How many non-catholics are aware of just how biblically based Catholicism

[RUDUing2]

really is? It seems to be a very common belief among non-catholics that Catholics don't read the bible and that the Catholic Church doesn't base its beliefs on the bible? Is this a case of Bushitis? Because Protestant Ministers have claimed this so often and so loudly people just assume it is true and because they know people who are name-only catholics who don't know the bible therefore it is a proven fact?

for those interested in just how biblically based the RCC is here are some links..I know growing up SB I shared the above belief..I was absolutely stunned when I started investigating the RCC to find out that the RCC is much more biblically based and much more literal in many of the biblical verses then the so called Bible literist churches..

http://jerome2007.tripod.com/biblical_basis_of_catholicism.htm
http://www.davesloan.com/god/biblical_basis.html

[purduejake]

1. Surprise!

The church lied.

[Warpy]

30. Yes and no

It was a very long time before Catholics were permitted to read their bibles. The clergy had reacted with great alarm to the misinterpretations that the Protestant churches were founded upon, and the family bible became mostly a place to record marriages, births and deaths.

The problem is not that the RCC isn't based on the bible, it's that the newly imperial church decided what the bible consisted of. Paul and Revelations were useful to an imperial church, so they got included. The Gospel of Thomas, which centered power in the ordinary believer, did not. Protestants follow this same oddly perverted text, and the most evangelical Protestants have concentrated on the OT, Paul and Revelations to the complete exclusion of the words of Jesus.

Protestants who deny the Christianity of the RCC members are being horribly misled by a bigoted, intolerant fool of a preacher who is trying to build his own power at the expense of people he is in no position to judge.

Disagree with them on doctrine, if you must. Deny who they are and you risk exposing yourself as a fool.

[ET Awful]

2. Well considering the bible has specific instructions such as

Call NO man father, no idolatry, etc. I'd have to disagree.

Personally, I think it's all a load of hooey (religion in general that is), but that's just me :)

[RUDUing2]

4. Catholic church does not call any man FATHER as in God the Father..

the term father is the same usage as the term father in family..the paternal head of the family and the paternal head of church..

As for idolatry..the RCC does not and never has practiced idolatry.

[ET Awful]

8. If you use an idol in your worship, you are practicing idolatry

That's kind of the meaning of the word. When you use statues of Mary, crucifixes, etc. those are IDOLS.

The bible doen't say call no man FATHER, it says call no man father.

[RUDUing2]

10. not exactly...

we don't use idols..the statues of Mary are not assumed to be Mary and are not worshipped..they are reminders of a loved one, like the pictures of you child or parents on your wall or desk...

[ET Awful]

14. I don't kneel in front of pictures of my parents and pray to them.

Sorry, but "Holy Mary, mother of God" is praying to her, like it or not.

[RUDUing2]

16. I hold my moms picture and talk to her...doesn't mean I am praying TO her

it means I believe that she is still alive in heaven and still loves me and is still concerned about me...I only pray to God. Same when I say the Hail Mary..I am talking to Mary...I am asking for her help...I am asking her to pray for me..I believe she is still alive in heaven and still concerned about us in heaven and is still a mother to us all in heaven.

[ET Awful]

24. Now you're just reaching

You don't call your mom "Mother of God" while crossing yourself.

Sorry, but it's idolatry, you can try to rationalize it all you like, it doesn't change fact.

[RUDUing2]

27. nope I am not reaching..it is exactly the same thing..with exactly the

meaning. Apparently you don't understand what is meant by crossing yourself. It is a form of prayer to God..it means God hear the prayer in my heart in your name..the name of the Father, the name of the Son and the name of the Holy Spirit..crossing yourself has absolutely nothing in relationship to Mary.

[ET Awful]

31. No, it is not.

The problem is that you, like most Catholics are so indoctrinated into the dogmatic teachings of the church that you've lost the ability to approach the subject logically.

[RUDUing2]

34. sorry but I was raised Southern Baptist..problem seems to be you

don't want to believe what catholics actually are doing and not doing cause it is more fun to believe something different. I know exactly what I am doing and why.

[ET Awful]

39. No, actually, I have no need to buy into the dogma of Catholicism

It contradicts itself and offers NO real explanation for the ways it directly contradicts scripture other than giving excuses (much like you are doing in this thread).

[RUDUing2]

45. that is your opinion..which is fine for you to have..what is a problem

though is when you try to spin what I have said to fit your preconcieved beliefs. I have not offered any excuses..but I have given explanations..just because you disagree w/or refuse to accept those explanations as legitimate is unimportant to anyone but you.

