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tiny elvis Donating Member (619 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 03:38 AM
Original message
Something Chris Hedges wrote
Those who resist—the doubters, outcasts, renegades, skeptics and rebels—rarely come from the elite. They ask different questions. They seek something else—a life of meaning. They have grasped Immanuel Kant’s dictum, “If justice perishes, human life on Earth has lost its meaning.” And in their search they come to the conclusion that, as Socrates said, it is better to suffer wrong than to do wrong. This conclusion is rational, yet cannot be rationally defended. It makes a leap into the moral, which is beyond rational thought. It refuses to place a monetary value on human life. It acknowledges human life, indeed all life, as sacred. And this is why, as Arendt points out, the only morally reliable people when the chips are down are not those who say “this is wrong,” or “this should not be done,” but those who say “I can’t.”

http://www.truthdig.com/report/page2/finding_freedom_in_handcuffs_20111107/

is life sacred or cheap?
what do veterans of imperial wars think?

is hedges talking about a different way of knowing?
can one rationally demonstrate that life is (all important, uniquely privileged in consideration)?

could there be an objective morality not subject to reason?

i have a doubt
but our nimble reason is subject to some morals which come from something independent of ciphers, analysis, hermeneutics

is life all important and uniquely deserving of reverence, even above gods and high ideals
or is life commodifiable?
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Laluchacontinua Donating Member (277 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 03:58 AM
Response to Original message
1. Are you asking the "should" or the "is"?
Because it's obvious that monetary values are placed on life daily, that life is commodified, and that the majority of people BEHAVE as though they believe some lives are worth more than others. That belief is inherent in everything human beings do.
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tiny elvis Donating Member (619 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 04:24 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. the is, though my is is your should. that is, your should is my is
is the obvious good or bad or right or wrong?
someone cut van gogh's crows flying over a wheat field out of its frame,
rolled it up and tried to sell it
what is the value of the painting to you in light of its defacement and marketing?
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Laluchacontinua Donating Member (277 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 04:43 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. not sure what you're saying.
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tiny elvis Donating Member (619 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-11 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. that great painting's value to me has not been changed by the way the world treated it
is the importance of a person changed by his treatment as material?
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willing dwarf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 06:20 AM
Response to Original message
4. For wisdom on these questions
you'd be better off reading Hannah Arendt, the Socratic dialogues (written/transcribed by Plato), Soren Kierkegarde, and a few other philosophers. You won't get to the bottom of things by looking deep into Chris Hedges writing. Nothing against him, but from what I read here he's not trying assert meaning, but looking at what sources those who seek meaning use to get to it.

Read and read. Eastern thinkers of course also have excellent literature and philosophy addressing these questions.

The wisdom of others is worthwhile, but really, as Rilke observed, they are questions we each must live. Live the questions and you will find your own answers and see them reflected in the work of the philosophers and writers of the world.
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tiny elvis Donating Member (619 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-11 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. sorry that i cannot respond in the daytime
i want to know something else
i want to know whether you think that every life is more important than anything besides every other life,
whether you think that is absolute and hopefully how you justify yourself either way
human life or all life
however you wish
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willing dwarf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-11 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Interesting question!
Seems to me that with a question like this you need to define what you mean by life. For the sake of the discussion, I'll say that I see life as being that which enlivens, creates energy, engenders more life. So that goes way past human life, animal life and even plant life. There's a wonderful architect named Christopher Alexander who has written books and books looking at how buildings and towns engender life.

But anyway, assuming that life is a matter of what we recognize to be living and life giving, then the question is what we are conscious of having life, and is there life beyond that which we recognize as living?

I feel like it is our prime directive to discover the shared being with all that is, that as we move from a sense of otherness to unity with the stranger or strange being in doing this we are really living and engendering life. It's a little obscure, but essentially it's the thesis/antithesis dialectic at work, where the wall between subject/self and object/other breaks down and the two become one. United this way, then all life becomes unified, and sacred.

I have the sense that if we could re-member ourselves completely, all being would be unified past the point of separation and we would simply be. In such a state, there would be no otherness, and past and future would cease to appear real. All would simply be in a completed state of now...

But there seems to be a fascinating wobble in the cosmos which makes us continue to move, change, discover ourselves and become... and this movement around the wobbling lilting center of it all is the thing we call life. It's a sacred dance I believe, and all its parts reflect the whole of the divine.
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 07:13 AM
Response to Original message
5. Hedges is telling us that the corporations we work for are hiding murder behind bureaucracy.
Edited on Tue Nov-08-11 07:30 AM by Jim__
A glass tower filled with people carefully selected for the polish and self-assurance that come with having been formed in institutions of privilege, whose primary attributes are a lack of consciousness, a penchant for deception and an incapacity for empathy or remorse. The curious onlookers behind the windows and we, arms locked in a circle on the concrete outside, did not speak the same language. Profit. Globalization. War. National security. These are the words they use to justify the snuffing out of tiny lives, acts of radical evil. Goldman Sachs’ commodities index is the most heavily traded in the world. Those who trade it have, by buying up and hoarding commodities futures, doubled and tripled the costs of wheat, rice and corn. Hundreds of millions of poor across the globe are going hungry to feed this mania for profit. The technical jargon, learned in business schools and on trading floors, effectively masks the reality of what is happening—murder. These are words designed to make systems operate, even systems of death, with a cold neutrality. Peace, love and all sane affirmative speech in temples like Goldman Sachs are, as W.H. Auden understood, “soiled, profaned, debased to a horrid mechanical screech.”

We seemed to have lost, at least until the advent of the Occupy Wall Street movement, not only all personal responsibility but all capacity for personal judgment. Corporate culture absolves all of responsibility. This is part of its appeal. It relieves all from moral choice. There is an unequivocal acceptance of ruling principles such as unregulated capitalism and globalization as a kind of natural law. The steady march of corporate capitalism requires a passive acceptance of new laws and demolished regulations, of bailouts in the trillions of dollars and the systematic looting of public funds, of lies and deceit. The corporate culture, epitomized by Goldman Sachs, has seeped into our classrooms, our newsrooms, our entertainment systems and our consciousness. This corporate culture has stripped us of the right to express ourselves outside of the narrowly accepted confines of the established political order. It has turned us into compliant consumers. We are forced to surrender our voice. These corporate machines, like fraternities and sororities, also haze new recruits in company rituals, force them to adopt an unrelenting cheerfulness, a childish optimism and obsequiousness to authority. These corporate rituals, bolstered by retreats and training seminars, by grueling days that sometimes end with initiates curled up under their desks to sleep, ensure that only the most morally supine remain. The strong and independent are weeded out early so only the unquestioning advance upward. Corporate culture serves a faceless system. It is, as Hannah Arendt writes, “the rule of nobody and for this very reason perhaps the least human and most cruel form of rulership.”


We need to open our eyes to that murder and then act to stop it. These corporations will have no more respect for our lives than they do for any other.



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tiny elvis Donating Member (619 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-11 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. reply #6 goes for you, too nt
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