Lies and Lunacy - The religious and conservative on homosexuality

[MarkCharles]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vuuHmelYLg

In less than two minutes, why Christian religionistas are way over the top. These people he's talking about are people who make their living broadcasting hatred to the gullible and fickle millions of Christian followers.

This example is precisely why "radical" atheists are becoming "militant"!

And to think these guys make their money and tell their lies, all in the name of Jesus Christ.

Meanwhile fellow Christian believers who don't subscribe to this kind of hate mongering just stand by and don't get out there and stand up and speak out and fight against such fear mongering.

[aSpeckofDust]

1. but..but.. those aren't "true" christians! -_-

[humblebum]

2. "... precisely why 'radical' atheists are becoming 'militant'" - Well, at

least it's good to see that someone admits that there are indeed "militant atheists."

[MarkCharles]

3. I would prefer that Christians (the larger majority) would become "militant"

over these kinds of unethical and dishonest behaviors from their fellow Christians.

When someone makes up lies and trashes the character of other groups of human beings, everyone needs to become "militant" against such actions. Evidently, many Christians are not up to the challenge, and would rather confirm their own prejudices and contrived allegations.

[humblebum]

5. My primary concern is to inform them about the challenges of "militant" atheism,

and its history of trying to control thoughts and actions. BTW, I attend a church that embraces gays as welcome and productive members. Regardless, change always takes time, even generations.

[MarkCharles]

9. You can feel proud of your Christian church, but will it stand up to these lying

scumbags making fortunes off the fear many heterosexuals have about LGBT folks?

Did your congregation stand up against segregation, against apartheid, will it stand up against homophobic purveyors of lies and hate mongers? Or will your congregation just pat itself on the back for "welcoming" dues paying members who happen to be GLBT folks?

Sometimes the arrogance and overly righteous pride I see in some Christians is no more reassuring than the bigotry I see from others.

[humblebum]

10. It's not hard to see why you got out of teaching. nt

[Angry Dragon]

34. Torches and Pitchforks to the front...........

[LeftishBrit]

15. Your PRIMARY aim is to warn members of your church against the dangers of militant atheism?

There is a very small proportion of atheists, militant or otherwise, in your country. To treat them as the primary danger to your church or your country is just - extremist. If your church embraces gays, then it is in much more danger from the religious right than from atheists.

[NMMNG]

17. You forget who you're talking to

He seems to think we're barely one step away from Commie Russia, and that he's the only one keeping American Christians from being thrown in gulags for daring to read their Bibles. Such a brave Christian Soldier, he is. :rofl:

[humblebum]

23. Perspective. nt

[LeftishBrit]

35. Precisely what I am suggesting

In the USA at any rate, there is far more political influence from the Christian Right than from the small minority of so-called 'militant' atheists.

All ideologically-driven right-wingers are a force for extreme evil. This could include some atheist groups, from Stalinists (essentially right wing) to Randians. But how many Stalinists, or even Randians, are there in American politics, compared with the Christian Right?

And for that matter, who *currently* (not 60 years ago, but currently) persecutes more Christians worldwide: 'militant atheists', or the Muslim Right plus some other forms of religious right?

[MarkCharles]

36. Interesting perspective! One only has to look at Prop 8 in California, and the $

that flowed into THAT campaign to make gay marriage illegal there.

Millions upon millions of dollars even from Black Muslim, as well as Mormon, and other Christian fundamentalist groups.

Religions in the USA have full rights to throw millions at a political campaign, as long as they throw those millions at PAC's and issues, not candidates themselves.

Atheists, by contrast, are seldom seen on any one of the major cable news 24/7/365 networks, except one or two a year on Bill O'Reilly, where he makes a fool of himself, "tide goes in tide goes out, how do you explain that?" "how did the moon get there?""how come Mars doesn't have one?" (a moon, Mars has two!)

Bill O'Reilly is the spokesperson to knock down atheists, there couldn't have been a poorer choice for self-appointed choice, the supreme astronomical idiot.

