My Road to Atheism Was a Long One.

[Taverner]

I would suggest that we are all on this road, with the eventual goal being the rejection of all gods, theology and faith for reason.

Some of us have just begun this road. Some of us haven't started it, and some of us have reached the eventual destination.

Let me say nothing was more freeing than knowing there is no Hell or Heaven where I am sent after death.

There was nothing more freeing than knowing that my life, is like any other life, and that we are lucky to be alive, not being tested for some future date.

There was nothing more freeing than knowing that critical thought brings many more epiphanies than faith.

I do not expect all of you to understand this. In fact, I expect some of you to react with anger, some with indifference, some with acceptance and some with utter revulsion.

Your road is your road. There is no Buddy Christ walking down this path with you. There may be people you love, who are also on their roads. But you are alone on this road.

And that is a good thing.

Peace.

[hlthe2b]

1. Dog is God...

Just accept it. ;)

[Taverner]

2. In dog we trust

I believe in dog because I can shout "here girl!" and lo and behold, there is dog.

[PassingFair]

12. It IS freeing...

[MikeH]

20. This is the big problem I have with finally being an atheist

There is no God. Our existence is without purpose.

We are adrift in an uncaring void indifferent to all our mortal toil.

In the end nothing we do matters.

If this is true then, for instance, particularly given the fact that I am 60 years old and do not have any children, I don't see any reason that I ought to spoil my happiness in this life by agonizing and worrying myself about how global warming, threats to the planet's sustainability, and environmental degradation are going to affect people after I myself am dead and gone. These problems sometimes seem very overwhelming.

It would seem that believing that there is no God, and that our existence is without purpose, and that in the end nothing we do matters would be very freeing to somebody in the top 1% who might be able to derive much happiness and pleasure by enjoying things that the rest of us are never going to be able to enjoy, and whose happiness and pleasure might even be enhanced by realizing that they are able to enjoy what they enjoy by screwing the rest of us in the 99%. If they are able to get away with it all their lives, and if this life is all there is, then why not? Why should they bother themselves with scruples about morality and justice and concern with those less well off than themselves? Why not live by the Ayn Randian philosophy of selfishness?

For most of us, most of the time, doing good because it is the right thing to do usually works. We are usually in fact rewarded in that we are able to get along better with our fellow humans, and in the long run are more likely to obtain what we really want and need. And most of us, most of the time will usually find ourselves in some kind of trouble when we do something that we know is "wrong".

However many in the 1% are able to get away with not caring about morality, or "right" and "wrong"; such things are for us "little people".

And for me I have a hard time being motivated or having any incentive to be concerned about the effects of things like global warming on people after I myself am dead and gone if there is no God and our existence is without purpose and nothing we do really ultimately matters. Even if I might have a desire to do the right thing on behalf of people after I am gone, I might have a hard time really following through on such a desire if the problems which are going to affect people after I am gone seem very huge and overwhelming, and with seemingly little I can do about them myself.

For these reasons, which would seem to be the logical conclusion if one accepts atheism, and from believing this present life is all there is, I find that I myself cannot finally be an atheist, and cannot finally accept as a certainty or near-certainty that this present life is all there is, and that there is no life after this present life.

I realize that my personal feelings are not proof of anything, and I realize that other people have different personal feelings on the matter, but my own personal feeling is that if there is anything at all to our sense of right and wrong and justice and fairness, then there just has to be something after this present life. I find depressing the thought that after I, or anybody else, dies, that is it, there is nothing afterward, and particularly that there is no hope of justice for those who receive the bad breaks in this present life. And I hate to think that all our good gifts and experiences and our qualities of character are of value only for this short life.

I consider it to be a serious possibility, and not an absurdity, that our reason and our reasoning ability, and our moral sense and our sense of right and wrong, might come from or be rooted in an intelligence higher and greater than our own. This higher intelligence might or might not be like the God as envisioned by Christians or other theists.

I used to be a Christian; however I found that my being a Christian and my supposedly having a "personal relationship with Jesus Christ" had been of no help to me in enabling me to deal with any source of pain, frustration, unhappiness, or distress in my life, or with any difficult issue or circumstance. I also very definitely have had and still have problems with believing that this particular book, the Bible, is the "inspired Word of God", or is any more "infallible" or "inerrant" than any other book on the planet. I have written about this many times in other posts.

I would now consider myself to be closer to being a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism">Deist than anything else, and just on the believing side of agnostic (i.e. at 3 on the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrum_of_theistic_probability#Dawkins.27s_formulation">Dawkins scale, where 1 = strong theist, and 7 = strong atheist). Deists consider it rational to believe that the universe had a creator whom they regard as being God, but among other things do not accept any alleged revelation from God, such as the Bible or the Koran, as actually being such, and I am very strongly with them about that.

I consider it to be a very definite and serious possibility that the near-death experiences which we hear about just might possibly be manifestations of a life that goes beyond this present life. However I myself cannot speak with any authority about such experiences. I myself have never had a near-death experience (and I don't think it would be wise to wish for one!) or any other experience which might indicate the reality of anything "supernatural" or "paranormal", nor do I know of anybody I know personally having had any such experience.

