Ask the Religion Experts: Is religious persecution declining or growing

[rug]

October 23, 2011 9:11 AM

JACK MCLEAN is a Bahá’í scholar, teacher, essayist and poet published in the fields of spirituality, Bahá’í theology and poetry.

No one could answer today’s question accurately without some in-depth research and comparison to another historical time-frame — i.e., now as compared to then. So I don’t really know. But any religious persecution is too much persecution.

The Middle-East is not a safe place for religious minorities, be they Jewish, Christian, Sunni, Shia, Sufi, Bahá’í, Zoroastrian, Ahmaddiyih and so forth. Copts are assaulted and murdered with impunity in Egypt. Brave Shahbaz Bhatti, Pakistan’s former Minister for Minorities, was assassinated on March 2, 2011 for advocating the repeal of Islam’s blasphemy laws, a capital offence. They were allegedly being used to persecute his Christian co-religionists. ‘Abdu’l-Rahman escaped death in Afghanistan (2006) for converting to Christianity, but only through direct intervention of western government officials — including Prime Minister Harper, Pope Benedict XVI and then U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice — to Afghan President Hamid Karzai. The list of current religious persecution is too long to continue here.

Bahá’ís are well acquainted with systematic persecution. As Iran’s largest religious minority, Bahá’ís in the Islamic Republic have been subject to unwarranted arrests, false imprisonment, harassment, beatings, torture, rapes, murder, kidnapping, forced marriages, persecution of school children, unjustified executions, confiscation and destruction of property, denial of employment, government benefits, civil rights and access to higher education. At least 100 Bahá’ís are currently prisoners of conscience in Iran. Some are in dire need of medical attention.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/canada-in-afghanistan/Religion+Experts+religious+persecution+declining+growing/5594370/story.html

[Angry Dragon]

1. Yes

the religious are persecuting more and more people

[LuvNewcastle]

2. +1

There seems to be a constant there. Which ever religion holds sway in an area has little or no tolerance for the beliefs of others.

[darkstar3]

36. Very true.

[Jim__]

3. How is religious persecution different from other types of persecution?

Obviously, I mean outside of the question of the reason for the persecution. Is religious persecution worse than, say, discrimination against ethnic minorities? Racial bigotry? Does it make sense to address each generic type of persecution differently, or can we be more effective by strongly opposing all types of discrimination? I think, clearly, we need to address individual cases of discrimination on a case by case basis; but then we should give it a specific label, for instance, the Chinese discrimination against Tibetan Buddhists.

[cleanhippie]

4. Only if one expands the definition of "persecution" to include speaking up against irrational belief

I mean, if one has to include that expressing one's opinion that religious belief may be irrational and sometimes dangerous, then yes, "persecution" is increasing, at least here in the US.

But without that dishonest expansion of the definition of "persecution", then very few (and most of those include NON-believers) are actually being "persecuted" here in the US.

For educational purposes. let's review the Websters definition of "persecute", shall we...

to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict; specifically : to cause to suffer because of belief


Yeah, pretty sure it's mostly NON-believers who are suffering (legally, that is) at the hands of believers in this country. However, one might argue that our "liberal" believers are ALSO "suffering" due to the actions of the Religious Right zealots and fundamentalists.


If only we, the non-believers and the "liberal" believers could find away to come together to nullify the power of the Religious Right in this country....but that would mean a serious reflection of beliefs...and that would lead to some uncomfortable questions...

[rug]

5. Please, share your suffering.

[cleanhippie]

6. Here is but a short list from one source...

http://ffrf.org/legal/challenges/ongoing-lawsuits/


And some of the victories for equal treatment...

http://ffrf.org/legal/challenges/



But I am sure you will dismiss this with some glib remark...

[cleanhippie]

15. I guess you are satisfied with my examples then, rug?

Your lack of objection seems to indicate that you are in agreement with my previous statement.

[rug]

18. It's rather mild compared to what they're talking about.

"unwarranted arrests, false imprisonment, harassment, beatings, torture, rapes, murder, kidnapping, forced marriages, persecution of school children, unjustified executions, confiscation and destruction of property, denial of employment, government benefits, civil rights and access to higher education"

Which is not to say that it's trivial. I suppose the West in general, and the U.S., in particular, is more quick to label things persecution compared to other places. It reminds me of a picture from OWs in a GD thread. "You may be part of the 99% but to the rest of the world you're still part of the 1%." If I find the picture i'll add it.

[cleanhippie]

20. Mild, yes, but persecution nonetheless.

And while I agree wholeheartedly with your post

Which is not to say that it's trivial. I suppose the West in general, and the U.S., in particular, is more quick to label things persecution compared to other places. It reminds me of a picture from OWs in a GD thread. "You may be part of the 99% but to the rest of the world you're still part of the 1%." If I find the picture i'll add it.

it just goes to show there is relativity to everything.


But lets not kid ourselves; what christians in this country call "persecution" is anything but, and it makes the "mild" persecution that non-believers of christianity face in this country seem profound by comparison, no?