[LeftishBrit]

16. There are a fair number who do, certainly in the UK

There are several gay Christian organizations here, and a fair number of gay-friendly churches:

http://www.lgcm.org.uk/

http://www.eflgc.org.uk/

http://www.gaychurch.org/Find_a_Church/foriegn_nations/UK.htm

http://www.ylgc.org.uk/

(Although I am neither gay nor Christian, I know several people who are both.)

[MarkCharles]

37. Do you have radio and TV networks with national religious personalities like..

Pat Robertson, a 5 day a week, hour-long TV show seen in all 50 U.S. states on cable TV?

Does the UK have folks like that? Does the UK have people like Westboro Baptists, who interrupt funerals of fallen servicement lost in Iraq or Afghanistan? Does the UK have total income tax exemption for organizations that promise to "get the gay out" of people by god-loving therapy and acceptance of Jesus Christ?

These are just a few of the ways the US Government is not really as "secular" as one imagines. These lying scum not only get on the cable and TV/Radio airwaves every day, they don't pay a cent in taxes on the fickle donors' money they take in.

[NMMNG]

38. They have Stephen "Birdshit" Green

He spends most of his time bashing gay people and the rest whining about "Christian persecution".

[LeftishBrit]

40. Interesting commentary by Martin Robbins here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/the-lay-scientist/2011/feb/03/christian-voice-stephen-green-daily-mail

[NMMNG]

41. It's amazing how many skeletons can be ignored by fans of

self-proclaimed "moral authorities".

[LeftishBrit]

39. There are such personalities but not nearly so influential

But a pain.

On the whole, radio and TV talkshows of any sort are not a big part of British life, the way they are in America. We do have the tabloids, however, and we do have right-wing journalists who have an influence. Much of their ranting is against (a) immigrants (b) benefit claimants and the supposedly 'undeserving' poor; (c) Gypsies and travellers; (d) public service workers; (e) trade unions; and (f) last , but not least, foreigners in general and the EU in particular. But some commentators, especially Melanie Phillips and Peter Hitchens, and in the non-tabloid but right-wing Torygraph, such people as Cristina Odone and Damian Thompson, have a distinct religious-right tone to their fanaticism.

Perhaps the nearest equivalent to Phelps here is a British Muslim called Anjem Choudary. In his case, being anti-gay is not a single obsession but just one part of considering the UK to be living in sin and immmorality that would be cured by a good dose of Sharia law. He is also very anti-American and once described the 9-11 terrorists as 'magnificent martyrs'. He and his tiny lunatic group have, like Phelps, a fondness for trying to disrupt occasions remembering those who died in wars. Fortunately, he has very little influence and is regarded as an extremist and a lunatic by almost all Brits, including Muslims.

On the extreme Christian fringes, there is Stephen Green, leader of Christian Voice. Christian Voice think that the Britain is In Sin, because it rejects God and allows homosexuality and abortion, etc. They tried to get people to boycott the Co-operative Bank, because it supports liberal ethical causes including gay rights. Most recently, they have turned their attention to boycotting Tesco, because they gave some support to Gay Pride. Ugliest of all, Green has defended Uganda's proposed laws that would make homosexuality subject to the death penalty. But he has little influence.

Much more serious IMO are the slightly-less fringey groups like Christian Concern, run by Andrea Minichiello Williams, who considers that the world is 4000 years old and that Christians are persecuted in Britain. This group does some serious lobbying of politicians, especially about abortion and about laws prohibiting discrimination against gays. Unlike Christian Voice, they are supported by some, though not the majority, of mainstream churches. Indeed, Williams was invited to speak at a church quite near me, in early 2009, about the 'state of our nation', decrying its godlessness and immorality. Highlights (I hasten to add that I wasn't there, but the 'sermon' is avaiable online) included her 12-year-old daughter singing an anti-abortion song, and her (mother not daughter) explicitly advocating the defeat of our then-MP and his replacement by a 'pro-life' MP. Whether related or not, our MP *was* defeated by a pro-life Tory in 2010, and a religious-right smear campaign did contribute to it.

http://www.dcscience.net/?p=3061

Christian Concern described this as 'the most significant result of the election'.

