After 12 years of praying with kids at flagpole, pastor says offended atheists won't stop him

[rug]

posted by Rob Kerby, Senior Editor | 7:40pm Friday November 4, 2011

Can a Wisconsin atheist group keep a Florida preacher from meeting with local kids who want to pray at their school’s flagpole before classes begin?

School Attorney Bruce Bickner for the Clay County School Board says the atheists can, indeed – that their threat of an expensive lawsuit means the kids need to stop praying. It seems the Madison, Wisc.-based Freedom from Religion Foundation is offended that for more than 12 years, Pastor Ron Baker of the nearby Russell Baptist Church, has showed up once a week at four different local elementary schools and prayed with any kids who want to start the day asking for the help, guidance and protection of the Almighty.

School Attorney Bickner says the school district must bow to the demands of the out-of-town atheists. He says, regardless of how anybody in Clay County, Florida, feels, praying at the flagpole is against the law, because “it is a violation of the United States Constitution for a teacher, school administrator or other school district employee to join in a prayer session during their work time,” according to the Jacksonville daily newspaper the Florida Times-Union.

But a Christian legal group, the American Center for Law and Justice, points out that neither the preacher or the kids are school district employees. The ACLJ says the school district attorney has no authority over the parson or the children who want to pray with him – even if it offends Wisconsin atheists.

http://blog.beliefnet.com/news/2011/11/after-12-years-of-praying-for-kids-at-flagpole-pastor-says-offended-atheists-wont-stop-him.php

[greyl]

1. "...local kids who want to pray at their school’s flagpole..." ? Seriously doubt it. nt

[laconicsax]

4. There was a group where I went to school that did it.

They had flyers saying, "see you at the pole" with a bunch of little stick figures holding hands around a flagpole. From what I understand, it's a pretty common thing.

[greyl]

5. Kids like in the OP photo? That young?

(as in too young to be making a truly independent choice to pray around flag pole)

[emilyg]

7. Yes. That young. I was

one of them in school.

[greyl]

8. And you actually wanted to do that of your own volition?

If so, why?

[ButterflyBlood]

20. Yep, even Christian schools have it kind of amusingly

Or so I've been told by some people in my progressive Christian small group who went to Christian high schools.

Definitely happened at my public high school, but don't remember it prior to high school.

[petronius]

2. It seems to me that the bigger problem is an unaffiliated person coming onto school grounds

and having anything to do with the kids. :shrug: Other than that, I'd side with the pastor if he wants to meet the kids anywhere off campus - that's between him and the parents...

[The Wielding Truth]

3. If it's outside the school, voluntary and they have written permission from

the parents or legal guardians it should be allowed for any religion or club approved by the school, I think.

[NMMNG]

6. I'm not convinced

that elementary school children are truly, of their own volition, deciding to go off to the flagpole to pray. It seems Mr. Pastor Man is going around instigating it. I wonder why he can't just pray with them in church (assuming they're members) or let their parents do so before school if praying each school day is so important. I also wonder if the parents are aware he's going to the schools recruiting their kids (though it's Florida so most of them probably wouldn't care much).

[beam me up scottie]

9. The christian legal group calls themselves "the American Center for Law and Justice"?

:rofl:

[onager]

22. The ACLJ was spawned by Pat Robertson in 1990...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACLJ

And yep, the name is a deliberate slap at the ACLU.

ACLJ is not some fringe group - it's extremely (pun intended) well-financed by rich American religious kooks like Tom Monaghan, and has enough power to insert itself into just about every case involving religion.

The main mouthpiece of the ACLJ is Jay Sekulow, a far-right "Messianic Jew." I often hear Suck-u-low bloviating on his personal radio show, on the local Los Angeles Fundie radio stations. He talks very fast, like a used-car salesman. Or typical Xian preacher.

There's also a European equivalent, the ECLJ, which is busy trying to inject American Fundamentalism into the European Union.

Most recently, the ACLJ has defended the right of the Ugandan govt. to kill gay people.

And hi - good to see you back! :hi:

[Angry Dragon]

10. I really do not see what the big deal is

In my world everyone is allowed to pray any where they damn well please

[Old and In the Way]

11. So, they are praying to a secular symbol?

Doesn't that kinda go against that 1st Commandment we all learn about in church...the place where you're supposed to pray? Maybe we should start using their churches to teach civics classes or hold evolution teach-ins.