[rug]

23. Overall, theists and atheists both are doing fairly well in this country, relatively speaking.

Which makes much of the discussion in here look like kindergarteners arguing over pudding.

BTW, here's the picture:

[okasha]

71. Why, just yesterday

the family took a picnic to an atheist-burning in the public square. :sarcasm: The fact is, most atheists are white, male, heterosexual, well-educated and financially well-off. In other words, taken as a whole, they're one of the most privileged sectors of the American population. They lack privilege in only one social dimension and react with the very privileged's anger at that lack.

[beam me up scottie]

7. "In America, home of the free, the bravest of its citizens are atheists, its most vilified minority"

at least according to one of the authors, Kevin Smith,

who is on the board of directors for the Centre for Inquiry, Canada’s premier venue for humanists, skeptics and freethinkers.


"Timing is everything." Giordano Bruno was a freethinker, a voracious reader of forbidden books and one who dared question Christian doctrine. His most critical issue, however, was being alive during the Roman Inquisition. Accused by church authorities as a heretic, he was burned at the stake in 1600.

If Bruno were alive today, his books would be on bestseller lists and he’d be packing them in at lectures. He would still take a lot of heat for his views, but fire wouldn’t necessarily be part of the equation.

***

It was a bold man who took the first bite out of religion, but in recent years there have been an increasing number of us who have committed that primal sin — to question belief.

Persecution of non-believers for challenging religion has been as vicious as religious persecution between those of faith, and the attacks against us are growing.

Apostasy is still considered a serious crime in certain Middle Eastern countries where, if I visited, I’d end up coming home in cargo. In America, home of the free, the bravest of its citizens are atheists, its most vilified minority. There are still democracies, including Canada, where if you swear at God, instead of allegiance to Him, you can be charged with blasphemy.

Funny how you left that part out of your excerpt.

Including it (or at least alluding to it) would have made this an excellent topic to be discussed by all of the participants in this forum.



Giordano Bruno, one bad ass dude.

[cleanhippie]

8. Hey, you are revealing the agenda, man!

If you point out the obvious hypocrisy like that, how can the agenda ever be advanced?

[beam me up scottie]

9. oops! So sorry.

That's what happens to good atheists when they move in the buy-bull belt, we become BAD atheists. :)

[cleanhippie]

10. No, you are not bad, you're "militant!"

[beam me up scottie]

11. To the scarred veterans of this forum,

being called "militant" is like a medal of honour.

:hi:

[PassingFair]

12. And here I thought she was a "fundamentalist" atheist!

These rational people are so slippery!

[beam me up scottie]

13. That too!

And uppity as well, let's not forget uppity!

:hug:

[Iggo]

14. Oh, we're definitely uppity.

No question about that.

[cleanhippie]

16. Militant, uppity, and a fundamentalist. But hey, thats my opinion, and nothing more.

[beam me up scottie]

17. Hey there! I just put my latest HRC bumper-sticker on my kayak.

The fish and other critters won't notice, but I feel good about it. :)

[rug]

21. What "obvious hypocrisy"? I can't wait for your answer!

Alert your tag team.

[cleanhippie]

22. The hypocrisy of christians that claim persecution when in fact it is THEY who are the persecutors..

along with the attempts to distort that fact with selective editing.

No tag team required.

[rug]

24. I see the hypocrisy on both sides.

No search required.

[cleanhippie]

66. Of course you do, believers usually see what they choose to see.

Its part of the membership package.

[rug]

67. There's the first non sequitur of the day.

[cleanhippie]

68. There's the first supporting evidence of the day.

[rug]

69. Ibid.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beam me up scottie]

26. TAG!

Don't believe the rumours about the EAC, there are no black helicopters over your house...repeat: there are no black helicopters over your house...

Has it ever occurred to you that your posts might be offensive to many of the atheists in his "tag team"?

And that that's the reason we seem to respond in unison?

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beam me up scottie]

33. Yeah, see the thing is I've been gone for months.

And since I didn't even have enough money to buy my star until recently, I never saw that post.

Sad to see you stoop to that level, rug.

[rug]

34. Sad to see it was written.

Even sadder to see you in denial.

Of course it's easier to write about black helicopters than to acknowledge what's in front of your face.

[beam me up scottie]

37. What *exactly* am I in denial about?

Do a search of my posts if you don't believe me. You seem to find digging for dirt easier than giving me the benefit of the doubt.

Not to mention "tag-teaming" or "rallying the troops" is against the rules. You should try reading all of them.

[Goblinmonger]

43. Do you not get the context of that post

or are you being deliberately obtuse?

[rug]

48. It's not hard to miss.

[Goblinmonger]

42. Wow, Really?

I wonder what I could find if I stalked around the religious groups. Grow up.

And I alerted on that post, btw. Nice call out.

[rug]

49. Really.

Two rule violations.

Tag team. Boasting about alerts.

