Has the religion/theology forum been invaded by atheists?

[MarkCharles]

Has the discussion of religion and theology been made useless by people who think freely?

Were these people only a few aggressive posters here? Should religion and theology be the only things talked about here?

Not atheism?

Did some people stop the free flow of Christian ideas here?

Does a forum on the DU deserve a separate space where only self-proclaimed "religious" people can talk?

Your thoughts?

[Warpy]

1. If you want a closed forum specific to one religion or group of religions

then by all means send DU some money and buy a star so you can access them.

Public forums are just that, they're open to all of us.

I would suggest this one is not for anyone whose convictions are so weak they can't stand up to a little scrutiny from outsiders.

[MarkCharles]

3. Thanks for helping me know how this place works!

I don't know what goes on here.

I'm new here.

I don't want to limit free expression, nor challenges to religious ways of thought.

I did NOT realize that paying more gives people more free speech here.

[notadmblnd]

5. You can access those forums with out being a donating member

I haven't been able to donate lately, but I just accessed them.

[iris27]

85. You can't post in DU Groups without being a donor, though.

You can read every thread - you just can't reply.

[Rabblevox]

10. Welcome to DU. A minor (maybe not so minor) correction.

Membership here cost $5. It does give you access to some sub-forums. It is well worth the cost. This board is not free to run, and the ads only cover a portion of the cost. The rest come from donors (like me) who believe the board is worthy of support.

If you are a non-paying guest, you still have access to about 90% of all threads, and about 90% of all user functions. Feel free to come and play. But if you come to stay, fuckin' $5 is not too much to ask.

[kestrel91316]

13. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that your

snotty-sounding last sentence was unintentional.

If you don't like how DU works you are free to play elsewhere.

[Warpy]

47. People who wail about free speech while trying to curtail the speech of people they don't like

have totally missed the point.

The point is that the government is not trying to shut DU or you down. Yet.

However, a privately owned site with a specific editorial viewpoint does have terms of service, something you would do well to read.

That is all, life is short, goodbye.

[ZombieHorde]

2. The following groups are for positive discussion only.

Only Catholics, or those aligned with Catholics, should post in the Catholic group. Same for the Pagan group, the Islam group, etc.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=428

[notadmblnd]

4. Ummm, no.

Why would anyone who has faith in god not want to discuss religion with those that don't have faith in god?

[skepticscott]

6. Religionists here often complain

that they want to have a serious discussion of their "faith", but that things always get derailed by the mean ol' atheists questioning and challenging everything. And yet if you check out the Christian Liberals and Progressive People of Faith group (where dissenting posts are not allowed, and where they could have such a discussion for as long as they wanted, wherever they wanted), no real discussion of any sort ever takes place. So you wonder what they really have to talk about when it's just them.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Speck Tater]

8. Atheism is a belief about religion, and could be called a religious belief.

At any rate, beliefs or lack of beliefs about religion should be a proper topic of discussion here. Unless, that is, the true believers only want this t be a forum for and about true believers.

And I would hardly call it an "invasion" when the word "invasion" seems to imply not just moving into a space, but ousting the opponents. As far as I can tell believers are still free to post here, and have not be kicked out by the "invaders".

If they find the arguments of the atheists uncomfortable then let them provide reasoned counter-arguments of their own. Or, and this is a rather radical proposal, the true believers could (and this is just an idea), ignore the atheist's threads.

[cleanhippie]

21. Atheism is not a belief about religion.

It a lack of belief in the claims made by religion.


Two very, very, different things.

[Speck Tater]

26. Not this tired old argument again!

Atheism is NOT about gardening, and it's not about stamp collecting. Then what IS it about?
The subject of atheism is the untruth of religious beliefs. Without religion there would be no word for "atheism". Atheism exists as a concept only because religion exists as a concept. Atheism is ABOUT religion, and it's falsity.

Atheism is the belief that religious claims are false. Don't like the word "belief". OK...
Atheism takes the position that religious beliefs are false.

Squirm any way you like. Either you DO believe that religious claims are false or you do NOT believe that religious claims are false. Which is it?

[laconicsax]

34. Are you unable to understand the difference?

Atheism is a lack of belief in a god, not a belief in itself.

Do you believe in Nut? No? How long have you had that belief?
Do you believe in Vishnu? No? How long have you ad that belief?

Or is it possible that your beliefs never included either (and many more) of those gods?