[ET Awful]

52. You have yet to present anything but dogmatic teachings that

have no basis in scripture.

I'm not spinning anything, it is you who is trying to spin idolatry into something acceptable.

[RUDUing2]

55. I have..you just choose not to acknowledge the legitimacy of what I have

written. Which is your right..belief is not something that can be forced.

[Warpy]

38. The problem is that many protestants,

have been so indoctrinated with bigotry and misinterpretation that they find it impossible to listen to people who know what they're talking about.

By your own interpretation, if there is a cross anywhere in or on your church, you are a simple idolator.

[ET Awful]

41. LOL . . . you'll have to first understand that I'm not a protestant either

Of course, you probably didn't actually read what I posted earlier, but just relied on what others told you.

[ET Awful]

33. So, using that logic, if Jesus had been hanged, would you make

the sign of a noose around your neck?

[RUDUing2]

35. we would probably touch three spots on our neck.

[catbert836]

79. So?

We're allowed to pray to the saints, despite what the Talibornagains say to that effect.

[FreakinDJ]

50. that would be distorted bigotry

The catholic faith does not practice worshiping idols.

[arcane1]

3. well there is that graven images thing....

[RUDUing2]

5. RCC does not use graven images.

[arcane1]

7. really?

No statues? Paintings? etc?

Seems to me that a crucifix w/Jesus hanging on it is the definition of a graven image

your mileage may vary

[RUDUing2]

9. that is not what a graven image is:

a material effigy that is worshipped as a god (dictionary.com)

The RCC does not worship any material effigy as a God..doesn't worship any statues, any pictures, etc as Gods..

[arcane1]

12. hmmm

Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth

[RUDUing2]

17. doesnt say you cant make statues or pictures..just that they cant be

graven images..that they can not be used as images to worship.

[arcane1]

19. actually, that is exactly what it says

hence the "or"

no graven images OR ANY likeness of ANY thing

seems rather clear to me... doesn't say you can't worship them, it says you can't MAKE them

[RUDUing2]

23. the RCC does not worship statues or idols or pictures..they are used as

reminders of the person. The verse doesnt say you cant have statues, or pictures..just that they can not be worshiped..the RCC does not worship statues or pictures. We worship God.

[ET Awful]

25. So why then do you cross yourself when you see an idol of Jesus

on the cross?

[RUDUing2]

32. do you understand what crossing one selves means?

It is a form of prayer..it says God hear the prayer in my heart..in the Name of the FAther, in the name of the Son and in the name of the Holy Spirit.

Seeing a statue of Jesus reminds us that Jesus is always present. It is an acknowledgement of the reality of Jesus.

we are not pretending the statue IS Jesus.

[ET Awful]

36. No, it's a sign of glorifying death and execution.

If he'd been hanged, would you make the sign of a noose?

How about if he'd been stabbed with a spear, how would you emulate that one?

If he'd been beheaded? How exactly would you handle that?

Sorry, it's just more dogma.

[LeftyMom]

82. It's a way of honoring Jesus' sacrifice and suffering

I get that and I'm not a Christian (although I was raised RCC.) Crucifixes are a lot less creepy than Protestant crosses that are prettified and Jesusless, IMO. The cross in't the point, the guy on it is, or at least that's what I was always told.

BTW, are you LDS by any chance? I've only heard the noose argument from them, although the Moonies also have issues with the cross.

[arcane1]

26. did you read the verse?

It clearly distinguishes between graven images (those that are worshipped) and "likenesses"

both are forbidden

no graven images OR likenesses

[RUDUing2]

42. try these verses to explain..

People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues. For example: "And you shall make two cherubim of gold ; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be" (Ex. 25:18–20).

David gave Solomon the plan "for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan" (1 Chr. 28:18–19). David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was "by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all," included statues of angels.

Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, "On the walls round about in the inner room and the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim."

and

does Deuteronomy 4 forbid such representations?


The Answer Is No



Early in its history, Israel was forbidden to make any depictions of God because he had not revealed himself in a visible form. Given the pagan culture surrounding them, the Israelites might have been tempted to worship God in the form of an animal or some natural object (e.g., a bull or the sun).

But later God did reveal himself under visible forms, such as in Daniel 7:9: "As I looked, thrones were placed and one that was Ancient of Days took his seat; his raiment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames, its wheels were burning fire." Protestants make depictions of the Father under this form when they do illustrations of Old Testament prophecies.

