"Religion is like sex...you can't suppress it"

[Jim__]

An very short interview with the somewhat iconoclastic John Gray. An excerpt:

So what is the purpose of religion? To tell important stories? You’ve written about the value of ritual and practice.

The rituals give a structure and a pattern to life, regardless of the belief. When asked about which religion to follow, the Dali Lama said, ‘Follow the one that suits you’. I think that’s absolutely wonderful. Religions do contain myths which can be more or less truthful. That is to say, they can address fundamental features of human experience. Some myths are deeper than other myths – they appeal to more commonly occurring, profound experiences. In that respect, religion has more common with art and poetry. You can’t falsify a painting. But you can judge a painting as being better or worse. You can say, ‘This is weak because it doesn’t get to the depths’. What religion seeks is meaning, rather than explanation. The interest served by science is predominately one of control – theories which help give us a handle on the physical world. Neither give us access to any absolute point of view; neither penetrate into the true nature of things.

...

We seem to find it very difficult to escape myths. Would it be foolish to think science offers an escape?

In the 20th century, if you belonged to the French communist party, for example, it would permeate your life – you would belong to a trade union, you’d go to meetings all the time, it would give you structure, and the story associated with it would give meaning to your life. There was a narrative in which you and your fellows would prevail in the long run. Life acquires meaning. People who hold very tightly to myths, including modern secular myths; political and economic myths. They won’t give them up, even once they are falsified by experience. If you’re inside a myth it seems like fact, like science.

Some of the worst things done in the 20th century were carried out by people who thought they were implementing science. The Nazis can be distinguished from previous bigots because most of them believed their racism was backed up by science – their bogus science gave their genocidal projects a kind of imagined authority. So although it’s not the fault of science, forms of science have become a vehicle for new myths of progress.

[bananas]

1. Yup. nt

[trotsky]

2. Who wants to suppress it?

Oh, yeah. Those straw men atheists that people like Gray are more comfortable arguing against.

[bananas]

6. You must be new here.

Denial - it's not just a river in Egypt!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1985526

[beam me up scottie]

8. So Gray wrote this bigoted screed in response to an anonymous post on DU in 2004?

:rofl:

[bananas]

10. Denial and evasion - that's the "rational atheist" way to have a discussion.

Yeah ok right whatever you say boss!
:rofl:

[beam me up scottie]

15. Rational or fundamentalist? Y'all really need to make up your minds.

Have you got any real citations from DU'ers who want to outlaw religion?

I'd hate to think you were evading the issue because you're unable to back up your claims.

[bananas]

20. lol

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=102030&mesg_id=102834
:rofl:

[beam me up scottie]

23. more lols:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=102030&mesg_id=102348

I have always defended religious freedom.

Har har. It is to laugh.

[Odin2005]

28. BMUS! Nice seeing you!

:hug:

[beam me up scottie]

30. Hey Odin!

Great to see you, too! :hug:

[trotsky]

25. An anonymous post on an Internet message board.

Yep, them fundie atheists is DANGEROUS! I totally see why John Gray (and you, evidently) are afraid of... uh... something, I guess.

[Drale]

3. You can separate it though

normal people don't have sex in public do they?

[beam me up scottie]

4. The guy who claims islamic terrorism is inspired by leftists and secularism ?

"Secular Fundamentalists"?

Seriously?

More recycled anti-secular propaganda from a paranoid bigot.




Fail. :thumbsdown:

[bananas]

5. Sam Harris with his "Head in the sand liberals" idiocy. nt

[laconicsax]

7. You're back!

Long time, no see!

[beam me up scottie]

9. Yeah, sorry it's been so long.

How've you been?

[laconicsax]

14. As well as can be expected under varying circumstances.

Well, a little better than that.

[beam me up scottie]

17. Thinking good thoughts.

Life is so hard sometimes.
:hug:

[Jim__]

11. Do you have a citation? - n/t

[beam me up scottie]

13. "John Gray on why the 'secular fundamentalists' have got it all wrong"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2008/mar/15/society

Dude's one nasty little pissant.

