Delighting in Hell.

[MarkCharles]

"I suspect that some Christians experience a sense of sadness from their conviction that the vast majority of the world's people are destined for the hell they imagine. But there is another group of Christians who does not seem to feel this way at all. This group of Christians, a group which I have repeatedly encountered throughout my life, actually seems to delight in the thought of people suffering in their hell. I am sure you have seen the gleam in their eyes when they talk of their hell. You may have even noticed the joy they seem to experience at the prospect of others who do not agree with them suffering for eternity."...

"Belief in hell reveals plenty about Christian morality and the inner workings the Christian mind. I don't know about you, but I'm not likely to let my guard down around those who delight in the prospect of my eternal suffering."

http://www.atheistrev.com/2011/11/i-suspect-that-some-christians.html


_______________________________

"In my experience, most Christians who want to persuade you to believe in their god will eventually mention hell. Some will go there immediately; others will take some time to get there. But eventually, they all seem to get there.

One of these days, I'll have to indulge the Christian a bit and allow this absurd argument to play out a bit longer than I usually do. I imagine it going something like this"

"If I'm understanding you correctly, you are saying that I should believe in - not just believe in but also worship - a god who would torture me forever simply for doubting that he/she/it exists."

http://www.atheistrev.com/2011/05/beware-of-christian-hell.html

[rpannier]

1. Jimmy Swaggart

That was his schtick until he got caught with prostitutes
His eyes lit up when he talked about people going to hell

[OffWithTheirHeads]

13. I was in North Carolina at that time.

One of the local radio shock jocks commented that Jimmy wanted to drive all the prostitutes out of town and it must be true because he was seen with two of them in his car.:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[HubertHeaver]

32. That was Jimmy Baker of "Jimmy and Tammy Fae" fame.

The other Jimmy.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

37. and the difference is?

[HubertHeaver]

42. One is the religious shyster on your right, the other is the

religious shyster on your other right. Essentially, no difference.

[NMMNG]

2. It's your choice to burn in hell

Free will and all. That's what I've been told. That's what makes it so easy for them to take delight in the suffering of others. As far as they're concerned the people who are going to burn choose to do so, and therefore deserve it.

[rug]

3. This guy has had a long obsession with hell.

"My earliest memories of religion involved fear. Like our primitive ancestors, I was afraid of the unknown. As a young child, just about everything is unknown. Added to this, I was a bit more neurotic than most. I prayed because I was afraid of what would happen if I didn't. Nobody really threatened me with hellfire and damnation; it was just the idea that if there was this invisible man in the sky with all these amazing powers, I better not disappoint him. My prayers were never about asking for crap I wanted and almost always attempts to prevent bad things from happening."

http://www.atheistrev.com/2005/05/journey-of-atheist-part-i.html

[MarkCharles]

4. How about the thousands of years of "obsession" that Christians have had?

A bit longer, I'd say.

And this guy isn't "obsessed" with Hell anymore, he's an atheist! Atheists, by and large, think that belief in a Hell is a hell in itself.

[rug]

5. A theology of hell is much different than an obsession with hell.

If I thought it was that I'd be an atheist too.

[LAGC]

7. Oh? And what, pray tell, is a theology of hell?

Sounds like nothing more than glorified grave-dancing to me.

[NMMNG]

8. If you're religious it's a "theology of hell"

If you're not it's just an obsession. :shrug:

[rug]

10. Who said that? I must have missed it.

[rug]

9. An oft-discussed topic.

Feel free to search the forum.

[MarkCharles]

11. A theology of hell? So you admit there is one?

Kind of like admitting to a virgin birth?

What the HECK is a "theology of hell", other than an obsessive and direct threat to freedom of thought?

[rug]

12. Of course there's a theology of hell.

Of course the author of the OP quoted is reacting to a rather twisted one.

[MarkCharles]

15. Does there exist a NON twisted theology of hell? If so, can you point to it?

I find the concept of any hell to be "twisted", but you are free to show me the NON-twisted "straight" theology of hell.. that you claim exists. Are you up to showing us all that NON twisted "theology of hell"?