[Speck Tater]

35. Yawn. I have to go study some irregular Spanish verbs now. nt

[NMMNG]

36. Yawn. Another person who thinks he knows more about atheism

than atheists do. :boring:

[laconicsax]

38. I'll take that as an admission that you were wrong. n/t

[Speck Tater]

39. OK. That works for me. :)

I guess that people with certain beliefs about their beliefs don't like their beliefs being called beliefs. I really don't get why people get so hostile about the issue though. I don't really give a damn what you call your beliefs. And as the old saying goes, what you think of me is none of my business.

And no, I don't claim to know more about anything than anybody. I'm a devout atheist and to ME that means that I believe that all regions are crap. That's what I believe, and that's why I'm an atheist. Now if you want to call my belief that all religions are crap a non-belief, fine. Call it a blueberry pie for all I care. Tell you what. I'll call it a trumwizzle, cause I'm sick of getting jumped on every time I post something with the word "belief" in it.

My atheist trumwizzle is that all religions are crap. Happy? Can I get back to my Spanish irregular verbs now?

[laconicsax]

42. You're mistaking incredulity for hostility.

There's a difference between not believing something and believing its converse. You may believe something, but don't pawn your beliefs off on others. I have several beliefs concerning religious claims, but they aren't a cause or effect of my lack of belief in Thor.

[Speck Tater]

57. Just one question...

Do you believe that there are no gods or not?

[LeftishBrit]

59. I believe that the evidence is against there being a god

This doesn't mean that there couldn't possibly be. It depends also how you define a 'god'. Example: one of the most evidence-based religions is also one of the oldest: Sun Worship. We know that the sun exists; we know that it provides us with light and heat and the possibility of food and that without it we couldn't survive. We know that it can also harm us. However, a god as generally understood needs to be conscious; I do not believe that the sun is conscious; therefore I don't believe that the sun is a god. With most other religions, there is less evidence even for the power and usually even existence of the gods.

That doesn't mean that the gods are proved *not* to exist, but I just don't find the evidence strong enough to persuade me personally to believe in one.

In any case, the nature of belief and unbelief is an interesting philosophical question; but on a political board, I think most atheists are mainly concerned about political leaders who use religion to bolster the position of the authorities, to suppress or punish nonbelievers and 'wrong' believers, or to impose religion-based morality into law.

[Speck Tater]

61. Thank you. That is EXACTLY my belief about the existence of gods (and/or goddesses). nt

[laconicsax]

70. I do not believe in any gods--that doesn't mean I believe there are no gods.

It's ok if you don't understand the difference.

[Speck Tater]

72. Yes, of course I understand the difference. It's a very big difference.

You believe that the issue is either unanswered, or unanswerable. You believe that while there is no credible evidence for the existence of god, there is certainly no proof that there is no god. That seems like a perfectly rational belief to me.

[cleanhippie]

45. How is it when several people tell YOU what THEY do not believe, you INSIST that they are wrong.

:wtf:

[Speck Tater]

62. No, you are not wrong. You believe there is no evidence for god.

That's a perfectly rational and respectable belief that I happen to share with you.

[Iggo]

43. It's right there in the word: A-theism.

It's about not being a theist.

[cleanhippie]

44. Wait, what? I JUST explained it in the post above. What is so difficult to undertand?

Theism is a belief in a deity.

A-theism is the LACK of belief in a deity.



What is so difficult to understand about that?

[Iggo]

49. never mind

[Speck Tater]

58. In other words, you believe there are no gods. Right? nt

[cleanhippie]

78. Wrong!

But you know that. It cannot be made any clearer.


You are being willfully obtuse. You stay classy, ok?

[Deep13]

41. A belief that religion has failed to prove it's point?

:shrug:

[MemeSmith]

88. Mine Isn't

My Atheism is not simply a lack of belief.

I'm a strong Atheist. My position is that there can be no god. I do not simply lack belief in god. I strongly maintain that there are no gods.

By the common definition, my position is a belief.

[Thats my opinion]

50. There have been sturdy efforts to push out believers

For years r/t has been overwhelmed by two kinds of atheists. There are those honest seekers who really want a conversation. And there are those whose only passion is to trash all religion and anyone who believes in it. There is no conversation with this latter group and many of us have just placed them on "ignore." As a result many who are seriously interested in an honest discussion of religion and theology wouldn't dare venture a posting in r/t. It is not that they are uncomfortable with counter-arguments, but that the vitriol they find just isn't subject to discourse. A few of us have sought to recapture the meaning inherent in religion and theology. Luring serious religious thinkers back has been problematic. Recently someone ( not I) filed something that mentioned God, and there was a response which said that mentioning God was offensive to atheists. The poster never came back.

