And this is why I will NEVER be a member of a Christian Church!

[pink-o]

I only go to houses of worship for weddings and funerals, and that's where I was on Saturday, in a Methodist church in Dallas watching my friend's son get married. After the pastor did his "dearly beloved" thing--IOW, just about 5 sentences into the ceremony--he actually said: "John and Mary stand before God as Male and Female--as God created and intended, only Male and Female can come together in holy matrimony."

I was so disgusted, it took all my effort not to walk out. Please tell me why a pastor would need to interject his homophobia into a wedding ceremony? Is Christianity so fragile that the believers need to validate it at every turn?

[xfundy]

1. It's because Christianity has become a political party.

Or, has been eaten by one. Statements such as that are elephant excrement.

[Arkansas Granny]

17. If it hasn't become one, it has surely been co-opted by most Republicans.

[darkstar3]

2. Yes.

[virgogal]

3. It's a church. That's what churches(temples,mosques) do. Avoid

them if it bothers you.

[uppityperson]

36. Not all of them. Find a UCC one that doesn't as there are many. eom

[derby378]

4. Just remember that Christianity is not monolithic

Or at least not as monolithic as the Far Right would have you believe... :hi:

[Bluenorthwest]

21. The post right above yours claims otherwise.

I see the responsibility for ending such crude hate as this 'pastor' displayed lies with those who claim to be of that faith, yet not like the haters. The haters are YOUR job. It is not the job of others to remember anything about a faith that is freely used as a device of human agenda without a word of criticism from the 'not like that' faction. Sorry. Clean your own house!

[derby378]

24. What, the Quakers?

Don't go blaming the Quakers for what the evangelicals have been doing - the haters are YOUR job, too.

[Thats my opinion]

33. i work at it all the time!

Fighting off some of you, makes the task harder, not easier. We know it is our task--not yours.

[skepticscott]

39. Oh, please...now you're blaming atheists

on this board for the fact that you can't purge the ugly elements in your own religion? That's beyond laughable.

And I thought these elements were only a fringe minority and an "unrecognizable caricature"? You sure do have a tough time fighting them for as insignificant a part of Christianity as you claim them to be.

[deutsey]

26. You're right...unfortunately, the progressive Christians are overshadowed by the Right n/t

[NMMNG]

5. Yes

Is Christianity so fragile that the believers need to validate it at every turn?

Why do you think they go to church every week, freak out when their beliefs are questioned, work to have their beliefs codified in our laws, and have a shit-fit whenever an atheist billboard goes up?

[RKP5637]

14. Indicative that they are very fragile insecure people IMO. I've never figured out,

for one example, why they are sooooo uptight that just about anything gays do is going to F up their marriage. It's damn ridiculous nonsense and is part of flock control.

[uppityperson]

6. All "Christian Church"s are not like this. Try UCC as they are very much not.

"Christianity" is not all the same, there are differences, from fundie to very open. Please do not judge all based on the actions of some.

[RKP5637]

15. I think that's a good point many of us often forget. The outrageous ones steal the

news headlines all of the time, so sometimes all get lumped together.

[Bluenorthwest]

23. Well look at the Obamas the most famous attendees of UCC

Dumped it, took up with McClurkin and every intolerant hate preacher they could find, and started spouting off on the subject of their kind being 'sanctified' and gay people, well, just not as good as Newt and any one woman he calls 'wife' that day.
So the UCC? Clearly it is not much of a denomination, does not teach well, does not impress any decency, and the members are just as likely to turn on their neighbors and host preachers who call us vampires and such.
Or would you say the Obamas were UCC backsliders? Seems to me no one in the UCC said a word about the 'I'm a Christian so I oppose equal rights' material, or the McClurkin rallies, or the Warren stuff. Silent allies are worthless. Just fyi. Worthless and worse.

[uppityperson]

27. You obviously do not know much about UCC and their equal rights stuff. Educate yourself.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8463741/ns/us_news/t/united-church-christ-endorses-gay-marriage/
The United Church of Christ’s rule-making body voted overwhelmingly Monday to approve a resolution that endorses same-sex marriage, making it the largest Christian denomination to do so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Church_of_Christ#Activities

Social activism
The UCC national body has been active in numerous traditionally-liberal social causes, including support for abortion rights,<25> the United Farm Workers, and the Wilmington Ten.<9>

<[br />Same-sex marriage
Churches in the UCC can sanctify same-sex unions.<26> The resolution "In support of equal marriage rights for all", supported by an estimated 80% of the UCC's 2005 general synod delegates, made the United Church of Christ the first major Christian deliberative body in the U.S. to make a statement of support for "equal marriage rights for all people, regardless of gender," and is hitherto the largest Christian denominational entity in the U.S. supporting same-sex marriage.<27> This resolution (and the sanctification of same-sex marriages), however, is not supported by some congregations.<27> Of particular note, the Iglesia Evangelica Unida de Puerto Rico, a long-standing congregation in the UCC, voted by a 3–1 margin to withdraw its affiliation with the UCC over the same-sex marriage issue.<28>

Apology Resolution
United Church of Christ was recognized in the Apology Resolution to Native Hawaiians. In the Resolution, Congress recognized the reconciliation made by the UCC in the Eighteenth General Synod for their actions in overthrowing the Kingdom of Hawaii.