Thy don't you alert on your own post, speaking of callouts.

And how does a member of DU "stalk" a public DU group.

Maybe you shoiuld grow up and break our of the he man theist haters club, which is how you see it.

[Goblinmonger]

51. Is there anything in that post that indicates at all

that there was a planned tag team? No. It was posted after the fact as a vent.

Then alert on me if you want. You clearly read it at the time, so why not alert.

Yeah, I hate theists. That's it. I'll have to let one of my best friends that's a RCC priest that our friendship is over.

[rug]

52. Uh huh.

[Goblinmonger]

53. yeah huh

[rug]

19. Four paragraph rule.

But you knew that.

Funny how you left out his example of losing a booking at a country club as a modern example of repression. You must get more mileage out of Bruno.

[beam me up scottie]

25. You want a modern example of repression?

How about the fact that the Catholic Church got all kinds of love for pseudo-apologizing to Galileo (who got to live), but not to Giordano Bruno who was burned alive for his principles.

They never even fucking acknowledged that he was RIGHT.

His death may mean nothing to you, but to ME, it was one of the most atrocious murders the Church ever committed.

[Leontius]

27. What was he RIGHT about?

[beam me up scottie]

28. Dude, I live a long way from civilization, I have dial-up internet.

Forgive me if this comes across as rude, but please Google it yourself.

Thank you.

*on edit, you can search my journal if that's easier, I think I have a post or two dedicated to him.

[rug]

32. A failure to apologize is "a modern example of repression"?

:rofl:

Er, excuse me . . . that was horrible. Shame on them.

[beam me up scottie]

35. The pope pardoned Galileo in 1992 and have ignored repeated pleas to do the same for Bruno.

Seems pretty recent to me.

And if it's too subtle for you, try imagining our government apologizing to one Native American tribe for genocide while ignoring all of the others.

Yes, shame on them and shame on you for making light of it.




*crap, edit for spelling.

dammit, twice. time for some caffeine

[rug]

38. Genocide?

Man, come on back from wherever the hell you are.

[beam me up scottie]

39. Yes, Virginia,the United States DID commit genocide against Native Americans.

I thought everyone knew that.

You're slipping.

[rug]

40. True but I don't think Giordano Bruno had anything to do with it.

[beam me up scottie]

41. Apologizing to the scientist they let live but not for the one they roasted is the same thing.

Fascinating.

I've never run into anyone who could so casually dismiss the murder of Giordano Bruno.

And how about all those women they tortured, eh? And the mass murder of Jews! What a laugh riot!

[rug]

47. Torturing women? The holocaust?

My, my. I wonder where we'd end up if I mentioned Jan Hus or Savanarola.

[beam me up scottie]

50. Jeez, rug, why so cold?

When I posted here before I thought you enjoyed the back and forth.

Are you really that impervious to the suffering caused by the Church?

[laconicsax]

54. I imagine that spot's all scar tissue or heavily calloused by now.

The RCC simply has so much that needs to be excused and defended, it's bound to stop being a sensitive spot after a while.

[beam me up scottie]

55. I guess all my friends left the Church before that could happen.

I was raised with catholics, hell I sleep with one every night, as soon as their parents stopped forcing them to attend they bailed.

[rug]

57. Would you care to identify whose spot?

[laconicsax]

58. Don't be coy, it really doesn't suit you. n/t

[rug]

62. I'm not the one posting sub rosa.

[laconicsax]

64. There's no secret here. n/t

[rug]

56. Not at all. I'm not impervious to bullshit either.

[laconicsax]

59. You wear that fact like a badge of honor. n/t

[rug]

61. And now you've gotten some on it.

Tsk.

[laconicsax]

65. It's a pitfall of posting on the Internet. n/t

[beam me up scottie]

60. If that's how you want it to be,

bring it.

[rug]

63. Ok George.

[NMMNG]

29. I've always liked this one

BTW, it's nice to see you back, BMUS. :hi:

[beam me up scottie]

30. Me too.

Nice to be back, especially among liberal friends! :hi:

Living down here will end up killing me, I just know it...

[Goblinmonger]

44. I second the nice to see you back.

Probably a little sad to see that things in R/T haven't changed all that much, huh?

[beam me up scottie]

45. Yeah. Believe it or not I missed it :)

As contentious as this place is, trying to function in a blood red state surrounded by bigots is much worse.

I was thinking about you whenever I heard your state mentioned in the news, so sorry teachers like you have to be collateral damage. How horrible that your service was so diminished and that you were attacked by your fellow citizens.

:hug:

[Goblinmonger]

46. Thanks.

Last spring sucked a lot. Things aren't great for education here, yet, but at least some of the outward attacking has subsided a little bit. And if you are ever in need of a star again, you just let me know.

[deacon_sephiroth]

72. I don't wish to ask the "religion experts" anything

after all, what are "experts" in self-dilusion going to tell anyone? I'd rather ask a psychologist if I needed advice on that topic.