[rug]

17. Us,

I'm sure you all are well-equipped to use The Google all by yourselves. If you need to, maybe I can drive you to the library.

[MarkCharles]

19. In other words, you cannot. End of pointless discussion of ..

any silly accusations you wish to make here.

We DU folks interested in religions and theology would all love to have the wisdom of your "knowledge" of the non twisted theology of hell that exists somewhere, but you are not able to do that with us, nor point us to any documents nor any links.

Just make outrageous statements, that's your technique and style, and be done with it, I see.

[rug]

20. If you indeed had an interest in religions and theology, you wouldn't have had to ask.

The various theologies of hell have been discussed for centuries and are easily available.

This OP post is a cartoon. Perhaps "you" prefer to discuss cartoons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHEsH0l5i9E

[MarkCharles]

21. I AM the OP! All thinking about a hell is twisted, if you had bothered to read the links.

But don't bother us with details, links, or actual facts.

You can just make any claim you want on MY thread, and we all will bow down to your boldness and believe whatever you claim.

How would I Google that claim you have made, and refuse to back up with a link? "Non twisted theology of hell"?

[rug]

22. OP is original post, not poster, and it isn't even original.

It;s excerpts from that poor guy at Atheist Revolution.

PS, the cartoon hasn;t finished yet.

[MarkCharles]

23. Sorry, there are TWO original LINKS in MY ORIGINAL POST!

Try to get the terms right, especially when you're on a DU bulletin board about 24 hours a day.

[NMMNG]

26. "Poor guy"

What is that supposed to mean?

[Silent3]

45. The point is you act like someone who is ashamed to stand up...

...for the things you supposedly believe in, that you resort to the "look it up yourself" tactic at precisely the points in a conversation where a direct answer would likely be uncomfortable and put you in a bad light.

[rug]

49. The point is it's a rather uniformed question coming from someone who boasts of being informed.

As to you, where is your evidence that "a direct answer would likely be uncomfortable and put you in a bad light".

Oh, there is none. It's just another uninformed opinion.

[MarkCharles]

50. So you are now going to give a direct answer to the question I asked you

almost a day or so ago?

That would surprise me, but I like surprises.

What exactly is a non-twisted "theology of hell"?

[rug]

51. See 48.

[Silent3]

83. You seem to so often have an excuse...

...for not providing answers when asked pointed question. Maybe now and then you could try to dazzle us with your knowledge to show directly how such a questioner doesn't know what he or she is talking about. Time and time again, however, you demonstrate that you prefer to show contempt, and leave it at that. If this was a now-and-then response, it would be one thing. I don't expect people to be infinitely patient at all times in discussions like these.

But it's your modus operandi, while substance is rare.

As to you, where is your evidence that "a direct answer would likely be uncomfortable and put you in a bad light".

The evidence is your continued avoidance of a straight answer to the hell question. Is that totally conclusive evidence? Of course not. But I stated my opinion as a guess, not a firm conclusion, which provides you the as-yet unused opportunity to prove my conjecture false.

My guess is that you're ashamed to admit straight out that you think there's a real hell, and that you think real people deserve to end up there, especially if your "theology of hell" leads to a belief that it is a place of eternal torment. Either that, or ashamed of what a wishy-washy answer you'd have to provide to wiggle out of stating a belief in hell that either isn't all that real or all that hellish.

If I'm wrong, you've now once again got all of the opportunity you need to demonstrate that fact.

[rug]

88. Dazzle? Ok.

[Angry Dragon]

46. This theology of hell you speak of, I feel you should define it in your own words

instead of demanding others do a google.
Otherwise it is just your opinion or supply links
You were the one that threw it out there so you should be the one to defend it
I have no idea what the theology of hell even means

[MarkCharles]

47. Nor do I! Funny how believers can't be direct and forthcoming about

their beliefs.

[rug]

48. Allow me.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=theology+of+hell

[MarkCharles]

52. In other words, search through the gobledygook of religious fantasy and myth

and try to make a lick of sense from it.

How nice and generous of you to ask us to waste our time exploring more religious threats and cajolery about hell.

