What are some of the positive things atheists can say about religions, and

[MarkCharles]

the value they have in our current world.

I will begin with a few examples.

Religions give otherwise isolated people a sense of fellowship and community. Religious people do positive good works for the elderly, the infirm, the sick, the disabled. Religious institutions have slated part of their aims and weekly activities to actually bringing some sunshine into the lives of less than fortunate people. Soup kitchens, home visits, tutoring children, volunteer groups going out and visiting folks, one on one. I have to hand it to religious folks,they DO do some good for their fellow humankind, in an organized fashion.

The very act of getting together in person with other humans during one's week is a positive aspect of religion. I call that the social benefit of religion, in whatever form that takes. Some religious people give unselfishly of themselves to others, and I appreciate and salute that kind of helping-hand nature of people who band together under one supposed set of religious beliefs.

That's a value that I see to religion, one of a very few, but a value, nonetheless.

Any other atheist have something good to add?

[GodlessBiker]

1. Wait. Positive things to say about religions or religious people?

[MarkCharles]

3. NO, Not specific people, or people who are religious in general, but the ...

value of "religions" as they exist in the world today. Religions as an organizing force, what is positive about that?

There have to be a few positive reasons, otherwise, without a single positive reason to exist, religions would not exist.

[GodlessBiker]

28. But you cite religious people doing positive good things. Why include them...

if you are referring to religions?

[MineralMan]

2. Behavior is an individual characteristic. It's independent of religion.

So, I can't answer your question. Some people who are religious do things that benefit their society. Some do not. The same may be said of atheists.

My only concern is with how people behave, not with what they believe.

[MarkCharles]

7. I would have to agree with you in general. But we, as atheists, agnostics, or

just plain skeptics must admit that the nature of religions is to organize people into groups for some POSTITIVE reasons, as well as all the negative things we can say about the flawed belief systems that draw them together.

So, my question to you: are we being too harsh on "people who are religious do things that benefit their society"? Are most people involved in a certain religion "people who are religious do things that benefit their society"?

[MineralMan]

10. I am an atheist. I do not agree that I "must admit" anything.

Atheism implies nothing. I'm not part of any group. I am myself only.

[Deep13]

29. Except that what people believe governs what they do. nt

[laconicsax]

4. Religion is excellent at controlling people and regulating their thoughts.

Is that positive enough?

[ret5hd]

6. goddamnit! you beat me!

[dtexdem]

5. Why ask about saying positive things about religions?

How about saying the things about spirituality, which can have a perfectly secular interpretation -- e.g., ways of relating to the universe, ways of relating to others (including helping them), ways of finding meaning, sources of ethics, and so on.

Then note how religions can play such spiritual roles.

[MarkCharles]

9. Perhaps you are three or four threads ahead of me. My purpose in this

thread was to point out that not everything about religion is "wrong" from the point of view of atheists, agnostics, skeptics, and simply non-believers. In other words, we have an ability to see the good and the bad in the concepts and institutions of society that we call "religions".

[bowens43]

8. apparently the threat of eternal damnation

keeps some of the deranged from running amok , raping and murdering.....

yes, I have heard religious folks say that with out the threats from god there would be no morality and rape and murder would be a-ok

[tridim]

11. What are some of the positive things religions have said about atheists?

"You're going to hell" is not positive, even if it's bullshit.

I guess I failed the spirit of the post, sorry. Some religious people are nice. Does that count?

[raccoon]

48. You beat me to the post! nt

[trotsky]

12. Allow me to let you in on a little secret:

Atheists do all those good things too. I don't see why doing them because of one's religion makes it special or better.

That's my opinion.

[MarkCharles]

13. I would certainly agree with you there! I'm not debating that.

We folks who are free thinkers, skeptics, atheists, whatever, do most of our good works outside of religion.

But we have to be honest, we have to admit, religious organizations do, indeed, do good stuff, too.

That's all I am saying.

The power to organize groups into "do-good-er" organized actions in a small, isolated farming town in the midwest, or in the inner cities, it's all commendable, and we atheists are willing to acknowledge that, although we will do our stuff with other organizations, good CAN BE DONE by religions, in the service of other, less fortunate members of humankind.

Now, back to my question: is there anything ELSE of positive human value religions actually do?

[trotsky]

14. I do not understand your point.

"We" don't have to admit that, because "we" haven't denied it. The most common sentiment among atheists that I read and encounter is not that religion does NO good, but that the bad significantly outweighs the good - and that religion isn't even necessary to do the good in the first place.

