Quebec’s new secular norm: $144 fines for religious worship

[rug]

National Post Staff Nov 3, 2011 – 5:30 AM ET | Last Updated: Nov 3, 2011 9:15 AM ET

By Graeme Hamilton

MONTREAL • On a Sunday morning two years ago, Paula Celani and about 80 members of her Catholic lay group gathered in a hall they had rented from the city. They watched an inspirational video, they prayed, they celebrated mass and they capped it off with a potluck lunch. “We had a beautiful day,” Ms. Celani recalls.

But now that beautiful day has generated a nasty court battle after she was hit with a $144 ticket from the city, which alleged her event was illegal because it involved religious worship.

This week her lawyer advised Montreal municipal court that he will challenge the fine on constitutional grounds.

The case illustrates how far the pendulum has swung in a province once dominated by the Church. Public displays of religious faith have come under increasing scrutiny in recent years as Quebecers have embraced secularism. The opposition Parti Québécois has proposed legislation that would prohibit members of the civil service from wearing “ostentatious” religious symbols. In a move targeting Muslim women who wear the niqab, the Liberal government has introduced a bill to require that those giving and receiving public services do so with their faces uncovered.

http://life.nationalpost.com/2011/11/03/quebec%E2%80%99s-new-secular-norm-fines-for-worship/

[edhopper]

1. Uh

"The fine print of her rental agreement, which she says she was never shown, spells out some restrictions: no smoking, no confetti inside or out, no propane tanks inside the building. Then it cites a zoning bylaw to declare that no activities of worship — “prayer, religious song and religious celebration” — are permitted. The area of Lachine where the Maison du Brasseur lies is not zoned for places of worship."

She violated the rental agreement and got a small fine.

Oh the persecution!

[rug]

2. What is the rationale that equates propane tanks to a religious service?

As an aside, I'v heard more howls about a cross on a mountain than I have about this.

Oh the persecution!

[Amonester]

4. propane tanks can... explode...

or do lots of other damages...

who are you to judge?

[rug]

5. And a religious service?

[Amonester]

7. Simple: at a Church.

Religious : Church

Go hand in hand, amen.

[rug]

9. That's circular.

[laconicsax]

12. Did someone say circular?

[rug]

14. Yes. You must have heard it as non sequitur.

It happens.

[laconicsax]

36. My bad. n/t

[Amonester]

13. BTW, national post is one of harper's best propaganda outlet.

And they are ANTI-Quebecois to the core (so much it borders "racism" too often)

No accusations. Maybe you didn't know.

[rug]

16. I'm unfamilar with it other than as a link.

Does that change any of the reported facts?

[Amonester]

17. The facts are, they got fined because they didn't READ the contract

they signed, or maybe they did and decided not to respect the terms.

Those are the facts. I don't know what's so hard to understand.

About the post being (sometimes) blatantly racist, well now you know.

[rug]

18. If you have two contradictory facts, you have only theories.

If you read this as a landlord=tenant dispute, you have neither.

[3waygeek]

6. Well, propane is God's Gas...

at least according to Hank Hill.

[rug]

8. "The only woman I'm pimping is sweet lady propane! And I'm tricking her out all over this town."

[TheMadMonk]

27. It's not about equiviancy. Just a list of activities not permitted in...

...this particular public hall.

Smoking - obvious.
Propane tanks - space heaters, BBQs even without explosion risk, there's the risk of suffocation and the mess created by grease.
Confetti - it's a prick to clean up. For real fun make velcro hook confetti and sprinkle on carpet.

Worship - simplest explanation would be avoiding the howling of these exact same idiots if the space were also available for non-Christian religions to hold formal services.

[rug]

29. Howling? Have you been to a religious service that involves howling?

[beam me up scottie]

31. That's what happens around here when the snake handlers screw up.

Poor snakes, there they are, minding their own business, and the next thing you know some lunatic is swinging them around above their head hollering like a banshee.