[cleanhippie]

52. 100% SLANDER! No one wants to "push out" anyone. You are totally dishonest.

You fabricate these claims, backed up by ZERO evidence.

And you call yourself a person who "really wants a conversation?"


"Recently someone ( not I) filed something that mentioned God, and there was a response which said that mentioning God was offensive to atheists. The poster never came back."


Really? What post was that?


Laughable. Dishonest. And despicable.

[Goblinmonger]

68. Want to give some context on that "mentioning God" thing?

Because there are times when it is offensive. "In God We Trust" is VERY offensive to me. I'm part of "we" and I don't believe in a god, so our "national motto" seems to tell me that I am not really part of this country.

"One nation under God" is equally offensive to me. I have to listen to the pledge every day in school. I don't believe in God. Why is is appropriate to have something so not inclusive be a pledge for all?

[WolverineDG]

69. And to back you up on that

anytime any believer posts anything positive, it doesn't take too long for an atheist to trash it. Doesn't matter what the subject matter is, either.

I, for one, like the posts about Buddhism & Hinduism. Since I don't know any Hindus or Buddhists IRL, I find those posts very interesting & enlightening.

dg

[laconicsax]

71. You haven't even been here for a full year, yet you cite "years."

I'm calling bullshit on your claims, Charles. Time to put your money where your mouth is and give a link or two.

[NMMNG]

74. Who tried to get this forum shut down

because he didn't like diversity of opinion? Hint: It wasn't an atheist. Stop projecting your own animosity onto others and stop pretending all of the vitriol and bad behavior in here comes from atheists. This isn't your church, it's a discussion forum.

[trotsky]

76. NMMNG FTW.

Nothing more needs to be said.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=437x4677

[skepticscott]

84. You haven't been here "for years"

so your experience can't possibly bear that out. And it is you, not those you decry, who has refused to engage on anything that doesn't advance your agenda or that doesn't fit your personal, preconceived notion of the proper "tone".

And please show us where someone said that even mentioning "god" was offensive to atheists. You have a penchant for making things up or taking them totally out of context, so I'm not taking your word for that one.

[humblebum]

9. If atheists are posting in a forum about religion and theology,

I guess atheism must be a religion. Go figure.

[demosincebirth]

20. Wash you mouth out!

[cleanhippie]

22. And there is the one big problem... you guess too much.

[rrneck]

37. How 'bout those Lakers! nt

[LeftishBrit]

60. And if people are posting in a forum about Justice they must all be lawyers; and if they post in a

forum about Guns they must all be gun-owners; and if they post in the Israel/Palestine forum they must all live in the Middle East?

[SecularMotion]

11. Welcome to DU

The Atheists & Agnostics group is a sub-forum of Science & Skepticism

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=263

Groups for specific religions are under the Religion & Spirituality Group.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=428

There are limits to where you can post before you have donated.

[MarkCharles]

14. Thank you! I didn't realize that those who subscribe to democratic ideals, even here are

limited by pocket book.

Too bad that no place seems to exist where free speech upon any topic would be limited by money.

[SecularMotion]

17. If you have questions about policies

we have the Ask the Administrators forum

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=437

DU is a moderated forum for Democratic liberals and progressives. There's no free speech here, but the rules and limits are fairly reasonable.

I see the R/T group as home for all who are interested in the role religion plays in our society, politics and the world. Unfortunately, it is also a dumping ground for any religious flame wars that start in GD.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MineralMan]

48. You can go to any public place and say whatever you wish about

religion. This is not a public place. It is a privately owned forum. The owners make the rules they want. You have complete freedom to be here or not to be here.

Freedom of speech only applies to governments, not private web sites. Enjoy your stay.

[zazen]

12. obsessing about someone's faith=obsessing about their sex life

Is it hurting the posters? If they're truly being persecuted, then they should speak up about it. But this constant harangue about how anyone who isn't an atheist is an idiot is smacks of adolescent arrogance. What I do in my bedroom is none of their business, and my faith in a greater universal consciousness, of which we primates are barely and rarely aware, is none of their business. And someone else's faith that Christ is the Son of God or Mohammed his last Prophet is none of their business.