That's my opinion.

[MarkCharles]

17. Well, maybe I'm not stating it specifically, because I'm just asking a question.

I agree with you, but is there anything ELSE of human value that religions do? Other than convince people of fables in order to organize them for doing something good, other than keeping hundreds of millions r billions in history from tackling challenging intellectual questions about their lives.

I just wonder if there's something we all should acknowledge other than that.

[trotsky]

19. You could probably scour the Internet and find plenty of stories about religion doing good.

The fact that you're an atheist (right?) means that you've decided religion doesn't have enough redeeming qualities for you to follow one. I think you've already answered your own question, but again, That's my opinion.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[valerief]

15. Religion undermines critical thinking and allows despots to rule. nt

[LeftishBrit]

16. It is a comfort to many people.

In particular, the thought of life after death for yourself and for loved ones can save a sick or bereaved person from despair.

As you say, people often help others and do good things in the cause of their religion, and with the help of their religious community. Many atheists also help each other and do good things in other social causes, and with the help of other types of community. I will not knock anything - religious or nonreligious - which aids action in a good cause!

More generally, I suspect that from an evolutionary perspective religion is part of our general human tendency to search for causes - which ultimately is the source of much learning and knowledge. I am not implying that religion is itself the main source of knowledge (and in some cases, it gets in the way of knowledge); but it is an offshoot of the same human tendency that is responsible for much of our knowledge-gain.

[Angry Dragon]

18. Why should they??

[msongs]

20. some nice art and music. Michelangelo would LOVE computers! nt

[cleanhippie]

26. People did those things, not religion. Religion merely provided the subject matter.

[Jim__]

22. "Universal features of a species demand a Darwinian solution." - Richard Dawkins.

From The God Delusion (Houghton-Mifflin 2006 p 166):

Though the details differ across the world, no known culture lacks some version of the time-consuming, wealth-consuming, hostility-provoking rituals, the anti-factual, counter-productive fantasies of religion. ... Universal features of a species demand a Darwinian solution.

Dawkins, of course, goes on to reject the idea that religion is a favorable adaptation - but he has no direct evidence. The only real evidence that we have is that, based on Dawkins claim, religion is a universal feature of human culture. Any honest analysis of the advantages of religion has to consider the possibility that it offers society a survival advantage.

[trotsky]

27. Racism/xenophobia is also a universal feature of human culture.

It has followed us since the earliest days of primitive tribalism.

Should an honest analysis of the advantages of xenophobia consider the possibility that it offers society a survival advantage?

[Jim__]

37. If you can find a neanderthal, ask him if xenophobia serves a survival function.

Of course, we could substitute any number of human groups that have been slaughtered by foreigners for neanderthal.

Yes, xenophobia is most likely an inherent trait in humans. If it is, sheer denial will not serve any positive purpose. Rational analysis may help us to more successfully live with this trait.

[trotsky]

38. You do the same thing with a neanderthal and religion, mmkay?

But that's a red herring, and you know it.

You are implying that because something is universal (or near-universal) in human cultures, not only must it have conferred a selective advantage, it is a positive thing and we should refrain from criticizing it (which is what you would have us do for religion).

My example is equally as valid as yours when it comes to a near-universal human (or human societal) trait, but serves as a giant, honking counter-example to the notion that just because something may have conferred a selective advantage in the past does not mean that item should be granted special status or respect.

[Jim__]

40. No. I'm saying denial is stupid; analysis is not.

[trotsky]

41. Which is exactly what Dawkins does in his book.

So what's your beef?

[Jim__]

43. Dawkins merely speculates in his book.

He doesn't know whether or not religion confers a survival advantage. At this time, no one knows. But, according to Dawkins, we have to consider the possibility. That consideration has to be more than speculation.

As to my beef, it's only in your head.

[trotsky]

44. You haven't actually read the book, have you?

But even given your incorrect summation, what exactly would satisfy you that the consideration given has been "more than speculation"?

[Jim__]

45. Yes, I have.

Analysis would have to at least attempt to find out why religion is universal or near-universal (I'm not sure Dawkins is correct in his assessment) throughout human culture; whether there were non-religious cultures that did not survive and why. Dawkins speculates that there may be a genetic basis for some behaviors and that these behaviors lead to religion. If we are to accept that, we need to know what the genetic-based behaviors are and how they lead to religious behavior - knowing doesn't mean coming up with plausible explanation - it means getting the facts.