The Holy Spirit revealed himself under at least two visible forms—that of a dove, at the baptism of Jesus (Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:32), and as tongues of fire, on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1–4). Protestants use these images when drawing or painting these biblical episodes and when they wear Holy Spirit lapel pins or place dove emblems on their cars.

But, more important, in the Incarnation of Christ his Son, God showed mankind an icon of himself. Paul said, "He is the image (Greek: ikon) of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation." Christ is the tangible, divine "icon" of the unseen, infinite God.

We read that when the magi were "going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshipped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold, frankincense, and myrrh" (Matt. 2:11). Though God did not reveal a form for himself on Mount Horeb, he did reveal one in the house in Bethlehem.

The bottom line is, when God made the New Covenant with us, he did reveal himself under a visible form in Jesus Christ. For that reason, we can make representations of God in Christ. Even Protestants use all sorts of religious images: Pictures of Jesus and other biblical persons appear on a myriad of Bibles, picture books, T-shirts, jewelry, bumper stickers, greeting cards, compact discs, and manger scenes. Christ is even symbolically represented through the Icthus or "fish emblem."

you can read more here: http://www.catholic.com/library/Do_Catholics_Worship_Statues.asp

[ET Awful]

43. So where in there does it say to kneel before a statue and cross

yourself?

[RUDUing2]

46. kneeling has always been a sign of reverance before royalty..and

crossing oneself is a form of prayer.

[ET Awful]

56. LOL . . . no, it's not a form of prayer

You may think of is such, but Christ in fact gave specific instructions on how you should pray, crossing yourself wasn't part of his guidelines.

[arcane1]

44. that merely demostrates the self-contradictory nature of the Bible

doesn't change the meaning of the Exodus verse one bit

[RUDUing2]

48. actually it does..the Bible is not just a series of verses to be taken

individually, but a guidebook to be used as a whole.

[arcane1]

49. does it now?

so God tells specific people to build specific things, but gives a general commandment not to make any other things

kind of like how it says "thou shalt not kill" while God repeatedly commands his followers to slay and utterly destroy this or that group

keep digging

[RUDUing2]

53. actually God didn't say "thou shall not kill" that is a mistranslation..

the actual verse is "thou shall not commit capital (premeditated)murder"

[arcane1]

58. but that verse's meaning is now changed, according to your logic

since God often commanded the Israelites to commit premeditated murder against specific groups and people

even the premeditated murder of children

thus the general commandment against premeditated murder has its meaning changed in the same way the commandment against making likenesses is changed, as you said

[RUDUing2]

59. you really like to reach don't you? The commandments are aimed

at individual behavior..not at countries..as Jesus said..Unto Cesear that which is Cesears..

Now the argument can be made that warfare is premeditated murder just on a larger scale..but that is a philosophical not a religious argument.

[arcane1]

61. I'M the one reaching?

what part of "any likeness of any thing" don't you understand? That is aimed, as you say, at individual behaviour

the fact that God made a couple of exceptions to this rule, doesn't erase the rule

[RUDUing2]

62. yep you are reaching.

[arcane1]

63. you are getting desperate

doing all kinds of hoop-jumping to avoid answering my original issue

:eyes:

face it, God forbids the making of any likeness of any thing

the RCC violates this, and one cherub statue doesn't take that away

[RUDUing2]

64. lol...I have explained and have shown you why..you have chosen not

to agree..which is your right..what is silly is the desperation you are showing to try and keep from admitting that while you may disagree with the reasoning it is still a legitimate one.

[arcane1]

66. reasoning?

seems more like excuses to me

I almost pity you

[RUDUing2]

67. .

.

[RUDUing2]

69. don't you understand the difference between excuses and explanations..

but the pity flows both ways..except it isn't almost from my side..seems like some people are so closed minded against religion that they are unable to listen to what people are saying.

[arcane1]

70. I know the difference

I doubt you do

some are so closed-minded they can't see the beam in their own eye

you have explained nothing, and when called on it, you begin ridiculing me

that shows me, and everyone reading this, how weak your position is

but thanks for letting us know that we can ignore verses that we don't like... there are quite a few I would like to ignore, and now I can :)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

80. So why do you have a cat avatar?

If you were really against the making of likenesses, you would condemn all depictions of living things in art, as the strictest Muslims do.

As it is, I think you're just trying to be difficult. :-)

[TheWraith]

74. Oh really?

Then I suppose that you consider adultery and disrespecting one's parents to be crimes worthy of death, as the Bible states?

