Dear Children, one day you will learn everything about Santa Claus...

[cleanhippie]

[Brickbat]

1. Heh. I have a friend who about this time every year gets very self-righteous about how she will not

lie to her children about Santa Claus and it takes all my control to not say something along the lines of this poster.

[cleanhippie]

3. My wife and I are perplexed about how to handle "Santa" with our 2 year old.

We plan to let "Santa" visit and bring a few small gifts, but we will not lie to her and TELL her that Santa is real. When she does start to ask, we plan to ask her questions like "What do you think?" and "Does that make sense to you?", etc. We probably won't have to deal with that until next year, but in the meantime, we plan to refer to the Santa in the mall as "Mall Santa", the Salvation Army Santa in front of the grocery as "Salvation Army Santa", etc. Hopefully she will quickly grasp the concept and "get it" sooner than later.

Its gonna be tough, but we will never lie to her and tell her Santa is "real" or threaten her with "you better be good or Santa won't bring you presents!" Honesty is the best policy, IMO.

[Brickbat]

12. I always went with "what do you think?" and answered responses with, "Well, that's what some people

think" and "Other people think..." My son, who tends to be a literal thinker, figured it out by about age seven or eight, and was not "disappointed" or felt liked we had "lied" at all. My daughter, who honestly is a little more magical in her thinking, suspects (at age nine) but will not ask straight out. Fortunately, her older brother (who is almost 13) has a kind heart and has not told her outright.

We also never used Santa as a threat. There are presents that Santa brings at Christmas, and if someone leaves something for Santa, he will take it, but that's about it. It's worked for us and it sounds like it will work for you too. A childhood without magic and make-believe would be a sad one, I think.

[cleanhippie]

13. "A childhood without magic and make-believe would be a sad one, I think."

I couldn't agree more.

Thanks for the chat.

[Brickbat]

14. And thank you, and good luck with your navigation of Santa (and everything else!) in the coming

months. :)

[Goblinmonger]

23. My wife and I vowed

that we would not lie to our kids. We gave them Santa presents but never said he was real. When the kids figured it out, we didn't lie and told them the truth. We thought it was horribly wrong to tell a kid that used logic and critical thinking to figure out he wasn't real that they were wrong.

They are fine and well adjusted (and both atheists--which to some in this forum would get them an evil label).

[Nye Bevan]

2. Are there multiple eyewitness accounts documenting the life and death of Santa?

Are most historians "reasonably certain" that Santa existed?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

[cleanhippie]

4. Huh? What eyewitness accounts document jesus' existence?

The bible certainly is not a reliable source document, and I am unaware of any extra-biblical documents that support jesus' existence.

[laconicsax]

6. No, and there aren't for Jesus either.

There are zero eyewitness (or even contemporary) accounts of Jesus; it's all hearsay from decades later.

[Nye Bevan]

10. So the many eminent historians who believe that there was a Jesus

are all dumbasses, I guess.

[cleanhippie]

11. I guess you are right.

Who are these "eminent" historians?

[laconicsax]

16. Did you forget what you asked?

You asked, "Are there multiple eyewitness accounts documenting the life and death of Santa?"

No, and there aren't for Jesus either. There are zero eyewitness (or even contemporary) accounts of Jesus; it's all hearsay from decades later.

[cleanhippie]

33. Again, who are these "eminent" histiorians?

Yet another claim by a believer that refuses to back it up with evidence.

[NMMNG]

17. There are multiple eyewitness accounts of bigfoot

Some of them even have pictures and/or video. I guess that means bigfoot is real.

[bluestateguy]

5. The poor children must wonder why Santa gives them crappy presents or none at all

and why the rich kids get all of the best presents from Santa.

[cleanhippie]

9. Not the children of parents who are honest with them.

:shrug:

[Brickbat]

15. Oh, it's the same reason Jesus lets them live in poverty and rains his blessings down on the rich.

[rug]

7. i suppose an uncritical thinker could toss the entire concept of Christianity because of Santa.