(clip)Social criticism
Conservatives have complained that UCC members are "probably the most left-leaning of all major U.S. denominations."<38> These critics have complained that the UCC attempts to control "how liberal Christians should think in politically correct terms about climate controversies, socialized medicine, the U.S. presence in Iraq, immigration and the Welfare State."<38>

Criticism over same-sex marriage
The UCC has been severely criticized for its stand on same-sex marriage. In fact, citing differences over "the membership and ministry of gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender Christians", the UCC's Puerto Rico Conference left the church in 2006.<39>

Criticism of sex education
Critics have complained that the UCC's focus on sex education, including the distribution of condoms, does not provide appropriate moral context for sex and has failed in "reinforcing the traditional Christian ethic reserving sex for marriage."<40>...(much more)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&forum=214&topic_id=322406&mesg_id=322445
Marriage Equality and the UCC

Marriage is one of the most significant institutions in our culture. The sacred and civil, church and state dimensions of marriage are complex and often muddled, which makes marriage one of the most challenging issues to discuss in the church and beyond.

On July 4, 2005, at the 25th General Synod of the United Church of Christ in Atlanta, delegates voted to adopt the resolution, "Equal Marriage Rights for All" The resources below are provided to help facilitate conversations and study throughout the church and society on this complex and challenging matter which has important implications for individuals, families and the wider community. They are intended to get people of faith talking about the purposes of marriage, looking more closely at how marriage has evolved and changed through time biblically and socially, exploring the theology of marriage, and critically discerning the appropriate roles for the church and the state in marriage.

The colleagues who worked together to prepare these resources join the Conference Ministers of the United Church of Christ who, in calling us to this important dialog say, "let us explore our faith in relation to these issues: the meaning of Christian marriage, the blessing of unions among same-sex couples, the honoring of diverse expressions of loving and caring human relationships, being guided in all things by the love of Jesus. Above all, may these conversations be ventured in humility and prayer."

--------------------------------
ETC.

[uppityperson]

28. "Seems to me no one in the UCC said a word about the...oppose equal rights material"? WTF?

You assume something that is absolutely untrue.

http://www.thenorthernlight.com/news/article.exm/2011-11-30_new_ucc_pastor_opening_doors

Blaine United Church of Christ is officially recognized as an open and affirming congregation, which Williams described as a “seal” from the denomination letting the world know that everyone is truly welcome to worship. One of the most recognized aspects of the designation is welcoming gay and lesbian worshippers and ministers, but to Williams, it goes beyond that.

“It’s gender and race and ethnicity and economics,” Williams says. It’s even theology: “Bring your questions,” she says. “We’ll toss ‘em around. We might not have an answer, but we’ll enter a dialog.” ...

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/05/national/05church.html

Published: July 5, 2005
Correction Appended

ATLANTA, July 4 - The United Church of Christ became the first mainline Christian denomination to support same-sex marriage officially when its general synod passed a resolution on Monday affirming "equal marriage rights for couples regardless of gender."

The resolution was adopted in the face of efforts to amend the Constitution to ban same-sex marriage. It was both a theological statement and a protest against discrimination, said the Rev. John H. Thomas, the president and general minister of the denomination, which has 6,000 congregations and 1.3 million members.

"On this July 4, the United Church of Christ has courageously acted to declare freedom, affirming marriage equality, affirming the civil rights of gay - of same-gender - couples to have their relationships recognized as marriages by the state, and encouraging our local churches to celebrate those marriages," Mr. Thomas said at a news conference after the vote by the General Synod....

Do some research. "no one in the UCC said a word about the ...oppose equal rights' material" etc bs.

You use poor logic. Obama's belonged to UCC. They quit and went to some other group, excuse me, "every intolerant hate preacher they could find, and started spouting off on the subject of their kind being 'sanctified' and gay people, well, just not as good as Newt and any one woman he calls 'wife' that day" and so therefor you conclude the UCC " is not much of a denomination, does not teach well, does not impress any decency, and the members are just as likely to turn on their neighbors and host preachers who call us vampires and such." when the opposite is true.