I now see that my thread is aptly named for believers in a god.

[rug]

53. I see your point. It's a lot easier to throw bullshit out about what people believe than to learn.

Kick your feet up and post away on your laptop.

[Angry Dragon]

54. So you want me to read what other people believe and not what you believe??

So are you telling me that you believe EVERYTHING that is posted by others what the theology of hell is??

You attack others for what they post but refuse to back up anything of what you post??

I ask you an honest question and you refuse to answer it

[rug]

56. Generally, the more you know about what you're discussing, the more fruitful the discussion.

The inverse is also true.

[Angry Dragon]

58. I guess you practice the inverse

I asked you what it meant, you put it out there and it seems you are afraid to tell me and others where your thoughts are.
These others you want me to read is fine, but I am unable to question them so that fails in discussion
You are here you made a statement but want others to speak for you.
That in my mind is a huge cop-out

[MarkCharles]

59. "That in my mind is a huge cop-out" in MY mind, too.

But it could just be a simple inability to frame abstract conceptual thoughts in a coherent fashion.

I don't "know".

[rug]

60. The key phrase is "in my mind".

I have had numerous discussions on this right here. Feel free to find them.

frankly, this topic is as old and stale to me as discussions of the 1984 election.

[Angry Dragon]

61. but you had no problem bringing it up again

[rug]

62. Actually, the OP brought it up.

?imgmax=800

[Angry Dragon]

64. you brought up the 'theology of hell' I asked you to explain it

and you refuse to explain your position on the difference
of theology of hell vs obsession of hell

[rug]

72. The difference is simple.

One is a caricature, the other is a result of hundreds of years of discussion.

[LAGC]

75. Well, we'd really like to hear your caricature.

What does "hell" mean to you?

[rug]

77. I don't have a caricature. And when I see one I point it out.

Who is "we"?

[LAGC]

78. "We" meaning everyone who has been trying to get you to debate instead of dodge.

Why do you refuse to tell us what "hell" means to you?

[rug]

79. Oh, are you speaking, then, for everyone?

Get together and let me know who the authorized spokesman will be. I'll gladly respond.

[LAGC]

80. No, just the kind folks in this thread.

Why are you afraid to discuss your views? Afraid they won't stand up to scrutiny?

[rug]

81. I fear my cat more than your (whoever they are) "kind folks".

[LAGC]

82. Whatever.

Don't expect people to take you seriously when you can't even answer a simple question.

[rug]

84. Don't worry. My expectations here are quite low.

[LAGC]

85. Then why do you bother posting here at all?

You post some interesting threads that generate good discussion, and even participate in many of them, yet you won't participate here? Why?

[rug]

86. Because I find religion and theology quite interesting in all facets.

And there are some good discussions.

But my expectations are low because of the idiocy that permeates much of this forum.

E.g., I'm arguing pederasty at the moment in a thread about a vandalized church. Only took three posts. Admittedly, that's much quicker than the norm.

[darkstar3]

87. Stop baiting people and you'll find far less to lower your expectations.

And BTW: This is they 87th post on a thread about hell in which you are quite active, yet you haven't stated a single thing about what you believe on the topic. Are you going to spend all of your time here pissing on others, or will you actually deign to directly answer a question that was posed to you repeatedly?

[rug]

89. You are the master baiter. And thanks for confirming I've discussed this subject already ad nauseam.

[darkstar3]

90. Oh please. You haven't "discussed" anything.

All you've done is tell everyone that they're stupid for holding what view they do on hell. Yet you refuse, repeatedly, to express what the "correct" or "smart" view is in your mind.

[rug]

91. I'm sorry you consider anything other than agreement and high fives to be less than a discussion.

[darkstar3]

92. You know that isn't what I said. Where is your answer on the question of hell?

Until you answer questions posed to you, it's not a discussion. Right now, you're just working on a baitfest.

[MarkCharles]

55. My "point", from the first question I asked, up until now, is to ask what YOU...

can say about your beliefs in a NON-tristed "theology of hell".