[Jim__]

22. That's not a quote from Gray - nor does it say anything about islamic terrorism being inspired ...

... by leftists and secularism.

What he has to say about "secular fundamentalism" is that it derives from religion:

Nowadays most atheists are avowed liberals. What they want - so they will tell you - is not an atheist regime, but a secular state in which religion has no role. They clearly believe that, in a state of this kind, religion will tend to decline. But America's secular constitution has not ensured a secular politics. Christian fundamentalism is more powerful in the US than in any other country, while it has very little influence in Britain, which has an established church. Contemporary critics of religion go much further than demanding disestablishment. It is clear that he wants to eliminate all traces of religion from public institutions. Awkwardly, many of the concepts he deploys - including the idea of religion itself - have been shaped by monotheism. Lying behind secular fundamentalism is a conception of history that derives from religion.

[beam me up scottie]

27. Weird how it's got his name on it.

The atheist delusion

'Opposition to religion occupies the high ground, intellectually and morally,' wrote Martin Amis recently. Over the past few years, leading writers and thinkers have published bestselling tracts against God. John Gray on why the 'secular fundamentalists' have got it all wrong

John Gray
The Guardian, Friday 14 March 2008
Article history

And this is the quote I was referring to:

In today's anxiety about religion, it has been forgotten that most of the faith-based violence of the past century was secular in nature. To some extent, this is also true of the current wave of terrorism. Islamism is a patchwork of movements, not all violently jihadist and some strongly opposed to al-Qaida, most of them partly fundamentalist and aiming to recover the lost purity of Islamic traditions, while at the same time taking some of their guiding ideas from radical secular ideology. There is a deal of fashionable talk of Islamo-fascism, and Islamist parties have some features in common with interwar fascist movements, including antisemitism. But Islamists owe as much, if not more, to the far left, and it would be more accurate to describe many of them as Islamo-Leninists. Islamist techniques of terror also have a pedigree in secular revolutionary movements. The executions of hostages in Iraq are copied in exact theatrical detail from European "revolutionary tribunals" in the 1970s, such as that staged by the Red Brigades when they murdered the former Italian prime minister Aldo Moro in 1978.

[Jim__]

33. Martin Amis' name is in the same sub-heading. Think he co-wrote it?

And owes as much as, if not more to the far left - as in owes as much as, if not more to the far left than to fascism (as the previous sentence makes clear) is the claim that Islamic terrorism is a direct descendant of 20th century violence - not an invention of Islam. His ascription to the far left applies to many of them not all of them.

[beam me up scottie]

36. Um, no. it specifially reads: " John Gray ON WHY THE 'SECULAR FUNDAMENTALISTS' HAVE GOT IT ALL WRONG

The subheading only refers to something Amis wrote recently:

"'Opposition to religion occupies the high ground, intellectually and morally,'" wrote Martin Amis recently.

And btw, WTF? Why are you defending this bigot?

[Jim__]

39. The subheading that you cited, reads in full:

'Opposition to religion occupies the high ground, intellectually and morally,' wrote Martin Amis recently. Over the past few years, leading writers and thinkers have published bestselling tracts against God. John Gray on why the 'secular fundamentalists' have got it all wrong

I doubt that John Gray wrote any of that.

How much of John Grays' work have you read? I've read a few of his books, and a number of his columns. I haven't found him to be a bigot.

[beam me up scottie]

41. Oh ffs. Just google the god damned thing. Use the title 'The Atheist Delusion'

His whiny little article is all over the net. Here is the exact paragraph:

Nowadays most atheists are avowed liberals. What they want - so they will tell you - is not an atheist regime, but a secular state in which religion has no role. They clearly believe that, in a state of this kind, religion will tend to decline. But America's secular constitution has not ensured a secular politics. Christian fundamentalism is more powerful in the US than in any other country, while it has very little influence in Britain, which has an established church. Contemporary critics of religion go much further than demanding disestablishment. It is clear that he wants to eliminate all traces of religion from public institutions. Awkwardly, many of the concepts he deploys - including the idea of religion itself - have been shaped by monotheism. Lying behind secular fundamentalism is a conception of history that derives from religion.