[Goblinmonger]

65. I completely agree. But, sadly, our society doesn't function like that.

They are just voting to make it clear that "In God We Trust" is our national motto and continue to print it on our currency instead of the original, more inclusive, e pluribus unum. That is not keep it in "the bedroom" so to speak. It impacts me and I have the right to discuss it.

Kentucky is voting to make a fetus a person. Clearly a decision impacted by their religious beliefs. This will have huge impacts on a lot of people's lives. Again, not in the bedroom.

If people really kept their religion private, I wouldn't give two farts what people believed in. But certainly you aren't Pollyanna-ish enough to think that the is really the case in our society?

[elocs]

15. Well, there is an escapee from the Gungeon whose apparent mission is be in your face abou

his atheism.

It seems as though the point is to belittle those of faith, particularly Christianity, until they choose to avoid this forum. I think that DUers of faith do need a place to post where they are not made to feel like ignorant morons by other DUers just because of their faith.

(Oh, at best I am an agnostic or just a deist, but I can respect the religious choices, or none at all of DUers.)

[Goblinmonger]

66. They have that place

There are groups for specific beliefs that are protected from dissenting opinions. If you go in and clear out the cobwebs, you can have a discussion.

People of faith bitch about the evil atheists in this forum, but they don't go and talk about things in their groups. Interesting, huh?

[EvolveOrConvolve]

16. "Invaded" is such a loaded and negative term

All points of view are welcome in R&T as long as they're discussions of Religion and/or Theology (there are other forums for other topics). But the R&T mission statement does NOT state that all posts must be pro-christian. Many are not. In fact many are quite hostile to the ideas behind christianity and other religions.

There are several groups that provide sanctuary to individual groups to post among themselves. For example, I spend time reading the Atheists and Agnostics group forum, knowing that I'm not going to get preached at or proselytized. There are others that cater to religious DUers.

[bananas]

18. My undestanding is it was created to keep "New Atheists" from spamming the "General Discussion" foru

If you look at other forums, you'll notice they seem to be misnamed.
My understanding is that, to keep the "General Discussion" forum open for general discussion, some topics which generate too much heat are forced into other forums.

For example, "the dungeon" refers to the "September 11" forum.
There were a lot of arguments about conspiracy theories about 911 clogging GD,
so now any thread about conspiracy theories or fringe subjects gets thrown into "the dungeon".
Threads in the dungeon do not show up on the "Latest Threads" or "Greatest Threads" pages.

"The gungeon" is the "gun dungeon", the "Guns" forum.
Arguments about second amendment issues etc generate a lot of arguments which just clog GD,
so those threads get thrown into the "gun dungeon".
I don't know if those threads show up on the Latest or Greatest pages.

The Israel/Palestine forum is another one,
anything about Israel or Palestine will be thrown there even if it isn't about the I/P conflict.
Those threads don't show up on the Latest or Greatest pages,
and you can't Recommend them.

"Threadjacking" is when someone doesn't like a thread,
finds a way of making it about one of the about subjects,
then alerts on it and gets it banished to one of the dungeons.

edit to add definition of "New Atheism" from wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Atheism

"New Atheism is the name given to a movement among some early-21st-century atheist writers who have advocated the view that "religion should not simply be tolerated but should be countered, criticized, and exposed by rational argument wherever its influence arises."
...
The movement's origins are often traced to the 2004 publication of The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason by Sam Harris, a bestseller in the USA. This marked the first of a series of bestsellers that took a harder line against religion. Harris was motivated by the events of September 11, 2001, which he laid directly at the feet of Islam, while also directly criticizing Christianity and Judaism.

[Goblinmonger]

67. No, it wasn't intended as a hell for the "new atheists"

it was to keep all religious discussion out of GD. Nice job pushing the blame on the atheists, though. I like that.

[bananas]

75. Glad you like it, I try to entertain as well as inform.

I wasn't blaming all atheists, just the neo-atheists,
who are as bad as the neo-liberals and neo-conservatives.

Oh how I wish for the good old days,
of paleo-liberals, paleo-conservatives, and paleo-atheists.

Those darn neo-whatevers, they're just newbies!

[Goblinmonger]

80. I find the "New Atheist" label to be, mostly, bullshit.

It is a dog whistle for atheists that don't just shut up. Was Bertrand Russell a "New Atheist"? He said not much different than the current batch. What about Paine? Many people didn't like his speaking out about his godlessness.

[jeff47]

83. Yes, it was so much better when the atheists knew their place.

Now they get uppity when you try to put "God" on everything.