So far, you cannot respond, other than the ask me to do my own research about what OTHER people have written, NOT what or how YOU define a NON twisted "theology of hell".

What is so difficult about stating your own knowledge and beliefs on the subject?

[rug]

57. See 56.

[Speck Tater]

6. It was the constant threat of hell that turned me away from religion before I even turned 7.

By the time I was 12 I knew, or at least was pretty sure, that all regions are vast con games to get people's money with threats of eternal punishment.

Unfortunately, I still have a couple family members who constantly remind me they will "pray for my soul". I tell them not to waste their time. If there is a god (and I'm not sure either way on that question) he/she/it certainly, and I do mean certainly, is not the ridiculous Judea-Christian psychotic lord of pain and suffering version of deity.

[safeinOhio]

14. Long history of Universalist.

Just not mentioned much.

http://www.christianuniversalist.org/articles/history.html

[rug]

18. Good link. Lots of info there.

Thanks.

[MarkCharles]

39. No Universalist believes in a hell. Few if any believe in a god.

Your point?

[safeinOhio]

43. You are thinking of Universalist Unitarians

of which I am, and yes at least half of the members of my church do not believe in god. However we are more than willing to let others believe in anything they wish. The original Universalist felt there was a loving god that would never send anyone to a hell. The Unitarians believed in only one god and no trinity. The two combined in the 60s into todays Unitarian Universalist that are basically secular humanist.

[libinnyandia]

16. One thing I believe about God is we can't even begin to

understand Him. If you truly believe he will allow millions of non-Christains and many Chrsitians to to suffer an eternity of suffering, you had better give away all your possessions and sacrifice your life to converting non-believers. If you spend your life in luxury, safely living in the midst of other Christians, when you go before your Judge you will have to explain why.

[Tyrs WolfDaemon]

24. It seems to me that anyone that delights in the idea of people roasting in hell...

must have souls soo black that their own 'loving' God will use them as the wood for the fires. At least they will be in a position to watch all the 'lost' being roasted for eternity.


That is just one Heathen's opinion.

[MarkCharles]

25. The concept of a hell is the flip side of the religious coin, if you don't...

like the front side, turn it over and see the tail side.

Heads or tails, the most simple concept for any gambler, any believer in chance, any human seeking comfort in their days on Earth.

Elegant in it's simplicity, not to mention the sociopath's aspects of it. "Buy this used car today" or suffer forever when the car is no longer available. Just like voting for Nixon., ( who used to sell used cars).

[rug]

28. Tremendous insight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHEsH0l5i9E

[MarkCharles]

31. I;m beginning to think you're more of a Simpson's fan, like

Herman Cain is.

"Herman Cain references The Simpsons 'I'm a Leader, Not a Reader!'"

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/scarce/herman-cain-references-simpsons-im-leader-n

You're certainly NOT a reader. Can't even give us ONE SINGLE link to a non-twisted theology of hell.

[rug]

33. I love The Simpsons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faRlFsYmkeY&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PLA416D00A76D9C1BD

[MarkCharles]

34. The Simpsons, like Herman Cain, are entertainment for simple minded

folks.

I don't do cartoons.

[rug]

35. Lol.

You do pompous very well.

[MarkCharles]

36. Thanks, you do Simpson-minded very well.

Considering the alternatives, I prefer being "pompous" to being a fan of a cartoon character.

[WhollyHeretic]

76. You are definitely in luck then

[NMMNG]

27. Considering some of the people who insist they're going to "heaven",

"Hell" seems like a grand place. Who'd want to spend eternity with bigoted, narcissistic gits like Scott Lively, Pat Robertson, Ray Comfort and the like?

[MarkCharles]

29. Yeah, I sort of like a good warm winter, too! Of course, we all know that

a brain dead human individual does not feel pain from fire, or from ice.

Once we die, science tells us, it makes little difference if our "soul" is on a cloud with the big guy in the sky or inside a volcano. About two seconds of fires of a volcano or of hell would stop all knowledge of sensation of pain, even the pain of a hell, once we are dead, which we all get to "experience", all of us will be "brain dead" when we are dead. All of us will get there, sooner or later. Simple as that.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

30. Everyone's got to believe in something, I believe I'll have another

beer.