Perhaps you prefer the term "militants of the secular cause" which he used in the same article.

Here's an excerpt from his book Black Mass:

Zealous atheism renews some of the worst features of Christianity and Islam. Just as much as these religions, it is a project of universal conversion. Evangelical atheists never doubt that human life can be transformed if everyone accepts their view of things, and they are certain that one way of living - their own, suitably embellished - is right for everybody. To be sure, atheism need not be a missionary creed of this kind. It is entirely reasonable to have no religious beliefs, and yet be friendly to religion. It is a funny sort of humanism that condemns an impulse that is peculiarly human. Yet that is what evangelical atheists do when they demonise religion.

No, no bigotry there at all, indeed, what a lovely man. :sarcasm: I'm sure you're proud to be a fan of his work.


I'd post more but I can't stomach any more intolerance today, I've got a bf and wild horse to train.

[Jim__]

43. See post #22 - you're merely repeating the paragraph I quoted in that post.

I don't have to google through the article, I've read it many times.

As to the paragraph that you cite from Black Mass, that is a good statement of what Gray claims. There is nothing bigoted about it; he backs up his argument. Just because you disagree with something does not make it bigoted.

[beam me up scottie]

46. So why did you claim he didn't use that term?

The guy is a hateful bigot and the fact that you admit you're a fan of his is revolting.

Try posting some more of his "good statements" on DU and see what kind of response you'll receive.

[Jim__]

47. In post #22, I explicitly stated that he did use that term. I also stated in post #22, ...

... that the line you cited was not written by John Gray.

[beam me up scottie]

32. And again with the "Secular Fundamentalism".

That has to be one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.

Who the hell talks like that?

[Jim__]

34. "Who the hell talks like that?" - Chris Hedges, New York Times, wikipedia ....

As in Chris Hedges, New York Times, and wikipedia - that's just picking out a few.

[beam me up scottie]

35. AND??? It's still a religious right wing meme and should not be used or defended on DU.

Fer chrissake, if I had a legitimate source would it be okay if I wanted to post religious slurs about christians here?

[Jim__]

40. Chris Hedges is using a religious right wing meme?

I doubt it. I doubt Mustafa Akyol would use one either.

[beam me up scottie]

42. Quelle Surprise!!!

Big fan of Hedges too, are you?

Keep on using that meme, dude, it makes DU atheists look like saints.

[Jim__]

44. Big fan of hedges? No, I'm saying he's not a religious right winger.

[beam me up scottie]

45. When did I claim otherwise? n/t

[bananas]

12. Atheism has some interesting religious rituals.

You can see some of them right here in this thread.

[beam me up scottie]

16. So in your opinion atheism is a religion.

What gives you the right to define the beliefs (or lack of them) of other people?

[bananas]

21. What a bizarre post.

Does that really reflect your thinking?

[beam me up scottie]

24. You claimed atheism had religious rituals.

In order to practice religious rituals one would need a religion, no?

[trotsky]

29. There are some other individuals on DU who have interesting religious rituals, too.

Key among them the need to bash straw men atheists on every thread they can!

[chrisa]

18. I don't need to "suppress it." I have no urge to believe in what isn't so.

[undergroundpanther]

19. Religion is an addiction

People "get high" at certain types of churches.

[Odin2005]

26. This guy, again?

:eyes:

[beam me up scottie]

31. Makes you want to press a copy of Dawkin's 'The God Delusion' to his forehead to see if he'll melt..

Paperback, of course, I never advocate violence - not even against bigots.

[NMMNG]

37. Nobody really wants to suppress religion

We just want it out of our government and to keep people from forcing it into our lives by that or any other means.

[darkstar3]

38. Taking steps to prevent theocracy is not an attempt to supress religion.

This guy's a tool on so many levels.