[cleanhippie]

8. An uncritical thinker could accept the entire concept of xtianity because they were told to.

(no clever comic provided)

[humblebum]

18. An uncritical thinker could also blindly accept the atheist line

"because they were told to." Happens all the time. I always find it strange how so many atheists can be so certain that something didn't happen 2000 years ago, and how they can casually disgard any bit of information as not conforming to their standards of constitututes evidence, in order to make their own case more plausible. In fact, the Bible does have credibility because it is a collection of documents by different authors. And, while not all claims can be proven objectively because of the passage of centuries, in conjunction with other writings, the existence of Jesus is more certain than not. However, to give the Bible any credibility destroys the carefully crafted atheist case, so I guess they will keep on with the story.

[LAGC]

19. "the Bible does have credibility because it is a collection of documents by different authors."

Do you also believe the Holy Qur'an has credibility because it is a collection of documents by different authors?

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/denis_giron/multiple.html

How can you be so sure something didn't happen 1500 years ago, something that supersedes what happened 2000 years ago?

Face it bum, you're facing eternal damnation for believing the wrong set of authors!

[cleanhippie]

20. +1

[MarkCharles]

21. A very interesting take on religions! Yeah, just like Apple computer tries

to get kids on Apple computers early in life, (i-Pods i-Pads i-Phones, etc) Christianity has an advantage with their Santa Claus guy they invented to go along with the supposed celebration of the birth of their star god boy there.

Get them hooked on Christmas and one is half way there to making them kids Christians. What kid wants a religion without Christmas toys???

[humblebum]

25. Both the Quran and the Bible have some level of credibility. We know that because

much of the background information contained within is quite verifiable, as are the lives of many of those who wrote.

And,of course, Infidels.org is always a highly recommended source for scholastic integrity. LOL!

But, one subject that is much more verifiable is the history of militant atheism. Very interesting. From examining the tone and the actions of atheist groups in the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries, one notices the astonishing similarity to organized atheism today.

[LAGC]

27. Mmm-hmm.

And as soon as Richard Dawkins and his ilk come knocking on my door, getting in my face telling me what to believe, I'll be just as vocal about "organized" atheism.

:rofl:

[Goblinmonger]

28. You mean

like the world-wide flood, the Roman census, and the captivity of the Jews in Egypt?

[MarkCharles]

29. Picky picky! You shouldn't make fun of the Bible and Quran for getting such...

SMALL details wrong.

LOL

[humblebum]

30. There is enough circumstantial evidence to give probability to those events, yes. nt

[Goblinmonger]

31. Probability

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

:rofl:
You SERIOUSLY think a world-wide flood was probably
:rofl:
Sorry. Where did all that water come from and subsequently go to.
:rofl:
Sorry, again. I gotta take a break to let that gem sink in.

[cleanhippie]

32. Can I join in?

:rofl:

[MarkCharles]

34. It's a holiday party of epic Laugh proportions, someone thinks

that a worldwide flood actually happened?

Defying all the rules of climatology, not to mention the geophysics of a world covered by water, and what that does to such simple principles as solar heating of the planet, reflectivity indeces, etc. Then there is this 40 days business, as if all that water would stay around and not evaporate, so we see many geophysical and meteorological rules broken here.

If the world were covered with water, all water would be SALT water, (non-potable), since when fresh water meets an ocean, as in a pond dyke giving way to the sea outside the dyke, the pond water turns brackish, (salty).

All non-amphibious animals and most plants cannot survive in salt water, nor can non-amphibious and most amphibious animals survive without SOME fresh water to drink. Camels can drink enough water for 30 days, but it has to be fresh water, not saline or brackish. All animals other than the amphibious or ocean species would die in less than 30 days without fresh water. Camels of certain desert areas can go the longest without fresh water of any mammalian species, except for hibernating varieties, bears, prairie dogs etc., who can go into "hibernation" in severe cold and non-humid environments.

The scientific absurdity of a worldwide flood goes on and on. Yet some choose to believe it, even now.

[Goblinmonger]

22. I can give you a bunch of writers that write about Beowulf.

Does that make him real?