This did more to make me aware of the dangers and evils of the Christian Right (not the same as Christianity itself!), and of the political 'pro-life' movement than any 'New Atheist' writings ever could. It's not a coincidence that, despite having been a member of DU since 2004, I only started posting in the RT forum in 2010.

[beam me up scottie]

7. "militant"

[humblebum]

8. Seems like it fits to me:

"adj. 1. Fighting or warring.
2. Having a combative character; aggressive, especially in the service of a cause: a militant political activist.
n.
A fighting, warring, or aggressive person or party.



http://www.answers.com/topic/militant#ixzz1ewIaMzhq

And that seems to be the standard at other sites, too.

However, your dog is not. Precious animal. And another thing, and completely of the character you perceive, out of all the atheists and agnostics that I know, very few do I not love spending time with. Passionate conversation and many good times. And, if I had to choose those whom I would choose to spend my time, most of them would be near the top of my list.

[ZombieHorde]

26. Do you consider your R/T posts to be militant? nt

[cleanhippie]

29. Then I guess by that definition, you can be considered a "militant christian", right?

ok, then, if thats how you see yourself, as militant, I will oblige you.

[NMMNG]

13. "Militant" means atheists who wont STFU

and hide in a corner like he wants them to.

[deacon_sephiroth]

44. sign me up

(salutes)

[rug]

11. I can't imagine where you got that impression.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmyXFwXRDEg&feature=relmfu

[deacon_sephiroth]

45. I managed to watch 10 seconds of that

[Goblinmonger]

30. Did you miss the use of quotation marks? n/t

[deacon_sephiroth]

43. I for one never claimed not to be...

for starters I'm an atheist IN THE MILITARY, so it comes naturally, but further more I agree with Hitchens when he says you HAVE TO OPPOSE THIS 100%.

[LARED]

4. So if millions of Christians are so gullible and fickle, as you claim,

to be easily lead astray by a few lunatics, why is the nonsense identified in the youtube video not in mainstream Christian ideology? It's not even remotely accepted in fundamental Christian circles?

I have been a Christian for a long, long time and I have meet maybe 2 people that believe that sort of idiocy.

Why do you expect every whack job with a youtube video to be challenged?

[MarkCharles]

6. You're telling me you never heard of the AFA? Never heard of B. Fischer?

You're telling me that this organization and regular radio show is not a major influence upon millions of American Christians?

I can understand that, as a Christian, you may never have heard of Rabbi Levin in NYC. But he's preaching the same bull.

And, I suppose you don't live in Oklahoma City, where prevaricating Rev. Tom Vineyard holds court over 2000 church members.

He has also started 12 churches in Africa.

From his own church's web site:

"Dr. Tom Vineyard was saved at the age of six, called to preach at the age of eight, and surrendered to the mission field as a senior in high school, at the age of 18. He went on to serve as a missionary in Africa to the countries of Zaire, Congo, and Ivory Coast. In the time that he was there, he was able to start 12 different churches. The main church, Fundamental Baptist Church of Anyama, was averaging 450 when he turned it over to a national pastor. The church's highest day totaled 2,250 in attendance. He was able to see 814 souls saved and 194 people baptized during the first nine months of 2005, his last year there. Pastor Tom Vineyard has now been the pastor of Windsor Hills Baptist Church in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, since January of 2007."

http://windsorhills.org/staff.php

[NMMNG]

12. Bryan Fischer has a daily radio show

He's with the "American Family Association". He has a wide audience and a well-funded RRRW group behind him. This isn't some anonymous nut who makes YouTube videos. He's been on all of the major networks. Just because you haven't heard of him doesn't mean he isn't out there every day promoting his swill and influencing millions who think just like he does.

[Deep13]

42. Um, it is in mainstream ideology.

Some of the largest denominations in this country, Southern Baptists, R.Catholic Church, LDS all actively campaign against gay rights.