[laconicsax]

12. You're expecting a knowledgeable application of religion.

That's an unreasonable expectation.

[Mariana]

16. He's gathering the kids around the flagpole

so as to attract attention to himself. That's the whole point of the exercise. Now everyone knows how wonderful and righteous he is, and he gets to pretend he's being persecuted, too.

[Tesha]

13. He's trespassing.

Our local school district has a very clear policy
on *ANY* visitors (collared or not) and how they
*MUS* behave on school grounds.

This district probably has a similar policy; they
should simply be sued to ensure they enforce their
visitor policy.

Tesha

[Boojatta]

18. "they should simply be sued to ensure they enforce their visitor policy."

Can you sue government agencies to force them to do their jobs? For example, the SEC investigated Madoff, but the investigation very much failed to be a thorough investigation, and the SEC concluded that Madoff was not defrauding anybody.

[rug]

23. It's called a writ of mandamus.

[struggle4progress]

14. I'd guess the courts might leave such a matter mostly in the hands of the local school district:

if the district is not promoting the prayer activity, and if it does not occur during school hours, any claim, that allowing this activity involves some conflicting entanglement with the establishment prohibition, would be unrecognizable by the courts

OTOH ...

Pastor at center of school-prayer flap
By Bob Allen
Friday, November 04, 2011
... Ron Baker, the pastor of the 2,000-member Russell Baptist Church in Green Cove Springs, Fla. ... has been conducting flagpole prayers at four Clay County schools for 12 years. They went largely unnoticed until the principal at Clay Hill Elementary School recently sent a Sept. 30 memo to his 40-member staff saying the First Amendment applies only to Christians.

That prompted a letter from the Freedom From Religion Foundation viewing the flagpole rallies as an unconstitutional endorsement of religion by government.

Clay County School Board attorney J. Bruce Bickner issued a legal opinion saying, “A review of the law and pertinent cases clearly indicate these enumerated activities all work together to make this a clear violation of the establishment clause and a clear case of endorsement of religion generally and Christianity particularly” ...

Baker said he was advised by Pat Robertson’s American Center for Law and Justice “that there is nothing illegal about what we’re doing and that it falls well within the perimeters of what the Constitution allows” ...
http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/6907/53/

So the school principal actually promoted the flagpole-prayer in a staff memo -- and that certainly will create a very strong impression of entanglement; it would be interesting to read the actual advice of the School Board’s attorney here, but I haven't seen it, perhaps because it's privileged

I rather doubt the pastor would have any standing to complain if the school board told him to stay off school property during normal work hours except when he has ordinary school-related business

[Silent3]

15. It seems to me the real legal issue isn't the prayer itself...

...but whether the pastor and the particular activity of prayer is receiving special treatment.

Can anyone drop by the school and use the school property to gather children together for special activities around the flagpole? Or only Christian pastors, with anyone else who tried to do such a thing not only likely to be denied access to school property and school children, but likely to end up with a restraining order for such intrusive behavior?

[rrneck]

17. Get it off public property. nt

[LeftishBrit]

19. IF the story is as stated, then I think the prayers should be permitted

I say 'IF' because legal and media organizations defending 'Christian freedom' often embellish or omit crucial details in such stories.

If it is simply a voluntary group choosing to pray in their own time, and if other extra-curricular activities are given facilities in the school, then I think it should be allowed. After all, people choose to engage in all kinds of activities that I might not choose, and should feel free to do so.

However, if kids are being pressurized to take part, or if the pastor is going around trying to convert or condemn other pupils who don't choose to join in the prayer, or if this is the *only* extracurricular activity for which the school is expected to provide facilities, then this would change my view.

[ButterflyBlood]

21. I think this type of thing is fine as long as it's entirely instigated by the students

Some Christian students association or club wants to do it, fine. Some pastor with no connection to the school trying to instigate it is another thing. "Offending atheists" shouldn't be an issue, but some random guy coming by for things like this isn't too dissimilar to some sales rep from a company soliciting for their products on school grounds and wouldn't be allowed.