[trotsky]

46. So apart from interviewing your Neanderthal friend,

how do you propose to do what you criticize Dawkins for not doing?

[Jim__]

50. You do realize this is a subject that is being actively researched.

If you're curious as to how the research is done, literature is easily accessible.

[trotsky]

52. If that's how you want to back off your claims, that's OK.

I wasn't really expecting much from you other than Dawkins bashing anyway.

[Silent3]

39. Offers or *offered* a survival advantage

Evolution needs time to play out, especially in a long-lived, low birth rate species like humans. Any survival advantages of religion, whatever they might be, might be fading or long gone at this point. We even might have created an environment for ourselves where religion is now counterproductive.

Further, advantageous doesn't necessarily imply factually correct. A child's belief in Santa Claus, if it inspires good behavior and getting homework done so that Santa brings presents, might provide an advantage over non-belief when it comes to education and parental rewards, but the advantage of the belief would have no bearing on the reality of Santa Claus.

[Jim__]

42. We do analysis because we don't know the answer.

I'm not sure what role "factually correct" plays with respect to behaviors that confer a survival advantage. If religion gives a group a survival advantage over a non-religious group, then is that survival advantage a fact? Is ritual group dance "factually correct"?

[Silent3]

49. I didn't say it played a role in the survival advantage...

...I was merely trying to make clear the important distinction between the fact that something works and the specifics of the thing that works being facts.

[pnorman]

23. Karl Marx:

“Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.”

[Deep13]

30. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people...

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions.

The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.

Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers on the chain not in order that man shall continue to bear that chain without fantasy or consolation, but so that he shall throw off the chain and pluck the living flower. The criticism of religion disillusions man, so that he will think, act, and fashion his reality like a man who has discarded his illusions and regained his senses, so that he will move around himself as his own true Sun. Religion is only the illusory Sun which revolves around man as long as he does not revolve around himself.

It is, therefore, the task of history, once the other-world of truth has vanished, to establish the truth of this world. It is the immediate task of philosophy, which is in the service of history, to unmask self-estrangement in its unholy forms once the holy form of human self-estrangement has been unmasked.

Thus, the criticism of Heaven turns into the criticism of Earth, the criticism of religion into the criticism of law, and the criticism of theology into the criticism of politics.

[NMMNG]

24. It provides comfort and purpose to some people

who don't seem to find it elsewhere. It can provide a moral framework for some extrinsically motivated people.

[LARED]

25. Why do you limit religions benefits to

"otherwise isolated people"?

I'm pretty sure all people can get a sense of fellowship and community via a religious organization.

[rrneck]

31. It feels good to cooperate.

Religion helps create that feeling. A group of people who are emotionally in sync can get more done and improve their chance of survival.

Religion doesn't seem to jump the shark until God gets property. That's when it seems to get ugly.

[Odin2005]

32. IMO for SOME people it is a necessay step...

to get out of, say, violent inner-city gang culture. I noticed that "finding religion" is something very common among people who have risen themselves out of gangs and inner-city violence, apparently the authoritarian morality helps in that respect.

The problem comes in advancing beyond that authoritarian word-view.

[laconicsax]

35. IIRC, at least one study shows that music lessons have the same benefit. n/t

[dmallind]

33. really cool buildings? nt

[beam me up scottie]

34. I love the gargoyles at Notre Dame de Paris.

Sadly all of my photos of them burnt up in a house fire.

[deacon_sephiroth]

36. I'll second (or third) that

I'm in England for a few years and I have to admit that most of the really neat, really old buildings aside from castles are cathedrals. I've enjoyed them all despite being a militant atheist (yeah I said it). Sometimes they are good for a lugh but always impressive to look at. I was going to just post the word "nothing" but I saw your post and had to reflect on the cool buildings.

[Deep13]

47. People can leave them.

Well here they can. In places where religious authority is still strong, they can't.

[frogmarch]

51. Christianity has helped

keep my fundy in-laws from killing me for being an atheist. A few of them told me they don’t think offing me would be worth spending eternity in hell for having broken the Thou Shalt Not Kill commandment.

Oh, wait, the reason they hate me in the first place is because of religion.

Well, hmmm...I can’t think of anything good to say about religion. Some religious people are good people, but religion itself is not.

[qazplm]

53. religion provides comfort

to billions of people, that's a pretty good thing. It also provides a set of moral rules for a lot of people and depending upon the set of rules they adopt, those rules can be good, mediocre, or horrible. Religion gives people peace about death, and as an agnostic, I envy that.