Poor logic and lack of knowledge here, both can be helped with education. Please read, learn, think.

[RainDog]

7. just show up for the reception

your friends won't know the difference

why would someone LET a pastor say something like that in their wedding ceremony?

ah, this is why I avoid churches all together. it disgusts me to be around this kind of shit.

[patrice]

8. Yes, but it's not authentic validation. It's nothing but an echo. nt

[Mz Pip]

9. In answer to

your last question:Is Christianity so fragile that the believers need to validate it at every turn? It sure seems that way.

It comes out in the annual War on Christmas and in stuff like this. I remember years ago when I taught public school I had a kid who came from a religious school. The 5th grade reading book had an article about the Big Bang. The mother came to me and told me that her son was uncomfortable reading the article. I pretty much toldher that this would hardly be the last time in his life where he would be exposed to things that he disagreed with. She agreed with me and was quite polite about it but it just seemed so ridiculous that she expected a public school to reinforce her belief system. It was as though it was so fragikle that any exposure to another point of view, to actual science, was a threat.

[KT2000]

10. Same here -

the last time I was in a church was for the funeral of a friend. She worked for the church until she got cancer then she was laid off. The pastor and her so-called friends in the church spoke mostly about how she was a smoker, her attempts at quitting (bad temper), her assigned helper who had only one request and that was to not be assigned to a smoker. Screw 'em.
It took her real friends to talk about her sense of humor, kindness, and talent.

[Initech]

11. I left my EV church for the exact same reasons: homophobia and mysoginy.

[ZombieHorde]

12. Conservative Christianity is very fragile.

Liberal Christianity is generally significantly stronger. Some of the liberal Christians at my university seem to only use their religion as a source of strength and personal moral guidance.

[peace13]

13. He was just reminding John and Mary to forget the sex change when the seven year itch hits!

[Speck Tater]

16. The solution is simple. Wear ear plugs to church events. Or an mp3 player

playing some good, wholesome atheist music. ;)

[cleanhippie]

18. Because willful ignorance is the hallmark of religion does not mean that it is a virtue.

[socialindependocrat]

19. The couple should have reviewed the vows.

Maybe they didn't care but they can review what the
minister is going to say and ask for revisions.

Just a thought for people with weddings in their future.

It's a shame he got political during some couple's service.

Some ministers think they are above the common folk.

[darkstar3]

20. And ministers reserve the right to go off-script. I've seen it 4 different times,

including my own wedding.

[Bluenorthwest]

22. That's because they lack all honor and follow ego to the end

nt

[pink-o]

25. Here's the ironic juxtaposition...I went to Thanksgiving with my friends in SF

And they had some guests there who were a very loving man/woman couple: he was originally born female and she a male. They'd known each other all through school, knew they were in love from a long time back and went through gender reassignment together. And even though each now identifies with the opposite sex, their legal docs show them as their birth gender. So ostensibly, they could get married in this pastor's church--because after all, they're a male and a female in the eyes of God, right??

Actually, I would have loved to present this anecdote to the pastor and watch his head explode. But since I was surrounded by believing Christians (and I was in DALLAS!) I figured discretion is the better part of valor.

[saras]

29. A church that can't handle a hearty belly laugh in response to such idiocy isn't worthy of respect.

[mistertrickster]

30. That's not fair. You're judging Muslims by bin Laden.

My church--the Episcopalian--had to endure a schism and angry members walking away because we did the right thing and ordained a gay bishop.

You're talking about a Christian in Texas. They're all Southern Baptists down there even if the sign says Methodist or Presbyterian.

[cleanhippie]

31. Yet who is to say that Texas Christians or bin laden got the religion wrong?

That's the problem.

[mistertrickster]

35. Religion is a belief system. Are you saying people should have no beliefs? nt

[cleanhippie]

41. Perhaps you should re-read both YOUR comments and then my response.

And then see if I said anything close to what you think I did.

[mistertrickster]

43. Or you could just clarify what it is exactly that you're saying. nt

[LeftishBrit]

37. But to some degree you could say this about any belief system

On the whole, government imposition of *any* belief system, beyond that of basic human rights, has its dangers and should be avoided. But you cannot judge all belief systems by their horrific distortions when forcibly imposed by authoritarian governments and other organizations. I strongly believe in democratic socialism, but we know what happened when communist governments imposed their version of socialist ideology in an authoritarian fashion (and yes, contrary to some people's views, it was socialist ideology, not atheism, that they were primarily intending to enforce).