[MarkCharles]

24. You mean he isn't?

:wtf:

[Jim__]

26. The educational philosophy of Thomas Gradgrind.

Excerpted from Dickens' Hard Times:

"Now, what I want is, Facts. Teach these boys and girls nothing but Facts. Facts alone are wanted in life. Plant nothing else, and root out everything else. You can only form the minds of reasoning animals upon Facts: nothing else will ever be of any service to them. This is the principle on which I bring up my own children, and this is the principle on which I bring up these children. Stick to Facts, sir!" The scene was a plain, bare, monotonous vault of a schoolroom, and the speaker's square forefinger emphasized his observations by underscoring every sentence with a line on the schoolmaster's sleeve. The emphasis was helped by the speaker's square wall of a forehead, which had his eyebrows for its base, while his eyes found commodious cellarage in two dark caves, overshadowed by the wall. The emphasis was helped by the speaker's mouth, which was wide, thin, and hard set. The emphasis was helped by the speaker's voice, which was inflexible, dry, and dictatorial. The emphasis was helped by the speaker's hair, which bristled on the skirts of his bald head, a plantation of firs to keep the wind from its shining surface, all covered with knobs, like the crust of a plum pie, as if the head had scarcely ware-house-room for the hard facts stored inside. The speaker's obstinate carriage, square coat, square legs, square shoulders,-nay, his very neckcloth, trained to take him by the throat with an unaccommodat-ing grasp, like a stubborn fact, as it was,-all helped the emphasis. "In this life, we want nothing but Facts, sir; nothing but Facts!" The speaker, and the schoolmaster, and the third grown person present, all backed a little, and swept with their eyes the inclined plane of little vessels then and there arranged in order, ready to have imperial gallons of facts poured into them until they were full to the brim.

...

THOMAS GRADGRIND, sir. A man of realities. A man of facts and calculations. A man who proceeds upon the principle that two and two are four, and nothing over, and who is not to be talked into allowing for anything over. Thomas Gradgrind, sir-peremptorily Thomas-Thomas Gradgrind. With a rule and a pair of scales, and the multiplication table always in his pocket, sir, ready to weigh and measure any parcel of human nature, and tell you exactly what it comes to. It is a mere question of figures, a case of simple arithmetic. You might hope to get some other nonsensical belief into the head of George Gradgrind, or Augustus Gradgrind, or John Gradgrind, or Joseph Gradgrind (all supposititious, non-existent persons), but into the head of Thomas Gradgrind-no, sir !

In such terms Mr. Gradgrind always mentally introduced himself, whether to his private circle of acquaintance, or to the public in general. In such terms, no doubt, substituting the words "boys and girls," for "sir," . Thomas Gradgrind now presented Thomas Gradgrind to the little pitchers before him, who were to be filled so full of facts.

Indeed, as he eagerly sparkled at them from the cellarage before mentioned, he seemed a kind of cannon loaded to the muzzle with facts, and prepared to blow them clean out of the regions of child-hood at one discharge. He seemed a galvanizing apparatus, too, charged with a grim mechanical substitute for the tender young imaginations that were to be stormed away

a little bit more of the story...

[Still Blue in PDX]

35. I was devastated when I found out my parents lied to me about Santa.

My parents weren't particularly religious, and my mom tried somewhat to teach me about God, but Jesus and Santa were both sort of tangled up in my head around the Christmas stories. It didn't help that my older brother told me that God kept a book and put a check by my name when I would tell a fib. I equated that with Santa and his list making.

After my parents finally let me in on the secret, for years I thought that adults who believed in God were just pretending so they could keep their kids in line. Sort of like what these bornagin politicians and some church leaders do.
:eyes:

Self-disclosure: I'm not an atheist hanging out on R/T. I haven't completely given up on religion, but what I believe now is more polyentheism than anything else. If I am going to have a made-up religion, I want to make it up myself. It's sort of an a la carte paganism that makes perfectly good sense to me.

[MarkCharles]

36. I really like that perspective! Nice! n/t