[freshwest]

38. Heaven and Hell coexist on Planet Earth at this very moment. I don't need prophecies.

As far as sadists and egotistical people go, religion has nothing to do with it. They'll be that way no matter what they do or don't believe.

[MarkCharles]

40. Giving a blank check to believers, are we?

[freshwest]

41. We? Who's We? I thought it was clear I'm not in either camp, and don't argue with those in either.

If you MUST see the world as divided between the two...

Then, sure, I can write worthless blank checks for believers and non-believers. They are all the same to me.

But they don't owe me anything and I don't owe them either.

Whatever you or anyone else says, won't make me adopt a religion or an antipathy to one. I don't believe in either camp.

If you're selling a belief system, it won't work. Been there, done that. For me, it's over with. I'm not buying anyone's belief system, just expressing my opinion.

Hope you can handle that, your comment seemed to have nothing to do with mine at all.

[spin]

44. Some feel that our concept of hell was invented by invented by Catholic theologians ...

Jesus' Teaching on Hell]
by Samuel G. Dawson


***snip***

Most of what we believe about hell comes from Catholicism and ignorance of the Old Testament, not from the Bible. This study will cause you to re-examine current teaching on hell and urge you to further study on what happens to the wicked after death.

I was righteously indignant when, a number of years ago, a caller uttered these words on a call-in radio show I was conducting. Perturbed by his haphazard use of Scripture, I pointed out to him and the audience, that hell couldn’t possibly be something invented by Catholic theologians because Jesus talked about it. I forcefully read some of the passages where Jesus did, and concluded that hell couldn’t possibly be the invention of an apostate church.

I now believe that hell is the invention of Roman Catholicism; and surprisingly, most, if not all, of our popular concepts of hell can be found in the writings of Roman Catholic writers like the Italian poet Dante Alighieri (1265-1321), author of Dante’s Inferno. The English poet John Milton (1608-1674), author of Paradise Lost, set forth the same concepts in a fashion highly acceptable to the Roman Catholic faith. Yet none of our concepts of hell can be found in the teaching of Jesus Christ! We get indignant at the mention of purgatory—we know that’s not in the Bible. We may also find that our popular concepts of hell came from the same place that purgatory did-Roman Catholicism. The purpose of this study is to briefly analyze Jesus’ teaching on hell (more correctly gehenna, the Greek word for which hell is given), to see whether these popular concepts are grounded therein......
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html

This essay is an interesting read. As I study the origins of Christianity I am beginning to understand that much of modern Christianity is based on pagan religion and has little to do with the actual message that Christ hoped in impart.

[Thats my opinion]

63. i get around a lot in Christian circles.

I mean a whole lot!! And I have never encountered anyone who had that idea of hell and has lived in the last couple of hundred years. But then there are religious fundamentalists I don't know. But I wonder why it is good sport to highlight them. Don't atheists have other more important things to talk about? I suppose I could major in finding the worst about any group, But so what. I refuse to throw Any Randism at you all. It would be a sad game and I won't play it.

[MarkCharles]

65. Well, here's a half dozen "Christian circles" you haven't visited in the last 10 years!!!

"According to a 2004 Gallup Poll, 70% of Americans believe in hell. Belief in hell is highest among regular churchgoers: 92% of those who attend church weekly believe in hell, as do 74% of those who attend nearly weekly.

In Christian theology, hell is the place or state into which unrepentant sinners pass after this life. Hell is generally thought to be eternal, and to include both punishment (poena sensus) and separation from God (poena damni)."

http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/beliefs/hell.htm

I'd say you live a pretty isolated life, and your "Christian circles" are pretty "liberal" and not noteworthy as the majority of Christians in the USA SAY that they believe in a hell.


...................