As I'm not religious, I don't believe in there being a religion with 'absolute truth'. Generally speaking if a religion makes people cruel to others, then their form of religion is a bad religion. Christians who use their religion to support social justice may or may not be 'truer Christians' than those who use it to oppress women and gays; but they are certainly better people. Muslims who use their religion to do good works may or may not be 'truer Muslims' than those who support terrorism; but they are better people. Jews who do charitable work and fight for justice may or may not be 'truer Jews' than the right-wing settlers, but they are better people. Gandhi may or may not have been a 'truer Hindu' than reactionaries who support the caste system, but he was a better person. Etc.

I think that it's people's actions that are important, not their religious beliefs or lack of them. When religion causes oppression, or makes people nasty to others, then it should be opposed. And that happens too often. But I don't think that one can or should include all religious people in one's condemnation.

[mistertrickster]

44. Good post. This is what MLKing said in "Letter from Birmingham Jail"

any law (or belief) that reduces human to human interaction to an "I to it" instead of a "I to you" relationship is unjust--King cited Martin Buber for this idea.

If Al Qaeda believes that the non-believer is an "it," that belief is unjust. Whether it can be rationalized in the broader context of Islam is irrelevant.

Besides, the vast majority of self-identifying Christians (or Muslims) get to define what their faith prescribes or proscribes, not the fanatics.

[PassingFair]

48. Episcopalians are some of the most progressive of religionists...

but I don't think they officiate over same sex marriage.

I could be wrong.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

52. Many Episcopal priests DO officiate at same-sex weddings

My church has had several since I joined in 2003, even though they have no legal standing in Minnesota.

But at this point, there's no official churchwide policy.

[PassingFair]

53. Good to know!

Thanks Lydia.

:)

[Thats my opinion]

32. i would also be tempted to walk out.

At the very least, I would have a serious confrontation with the pastor following the service. What did you do?

[laconicsax]

34. I thought this kind of church was an unrecognizable caricature to you... n/t

[cleanhippie]

54. No, you would just put him on ignore.

[laconicsax]

55. !

:spray:

[beam me up scottie]

56. LMAO!

:rofl:

[NMMNG]

57. Bye! n/t

[Dragonbreathp9d]

38. Really? At a Methodist church? Which one in Dallas?

I used to live/work in that area

[pink-o]

45. White's Chapel Southlake, Tx.

It's the bride's childhood church, even tho she and the groom now live in San Francisco. Her mother is a HUGE believing Xian, can't help but throw in references to Jesus into every conversation. But the odd thing is, I really like her, she's very warm and a hoot to party with. However she only knows me superficially and doesn't have a clue that I'm an Ashkenazi agnostic with more gay friends than straight ones. It's the conditional acceptance that really annoys me. And it helps me understand what my gay friends go through whenever they're in this situation: You can really like someone and yet never pursue a friendship because you know they hate you intrinsically.

What a shame. What a waste. Humans shouldn't limit themselves, and religion does just that. No matter what anyone tells me about how "forgiving" Christians are, I see just the opposite. There's a smugness and entitlement even in the best of them. If they're not shunning you, they're trying to "fix" you and make you "perfect".

[Dragonbreathp9d]

51. Ah, Southlake- ok that makes more sense

I hate that place- I'm trying really hard to think of even one person from there I have even been able to tolerate

[MarkCharles]

40. So this pastor thought there would be no gay folks who were friends of

the bridal couple, and no folks from other Christian denominations in attendance? So he just figured he could push his conservative Christian political agenda on everyone there?

I'd suggest sending a nice (anonymous,if necessary) letter to him, explaining how his behavior is "un" Christian, uncharitable, and outright offensive and out of place at any wedding ceremony where he has been "hired" to perform.

[pink-o]

46. I truly don't think it occurred to him to dial it down. He figured he was in friendly territory.

...and the sad thing is, he totally was. It's like the clerks in the pharmacy who won't give women their birth control pills because it offends their belief system. Those people know they won't be fired, because everyone in their podunk town is just as ignorant.

Remember, I was in Dallas. Here at home, such postulating would never be tolerated.

[deacon_sephiroth]

42. Ask him

Write him a letter pointing out exactly what he looked like, a small minded ass.

Point out the importance of the moment, a moment that IS NOT his fucking soap-box, it's improtant to two people possibly for the rest of thier lives and why he felt the need to stick his balls in their pudding.

..... just use better wording than I do...

[pink-o]

47. I like your wording just fine!!!

:toast:

[4_TN_TITANS]

49. You need to try the Unitarian Universalists...

I go to church with gays, Wiccans, other athiests, and people generally kicked to the curb by society. Most tolerant and diverse church I've ever seen.

[pink-o]

50. Yeah, Unitarians are cool.

If you want to attend any church, that would be the one I'd think most liberals would enjoy.