Why does religion keep telling us we're bad?

[bemildred]

When I told my father I was going to Cambridge to give a talk on the question of whether humans were good or bad, he looked at me sternly over his glasses. "You know what the answer is, don't you?" Total depravity and filthy rags he was hoping I would say of our nature – the first is a primary tenet of Calvinist doctrine, and the second is a phrase from Isaiah. I was about to say that we are at our root neither good nor bad, but pulled in contrary directions with the ability to make a decision. So I knew we were in for … a discussion.

From an evolutionary perspective, considering other social species on this earth, it is remarkable that a bunch of unrelated adult males can sit on a plane together for seven hours in the presence of fertile females, with everyone arriving alive and unharmed at the end of it. We could be a lot worse than we are, according to our common notions of right and wrong. We have certainly come a long way towards becoming a co-operative, sympathetic, even loving species.

Granted, this depends on your perspective: if you're a biologist, as I am, you might notice how far we've come. If you're a theologian, perhaps the more salient realisation is how far we haven't. The meeting place between these perspectives is that we are full of conflicting tendencies and inconsistencies in our attitudes and behaviour. So we would do well to ask why this conflict exists, in addition to arguing whether we've done well or poorly in it.

At several points in our evolutionary history, sources of conflict have arisen, leading to moral tension and ambivalence. Perhaps the oldest and most significant is the fact that we as individuals have gained by looking out for ourselves in competition with others, but that we also have depended on our social groups and so gained by supporting and contributing to the stability of those groups. From this ancient situation eventually arose the tug of war between selfishness and altruism that is a common aspect of our moral experience.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/nov/22/religion-bad-evolution-religious-admonitions

:popcorn:

[gratuitous]

1. It doesn't, but don't let that stop the bigotry against people of faith

Bashing the religious is de rigeur at DU, and a perfectly acceptable prejudice, so have at.

I'm a little disappointed there wasn't mention of a "sky wizard" in the excerpt, but hopefully it's there in the full essay. Because it's sooo very clever.

[Angry Dragon]

5. .............

:popcorn:

[LadyHawkAZ]

6. Bigotry...

Twin Towers. Dr. George Tiller. Westboro Baptist. Burqas. Anders Breivik. The Lord's Resistance Army. FGM. Stonings. Branch Davidians. Bibi Aisha. George W. Bush. Would you like me to go on?

There's millions of very good, valid, human reasons for that "bashing".

And actually I prefer "sky fairy".

[leftyohiolib]

7. agreed most people here seem to be more anti-relgion the atheists

atheists have a more live and let live kind of attitude towards religion the anti-religion throw around passive-agressive mocking statements like refering to God as a "sky wizard"

[Warpy]

13. Some people hate what they see in a mirror and blame the mirror for it

Honestly, the religions that preach some sort of salvation are saving us from exactly what if not our inherent evil? The sabre toothed tigers have been gone for a very long time.

The article in the OP makes several valid points.

[Deep13]

14. That is factually wrong.

Christianity pretty must states that people are born evil and that only by accepting JC as ones savior can eternal torture be avoid--not because we deserve it, of course, but because God is so good.

And disagreeing with you doesn't make me a bigot. I don't owe your god or your beliefs anything. But then missionary religion is all about claiming the victimhood and solipsism at the same time.

[Thats my opinion]

18. Could you just look around

and have a look at what Christianity is really saying today? It won't hurt, and may even let you face up to a few prejudices. instead of telling religious people--and others--what Christianity really is, you could always listen to those who are inside the tradition.

[darkstar3]

21. I can't speak for the board, but I have spent quite a bit of time

listening to what Christianity is really saying today. Your version is not what I hear.

[NMMNG]

23. We're perfectly familiar with what Christianity is saying today

We've been listening to those "inside the tradition" for years. Just because you don't like what they're saying doesn't give you the right to pretend they're not part of your club, or to deny the very real hurt experienced by their victims.

[LAGC]

29. Most Christians don't believe the way you do.

You are definitely in the minority of mainstream Christian thought out there.

We know. We're surrounded by overwhelmingly conservative churches in our less than urban areas.

Don't make the mistake of thinking your particular community is representative of all.