In short, I have some problems with going all the way with atheism, and consider myself to be leaning toward a belief at least in some intelligence higher and greater than human intelligence, which might be like what we think of as God, and from whom we might have derived our own intelligence. I also realize that my reasoning is fallible, and that I might be wrong or mistaken in my leaning. For instance my leaning is based on some philosophical arguments (as well as personal feelings), and is not backed up by anything of which I have definite knowledge or personal experience.

One thing that for me is very freeing is that I can speculate, but that I can say "I don't know", and don't feel that I have to know or have to have "the answers" to everything. There are some things which I can and do know, and there are some things about which I have very definite convictions, but there are other things about which I can and have to accept uncertainty.

Another thing that I find very freeing is the realization that whatever is true in this matter is true, and the truth is not affected by what I or anybody else might think, believe, hope for, or wish for. (This is unlike the outcome of an election, or the enactment of any matter of public policy! The truth about God or about life after death is not up for a vote!)

[PassingFair]

24. Maybe you'll like this take better:

http://cdnimg.visualizeus.com/thumbs/5c/89/agnosticism,atheism,god,marcus,aurelius-5c89ee187d386d2ac30a048ec09eccdf_h.jpg

To me, a large part of my atheism is about acceptance.

I accept that this is, in all probability, all we have.
I don't remember being in a "state" BEFORE I was born,
and I don't have any beliefs about what will happen
after I die.

My life is INFUSED with as much meaning as I can give it.

The fact that we are all "terminal" just makes every day MORE meaningful to me.

I have no inclination to construct a "creator" myth in my mind, or have one
read to me, or preached to me.

I can look at my dog lapping water and think, "This is enough" and actually
be happy.

I am HAPPY most of the time. I am only THANKFUL, however, when SOME ONE
or SOME THING does something for me or others.

On edit:

If you haven't read Carl Sagan's book "The Demon-Haunted World...Science as a Candle in the Dark",
you might like it.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519oGbGHO5L._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg

[MikeH]

25. Thanks. Yes, you are right; I do like the quote by Marcus Aurelius

"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."
— Marcus Aurelius

These seem to cover the possibilities, and seem to be very good advice about an attitude to take toward life and living which takes into account uncertainty regarding the reality of God (or of gods; here it does not make any difference whether singular or plural) and of life after this present life.

Regarding the first possibility mentioned by Marcus Aurelius, I find it very interesting to note that in the accounts of life reviews that sometimes accompany near-death experiences (whatever they might actually indicate), as reported in books by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Moody">Raymond A. Moody and elsewhere, the reviews focus on the deeds a person has done, the motives of the deeds, and the effects of the deeds on others. The person's religion, religious beliefs, or theology do not matter at all. One of Moody's books makes note of a former seminary student who reports that during his NDE he came to see what a stuck-up ass he had been with all his theology, and his looking down on anyone who wasn't a member of his denomination or who didn't subscribe to the theological beliefs that he did.

Regarding the second possibility enumerated by Marcus Aurelius, I consider the God as believed in by fundamentalist Christians, and as preached by people like Billy Graham, Pat Robertson, and others, to definitely fall into the category of being unjust, and actually an evil, arbitrary tyrant. This God sends people to hell for all eternity if they happen to miss their chance to "accept Jesus Christ" in this lifetime, or if they happen to guess wrong by being an atheist or by adhering to a religion other than Christianity. This God also sends a murder victim to hell if the victim happens to be "unsaved", i.e. has not "accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior". However this God will let the murderer into heaven if the murderer later "repents" and "accepts Jesus Christ".

Even if I might have accepted Jesus Christ and being "saved" for myself (which I did once), I could never accept having the terrible thought in the back of my mind that OTHERS are either "saved" or "unsaved", and go to hell for all eternity if they happen to die "unsaved", and I could never accept the duty and obligation, imposed by Christ himself and preached by people like Billy Graham, to tell others about Christ with that thought in the back of my mind and motivated by that concern. I cannot think of a more tyrannical demand than the demand to do so.

Again I regard the God as preached by people like Billy Graham to be arbitrary, evil, unjust, tyrannical, and despicable, and not worthy of worship, and certainly not one I want to tell others about!

I have not read Carl Sagan's book The Demon-Haunted World but I have heard good things about it, and might want to pick it up and read it some time.

[mike_c]

3. mine was exceedingly short....

As far as I can recall, I have ALWAYS rejected deism and supernatural thinking. I was born this way. My family was/is evangelical christian-- my parents left the southern baptist church because it is "too liberal." I was surrounded by religion as a child. I never believed it for a minute.

[Taverner]

6. That would have been nice...

I am the descendant of many Calvinist Preachers. Grandpa, Brother and Great-Grandpa were/are all Calvinist Preachers.

I was sent to Evangelical Junior High. It damaged me irreparably.

If only I hadn't wasted so much time trying to believe, I might have accomplished more.

But you can't make yourself believe.

This is what I tell them, and they understand.