[NMMNG]

14. Bryan Fischer is virulently anti-gay

He also hates Muslims, Native Americans, women, non-Christians and just about everyone except RRRW Christians)

Some of his anti-gay gems:

Homosexual Agenda is America's greatest immediate threat

All will be lost if gay marriage passes

(The way to prevent more murders like that of Lawrence King) Curb public expressions of homosexual behavior

Outlaw fornication and homosexuality

Gays and lesbians should repress their orientation

Gays and Islamists are driven by the same Anti-Christ spirit

Criminalize homosexuality

LGBT role-models cannot exist

[MarkCharles]

18. Thanks for your post and links! You will, of course, excuse me if I

do not bother to click on all those links.

I have a problem with blood pressure reaching epic proportions when I click on swill like that.

But I'm sure you will understand.

These people make millions off the unsuspecting gullible, fickle poorly informed. AND they are PROUD to take money from those types.

Unfortunately, no Christian group seems to have to fortitude to preach against these folks who prey upon the less informed, and who turn the institution of the Christian religion into a force as disgusting as Hitler's Germany. In the face of daily radio shows of Bryan Fischer, so many Christians remain silent, or worse, actually defend his right to his religious beliefs.

[NMMNG]

19. They do indeed take in tons of money

Through fearmongering, obfuscation and flat-out lying they push people into filling their coffers. Then they use that money to fight the "culture war" against those they feel are hurting their stranglehold on America. For example, AFA donated $500,000 to the Prop8 effort, which eradicated marriage equality in California. They also committed $100,000 to the MS Personhood Amendment. They have lots of money to throw around in their efforts to take away peoples' rights.

[Thats my opinion]

20. I don't know where you have been.

All over the world almost every seminary and hundreds of congregations welcome GLBT people, and have taken clear open an d affirming stands.

Those you cite are a disgrace.

www.gaychurch.org

[NMMNG]

21. The ones he cites, and their partners in faith

Have much more visibility and power than yours. But keep your head in the sand if it makes you feel better.

[darkstar3]

22. Considering you have conspicuously avoided the entirety of middle America,

I seriously doubt your ability to claim that anything is happening "all over the world."

[skepticscott]

25. "hundreds of congregations"

all over the world? Out of how many hundreds of thousands of congregations? There are over 40,000 Southern Baptist congregations in the US alone, and you can bet than none of them (and none of their seminaries) openly and officially welcome gays and lesbians (let alone support their marriage). Ditto for Pentacostal congregations, just in the US. We haven't even talked about other fundies or the RCC yet. And you're touting "hundreds" of gay-friendly congregations on the whole planet as meaningful? And you have the nerve to post obvious baloney like "almost every seminary"?

Still waiting to hear why ANYONE should take you remotely seriously.

[darkstar3]

27. Hmm, I guess the Methodists don't count?

http://www.thebostonpilot.com/article.asp?ID=14038

[MarkCharles]

28. You don't know where I have been? I could wonder the same about you.

It seems rather call the glass half full with just a few hundred small drops of water in a huge gallon jug.

As far as religious colleges and seminaries welcoming GLBT folks. I'd love to see a list longer than a couple dozen in the USA.

[Goblinmonger]

31. "almost every seminary"

BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ Thanks for playing, though. Catholics don't "welcome" them. Conservative Christian seminaries don't "welcome" them.

I would like to see some source that supports what you are saying because that sounds like bullshit.

[skepticscott]

32. Bye. nt

[Goblinmonger]

33. I think I was gone a while ago. n/t

[NMMNG]

24. Remember that recent article on religious lobbying in Washington?

It listed the biggest 40 annual spenders. Here are the ones from that list that are exclusively or predominantly devoted to demonizing and oppressing gay people, along with what they spent on lobbying in one year:

Family Research Council: $14,259,622

Concerned WomenforAmerica: $12,566,658

Citizenlink (a Focus on the Family affiliate): $10,844,044

Traditional Values Coalition: $9,542,126


National Organization for Marriage: $8,594,845




That's a whole lot of hate.