[LeftishBrit]

16. Original sin is a key tenet of most branches of Christianity, and of some other religions

Mind you, it's also in essence a key tenet of much evolutionary psychology, so you don't have to be a person of faith to hold such a view.

Humans *are* capable of murderous and harmful behaviour, and most philosophies seek to explain this. Those philosophies that don't accept original sin, tend to imply that many people are corrupted by society or their negative experiences.

I don't think it's 'bigoted' to discuss or debate this issue.

[msongs]

2. fear, power, and control - if u dont believe our religion you will go to hell so give up more $$ nt

[Thats my opinion]

19. That may be somebody's religion

but many of us hardly recognize it.

[cleanhippie]

24. Thats interesting, because many if us recognize that everywhere, including inside your own posts.

[laconicsax]

26. You might do well to look outside. n/t

[dawg]

3. You have to recognize your faults before you can begin to improve yourself.

That's the basis for any self-improvement project, and religions are no different.

[struggle4progress]

28. +

[HipChick]

4. Religion is a way to control the masses...

[dtexdem]

8. Social control. Maintaining power of religious hierarchies.

Lucrative guilt-tripping.

[Bragi]

9. I presume we have to be bad so gawd can save us /nt

[emilyg]

10. I don't get told that.

[Goblinmonger]

12. What religion are you?

Christians have plenty of instances of how we are bad at nature. Christ died for our sins and all.

[geckosfeet]

11. Catholic religion, born into original sin, got to repent for Adam and Eves sins.

Give. Me. A. Break.

[Deep13]

15. marketing. step 1, create a need.

There is no need to accept the salvation some religions claim to offer if one is not damned.

[rrneck]

20. That explains the bulk of it. nt

[Thats my opinion]

17. Good, bad, or just a bundle of possibilities?

Those of us who are process theologians see in all of nature an infinite flow of "actual occasions" which build on one another. It is evolution without the perpetual escalator. It is the potential for good that excites my imagination. In the Genesis myth, after God had created everything he/she said, "it is all very good." I'm not that sure. I guess John Calvin looked around his culture and concluded that there was a bit--more than a a bit--of trash mixed in with the flowers. But his notion of original and total depravity way overputs it--in my opinion.

[cleanhippie]

25. If you, as a christian, think that Genesis is just a myth, why isn't the Resurrection a myth too?

[MarkCharles]

22. Religion, like insurance sales, creates a need, out of fear, as do Republicans

QUICK!!!! You or your spouse MAY die tomorrow!!! How will you ever live without him/her????

Same deal, sell insurance, sell religion, sell Republican fear.

It's all about the same scam and capitalization on human fears based upon ignorance, which has a line there something like THIS in their literature/talks/sales:

You will feel MORE SECURE and LESS FEARFUL if you go with our brand, our religion, our faith, our party's candidate.

Religion is very much a mirror image of sophisticated insurance marketing, or Republicanism.

[Igel]

27. "Why does religion keep telling us we're bad?"

Because religionists are no more blind than atheists.

Do atheists tell us that humans are good? Hardly. They take offense that they may not be good, even as they humbly say they're not perfect. In other words, they mostly focus on themselves, pointing out minor foibles while making sure there's a firewall between themselves and the idiots that go around maiming, killing, raping, marauding, and the like. It's unconvincing, to a large extent, because mostly the difference between the less-than-perfect and the egregiously bad is opportunity and whether self-restraint is in their own interests.

Many religionists tell us we're all bad. In a way, that's more convincing because it admits right up front that the difference between Xians and some really bad people is as much chance as due to the inner goodness of those doing the speaking. On the other hand, it's also dangerous--if we admit we're nasty, deep down inside, then it provides a sort of cover for doing nasty things. After all, if it's inborn, genetic, part of nature, how can we condemn it? (At least that's the argument made by some gay rights advocates. I don't see why one conflict of nature versus nurture, cultural norms, is of any greater import than another.)

The problem with the religionists' POV is that we're not all equally bad. Partly that's because of nurture, internalized external cultural norms. Partly it's because of biology--some genetic, some developmental. On the other hand, having that kind of "everybody needs our cultural norms" is safer than saying "some of us are good and can do what we want while others aren't and can't." Even Stalin believed that what he was doing was needed for the good of his country and, to judge from what evidence I have, considered himself a good and moral man.

[bemildred]

30. +1. nt