[iris27]

86. R/T as a forum has been around longer that "New Atheism" as a movement. But nice try.

I started lurking at DU in the fall of 2002 and R/T was here even then.

[demosincebirth]

19. It's quite obvious. They ought to change it to, something like... anything but

what it's called now.

[NMMNG]

23. "Invaded" by atheists?

You imply atheists are somehow dirty or otherwise undesirable.

Does a forum on the DU deserve a separate space where only self-proclaimed "religious" people can talk?


DU has several of them. They get almost no traffic which indicates the religious folk, despite their rending of garments, aren't as bothered by the presence of atheists as they claim.

[Thats my opinion]

51. See my response somewhere above nt

[cleanhippie]

54. You mean "see my fabrication of events and persecution complex somewhere above."

I fixed it for you.

[Deep13]

56. EDIT, I found it.

Yup, same shit, different day.

[Meshuga]

24. Atheism is a relevant topic in a religion and theology forum

R/T is not a forum for the religious but a forum for DUers to discuss religion, belief, lack of belief, theology, etc.

The opinions about religion can be negative or positive depending on the poster.

There are specific groups for believers and groups for non-believers here in DU and people can go to those groups to vent or escape the inevitable R/T altercations.

[LeftishBrit]

63. +1

[rug]

27. In DU3 it wil be called the Shit-Flinging Monkeys Forum

[rrneck]

29. Then what will we call the gungeon? nt

[rug]

30. Shot-Flinging Monkeys.

:)

[westerebus]

32. that soda thru the sinuses worked well.... I think my hearings improved too...

...cleans monitor...desk... key board...

[rrneck]

33. Gah!

I'd claim it.

:rofl:

[cleanhippie]

46. Wow, that must hit eerily close to home for you then.

[LeftishBrit]

28. There are already spaces just for religious people to post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=428

Catholics and Orthodox; Progressive People of Faith; Jews; Muslims; Prayer Circle; etc.

There's also a group just for agnostics and atheists.

This particular forum is for everyone.

[westerebus]

31. Welcome to DU R/T.

The atheists have always been here as far as I recall.

As have the religious.

Stick around and join the fun.

If you have a math question getting a solution is easy.

An ethical query will get answered with a broad range of opinion.

On what's the weight of a one meter cube of helium a zero degrees C that comes with the formula and footnotes.

As to any thing else? No telling what you will get.

[Deep13]

40. Religion and theology are the subject matters for discussion.

Discussion means we talk about them. It does not mean we all practice them. Writing critically about religion and theology is still writing about religion and theology. Since atheism is defined in opposition to religious belief, discussions about atheism necessarily are discussions about religion and theology.

Skepticism as a wider, positive philosophy is found mostly in the Skeptics or Atheists forums.

[Thats my opinion]

53. See my response somewhere above rt

[cleanhippie]

55. You mean "see my fabrication of events and persecution complex somewhere above."

Fixed it for you.

[Moe Shinola]

64. Are you forgetting where you are?

Isn't this a liberal website? Did you expect freethinkers and atheists to avoid this forum?
I have questions even though I lean towards freethinker/agnostic, otherwise I'd call myself a "stopthinker".
I'm interested in other people's opinions about religion. I might even learn something here.
It isn't always for the purpose of debunking stuff that people like me visit religion forums.

[sakabatou]

73. *comes out wearing Mongol warrior outfit*

What do you mean invasion?

[jeepnstein]

77. I don't have a problem with it.

Actually, I kind of enjoy the exchange of ideas. It's a drag when someone tries to make it personal just to win an argument, seeing as how the internet is such serious business, but overall the debate has been interesting. It has a way of keeping me from turning my religious faith into something it is not, and was never intended to be.

[frogmarch]

79. Yes

the atheist invasion is upon you.

We are here.

[Angry Dragon]

81. What are your thoughts??

[Manifestor_of_Light]

82. The Christians get mad when I point out their hateful, cruel Jesus.

When they say things like, "Jesus was into love and charity."

Uh, no, actually there is a LOT of stuff he said that was cruel,angry and hateful, and they are busy ignoring those verses. Because the Bible is a horrid mess of village gossip, lies, a bit of poetry and a lot of psychotic god actions.

[iris27]

87. Why does no one do a search before posting?

Seriously, this question is asked and answered at least once a month around here.

[deacon_sephiroth]

89. do not feed the trolls n/t