential question at first :p

[panzerfaust]

73. Because i am fascinated by religious belief and

i try very hard to understand it.

Understand it, so that i can do my part to keep it from, once again, flooding the world in oceans of misery and blood.

It is not just the Dominionists and their ilk who frighten me, but the entire sea in which they swim. The sea of irrationality, xenophobia, intolerance, violence, and willingness to impose beliefs upon others by force is that which, at times, literally keeps me up nights.

One might look at why Providence, Rhode Island was founded ... this little bit of history illustrates what "Religious Freedom" meant to our Sainted Pilgrim Founders: The power to force everyone else to accept their view of True Christianity.


The Godly, reasoning with those with whom they agree not.


Religion gives simple answers to complex, to unanswerable problems. In doing so it can bring comfort to an individual - but only at the cost of the destruction of reason, the suppression of knowledge, the repression of freedom.

I wonder that so many people are willing to make that trade. I try to understand why.