[DontTreadOnMe]

4. My Atheism came rather young, when I was 15

Religion is the way mankind defines morality. And there is nothing wrong with that, but I came to realize that most of all the major religions have good aspects. So it was easy for me to see that there can't be just one religion and one God.

I live my life knowing that when I die... I lived in "Heaven" while I was alive, and that life is what you make it. There is no after life. There is just life. Don't waste it.

[Auggie]

5. I was about 8...

but even before then I questioned. It just sounded bogus.

[handmade34]

7. my road

ended at seminary... studying at seminary was an extremely pivotal point in my life; very positive and life altering. intense study helped to understand that Jesus' message was "Life is a bitch and we need to help each other along the way!"

[Taverner]

8. "Life is a bitch and we need to help each other along the way!"

I can buy that

And it IS up to us, not some twisted process that resembles our fathers, but us.

[handmade34]

9. although

I used that line at a job interview once and they didn't call me back! ;-)

[Taverner]

10. Well fuck them, I always lie during interviews

"Why yes, I have experience with X!"

"Of course I work well with others!"

They ask the questions, they deserve to be lied to...

[Kurmudgeon]

16. A bearer of false witness, eh? You think that is commendable?

[Taverner]

18. Only when dealing with Capitalism

Capitalism is so evil, the only way you can survive is to play along with its evilness

[NMMNG]

21. You seem to

:shrug:

[Fumesucker]

11. It was confirmation classes that confirmed my atheism for me..

I had questions that no one would or could remotely answer to my satisfaction.

It took quite a few years after that before I knew the name for what I was.

[canoeist52]

13. And some of us would be in complete agreement with you.

You've reflected my views about life exactly. Thanks for a thoughtful post.

[Odin2005]

14. I realized I was an Atheist at 16.

By "realized" I mean that is when It hit me that I really didn't in my heart believe all that theological nonsense I was taught in Sunday School and Confirmation at my Mom's Lutheran church.

[Taverner]

15. You have a better ability to see through bullshit than I do...

I wish I had that ability sooner...

[trotsky]

17. Took me about 5 years longer than that.

Certainly started having my doubts as a teenager, but I so desperately *wanted* to believe that I tried not to think about it and just went through the motions, hoping eventually that nagging voice telling me "this is all bunk!" would go away.

But it never did. And once I got to college, took a philosophy and a religion course, and later encountered my first essay from Robert Ingersoll, that got me over the hump. Easily.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

22. I came to the realization at about the same age

But it wasn't a good experience for me. I thought there was something wrong with me, that I was "broken".

It took years of therapy to rid myself of the demons created by my harsh Mormon upbringing.

[DerekG]

19. Bear in mind: Not all of us atheists/agnostics were raised fundamentalist

I'm an agnostic with nothing but good memories of my childhood in a moderate, close-knit Lutheran family and church. There was no fear; no morbid talk of Hell. My center of reality was the just and compassionate Christ.

Accordingly, my loss of faith was not liberating; it was just a sad fact of life. We're (probably) alone in the universe. I do wish there was a reality beyond our own, but I doubt there is. So it goes.

[Deep13]

23. Mine too. It took years to deconstruct the programming.

I don't "believe" in atheism as a religion. I don't worship myself. I'm not angry at god. And while I believe in many things, none of them is divine. And I am free from the mental straight jacket--something some feel they can't live without--and I am at home in the universe.

Some will object that I quote Marx who inspired, but was not responsible for, mass violence in the 20th century. Take him how you will, but I find this quotation to be moving and reassuring.

"... Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d'honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.

"Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.

"Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers on the chain not in order that man shall continue to bear that chain without fantasy or consolation, but so that he shall throw off the chain and pluck the living flower. The criticism of religion disillusions man, so that he will think, act, and fashion his reality like a man who has discarded his illusions and regained his senses, so that he will move around himself as his own true Sun. . . "

Marx

[GliderGuider]

26. By contrast, my road to atheism was a very short one.

I was born to scientistically atheist parents, with atheist grandparents on my mother's side. The existence of god was never a serious topic for debate around our dinner table, though much else was. I was an atheist from the git-go.

My long road was the path to the realization that I had thrown out the baby with the bath-water. It took me 55 years to realize that I needed what I call "direct experience of the numinous" to be a whole, functioning human being. It was a very hard multi-year struggle after that moment to free myself from the proscriptions about spiritual experience that I'd absorbed around that dinner table.

There still aren't any gods in my life, but I'm finally free of the artificial boundaries of my well-meaning parents' beliefs, and free to choose my own path.

[Taverner]

27. My question is: How do you know the numinous is in fact that...

...and not just the result of misperception?

[GliderGuider]

28. Who cares? I'm not trying to sell it to anybody.

My perceptions do just fine when I'm after personal value.

[Taverner]

29. That's fine - I'm just asking

If it gives you strength and it hurts no one, go ahead

I'm just asking how you "know"

[GliderGuider]

30. "Know" is an odd word.

I find that I need objective evidence if I'm going to "believe" something. I seem to "believe" with my thoughts, and "know" with my feelings. When I've encountered what seemed to me to be the numinous, or the collapse of observer, the observed and the observing into a void there was no question at all about it. I "just knew" - if that makes any sense.