:(

[rug]

33. Move.

Pronto.

[beam me up scottie]

35. I wish I could.

Can't leave a good man like mine, they're too hard to find.

[TheMadMonk]

37. Not in services (as I HOPE you well know). Those howling for...

...the restriction of others whilst demanding access for themselves.

Militant old ladies against pagan activities et. al.

[Amonester]

3. "the pendulum has swung" because...

of too many abuses...

give an inch and some take a mile...

always has been and will always be (sadly)

[haikugal]

10. Read The Contract Fool....

[rug]

11. You must be referring to the landlord.

"The activities of the foundation, a federally registered charity, include the distribution of religious literature and the organization of spiritual symposiums and retreats."

[Jim__]

15. To me the issue would be that she was never shown the rental agreement.

If the rule against worship is not very well known and she really wasn't shown the rental agreement, that seems like a failure on the part of the rental agency. I would hope that a contract that one party has never seen cannot be enforced. If she signed the agreement, that puts the show on the other foot.

[haikugal]

19. Isn' it buyer beware?

If anything, fault could be found on both sides...so how does this equate to victimizing someone?

[beam me up scottie]

20. Are you anti-secularism, rug?

Serious question.

[rug]

30. No. In fact, the party most harmed by church-state mixing is the church.

I'm against idiocy in achieving the end of maintaining that separation. I don't think arguments about propane and howling achieve that end.

[beam me up scottie]

34. That's not what I was getting at, but thanks.

I don't always like the way some liberal activists behave, but I understand and respect their right to express themselves.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beam me up scottie]

22. I grew up with one foot in Quebec and on behalf of their citizens, I thank you.

Can you imagine the disgust, the outrage, the protests, the RAGE over if this happened to an atheist group?

Yes, hundreds of thousands of atheists and their champions would riot, just like they do in this country.

:rofl:

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beam me up scottie]

24. Yes, my cabal and I are lighting our torches and readying our pitchforks as I write this.

We are contractually obligated to indulge all persecution fantasies.

[darkstar3]

25. Maybe you can explain how your parallel makes sense by telling us how an atheist group would worship

[EvilAL]

41. Have you ever been to Quebec?

I think it's good that you will avoid us like the plague, because we see you as the fucking plague.

Looniest places? We have a full Democratic leadership now, very progressive. You have no fucking clue what you are talking about. Our schools actually have a religion course in them now. They teach ALL religions from a secualr point of view, no favourites. The only people it seemed to piss off were the fucking christians who felt threatened that their poor little fucking children might learn about mohammad or buddha or any of the other mythological gods..

[NMMNG]

26. She violated the terms of her contract

But of course she has to play the persecution card because religion is supposed to get a special pass. :eyes:

[rug]

32. Think about it.

If a zoning law can be used to keep people from gathering, presumably without howling, to have a prayer service, it can as well be used to keep people from gathering, presumably without howling, to discuss ideas, philosophies or politics.

it really has little to do with whining or persecution.

[Deep13]

39. The terms seem to be based on town zoning.

Generally, one does not get fined for violating a contract.

[humblebum]

28. It is much easier in Canada to shape the nation regarding the

recognition of religion. If something is unconstitutional one day, according to the "living tree" principle the constitution can be changed to accommodate new circumstances.

[Deep13]

38. So is this real or a made-up story?

I don't know much about Canadian Constitutional law, but it sure seems like this goes beyond secular to being oppressive.

[rug]

40. Looks legit.

[Amonester]

42. It is reported on purpose by the extreme right to feed their followers' hate

of everything 'Qwaybec'

If it happened to Muslims, the story (if EVER even reported, which is highly unlikely...), the national post (which is as much 'national' as Faux $nooze is 'national' south of the border, BTW) would have been all on the side of the law.

Since it was Christians, then, of course they are (fakely) outraged.

So predictable... and boring.