"Fundamentalist / Conservative / Evangelical Christian groups can generally be characterized as believing that salvation is a free gift of God. It is received by repenting and asking for forgiveness of sin, and trusting Jesus as Lord and Savior. They define Christianity as a personal and living relationship with Jesus Christ. They believe the Bible is God's inspired Word and is the basis of all truth. Most conservative Christians believe that hell is a real place that awaits anyone who does not repented of their sins and trust Jesus as Lord."

http://christianity.about.com/od/denominations/a/denominations_2.htm
..........................


http://www3.dbu.edu/jeanhumphreys/deathdying/preachinghell.htm

'When preaching hell to people of this mindset, I've found I must make four arguments.

1. Sin is slavery. I do not define sin as just breaking the rules, but also as "making something besides God our ultimate value and worth." These good things, which become gods, will drive us relentlessly, enslaving us mentally and spiritually, even to hell forever if we let them.

I say, "You are actually being religious, though you don't know it—you are trying to find salvation through worshiping things that end up controlling you in a destructive way." Slavery is the choice-worshiper's horror."

http://www3.dbu.edu/jeanhumphreys/deathdying/preachinghell.htm

...............

"The Orthodox Church holds that both Heaven and Hell are a condition of relationship with God that is either theosis or perdition,"

"The life of Hell is rendered in Holy Scripture in other terms and other expressions, such as "everlasting fire”
http://www.pelagia.org/htm/b24.en.life_after_death.07.htm

[Thats my opinion]

70. Of course the statistics you cite

are a great embarrassment. It is the same sort of thing which "proves" that racism is valid because most Americans believe in some form of it, or that torture is legitimate because most folks support it. The relationship between popular prejudices and authenticity is always far-fetched. While the thread you cite exists--and is a fat bloated thread indeed-- it is not representative of what is happening in the historic presuppositions and practices of authentic faith. So why can't we focus on that, instead of digging around in the dirt? You sound like an intelligent person. So get out of the mud and let's talk--and probably disagree--about some reputable scholarly research into the substance of Christian faith. I'd be interested in hearing about just what are your goals your r/t conversations.

[darkstar3]

71. No, you wouldn't be interested.

You've already shown repeatedly that your purpose in posting here is to shut down discussion if you can't actually shut down the board. Why should anyone believe that the questions you ask are in any way earnest?

[Mariana]

66. I'm interested to know YOUR idea of hell. Will you tell me? nt.

[MarkCharles]

68. Gladly!

There is no chance in the universe that any hell exists or ever existed, or ever will exist.

Now tell me yours.

[Mariana]

93. I want to know what TMO thinks about it,

He went on in #63 about what he and his associates DON'T believe about hell, so I want to know what he/they DO believe that is so different.

I agree with you regarding hell.

[darkstar3]

67. Please, don't tell us that your admittedly isolated California experience represents all of Xtianity

[MarkCharles]

69. California is the center of the nation, which is the center of the world, which is....

the center of the universe.


Didn't you know that?
:sarcasm:

[NMMNG]

74. Oh, but he's a preacher man, and a theologian

That makes him the authority on absolutely everything Christian, and everything religious for that matter. :eyes:

[Thats my opinion]

94. But just perhaps,

A person who has spent a lifetime inside a perspective just may have a more solid perspective than a erson who stands outside just to throw rocks. Just perhaps.

[NMMNG]

95. Just perhaps

you should stop presuming everyone who criticizes has no knowledge of that they criticize. After all, that would include you. You criticize other peoples' religion/religious positions as ardently as any atheist. You "throw rocks" just as we do. Just because you do so from your pulpit doesn't make your actions any more righteous or intelligent.

Many, if not most, atheists are former theists. Some even went to religious schools/seminaries. There are even former clergy among their ranks. It's foolish and biased to presume that atheists are ignorant of religion and therefore have nothing on which to base their criticism of it.


Get off your high horse and stop pretending you know it all. You don't. It's all Just Your Opinion.

[darkstar3]

96. Or perhaps, what you describe is an insulated existence in a homogeneous group.

[NMMNG]

73. Maybe you should expand your Christian circle

More importantly, maybe you should stop discounting anything that disagrees with your personal theology as a caricature or a lie. There are thousands of Christian denominations out there, and billions of Christians. Just because you've never heard of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that the person is lying.