I get a kick out of it whenever someone talks about the Bible as a whole, because no matter what they think they are always ignoring some part of it in favor of the parts they like.

[RUDUing2]

77. if I read it as verses only I would..but since it is meant to be read as a

whole I dont. That was my point. If you read it as simply a collection of verses that are all stand alone verses then you would/could believe that..if you read it as a whole and put into perspective (or think of it as a puzzle that has to be put together to see the entire picture) then you would understand what those verses meant in the context of the times they were written and that later understanding and cultural/religious changes occured that changed those verses.

[jackster]

13. sorry, I have to disagree...

what do you call all those statues in the churches with people praying to them?

a form of idolatry even if those who are praying to the idol don't recognize it

a former christian - from presbyterian to methodist to non-demoninational to united pentecostal back to mainstream (baptist) and now agnostic....

the RC may be "bibically based" to some extent but that could be because they rewrote the scriptures and even then wouldn't let their parishoners read a bible for centuries

[RUDUing2]

15. we are not praying TO the statues...the statues are simply pictures or

reminders of the Saint...We are talking to the Saint whom we believe is still alive in heaven asking them to help us out..we only *pray* to God.

I talk to my mom..I look at her picture and ask her for help..she died May 5, 2004...but I am not praying TO her anymore then I am praying to Mary when I kneel in front of her statue and ask her for help.

[jackster]

47. I respect your beliefs

but if you are asking your mom or anyone in heaven for help = isn't that the same as praying? What is your definition of praying?

To me praying is communication with the supernatural. Since you can't touch your mom now or the saints (according to the bible you know the saints are those in the church NOW), wouldn't that make her supernatural? And wouldn't communicating with her be praying? That's the way I see this...

[RUDUing2]

51. it is hard to explain the difference...

it is like trying to explain the difference in the love you feel for your child and your parent...

I don't think my mom can actually effect help to me on her own..or of her own ability..I think she can offer love and support to me..and add her prayers to mine.

I believe prayer involves believing that the entity to which you are praying can effect the change, work etc by their own divinity/ability..and to me only God is capable of that...

does that make sense?

[jackster]

65. sorry, no to me it doesn't make sense...

but of course you don't have to convince me - again I respect your beliefs - my daughter is Catholic and I live in Mass so most everyone I know here is too. I used to think my protestantism and later my pentecostalism made sense - now I believe that if there IS a God, he/she/it doesn't involve him/her/itself in the affairs of man/womankind.

I do have to say though, that I was surprised by the numbers of Catholics supporting the shrub - the Catholics I know are liberal minded socially aware people who are more free thinkers than they would probably admit, but always open minded.

[RUDUing2]

68. like I said it is hard to explain...

unfortunately their is a dark undercurrent of extreme conservatism inthe RCC as well...and it seems to be gaining ground..hence Opus Dei, etc...

I am not sure if God involves himself/herself w/mankind on a daily basis..but I think He/She can if she/he so desires...

[jackster]

71. is there anything

begin done to counter the conservative wave in the RCC? I think here in MA most Catholics vote Democrat - my bf and I were surprised to learn that his Irish and French Canadian Catholic family voted for Bush tho - they've been die hard Democrats forever - and his mother is a TEACHER! Of course, she teaches at a very exclusive Catholic school where the majority of very wealthy parents of course supported the chimp.

[RUDUing2]

75. it is starting..but like the rest of the US liberals got lazy...

we didn't notice that the conserves were getting stronger..maybe cause we couldn't conceive of people wanting to go back to the darkness from the light..plus liberals in the church have been busy..w/social work programs..I am starting to notice a backlash against some of the more conserve measures the church is trying to reimpose...not too long ago our very liberal priest was transferred to a very conservative parish and our very liberal church was given a very conservative priest...but a strange thing happened..the conservative parish was re-energized and became more liberal..and the conservative priest has also became more liberal...not exactly what the diocese had in mind..lol...

[jackster]

76. WONDERFUL!

decent people will eventually refuse to follow this evil if they've not already done so, somehow they will see the light

true Christians are first CHRISTians - they follow Christ, not somebody's version of a fire and brimstone God

corporate christians someone on this board called them, I like that term

whether or not they realize it - they are feed the corporate beast

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

81. Bull Shit. You are praying TO the statues. you ask the Saints

to intercede in your prayers. Certain Saints have powers over certain events.

YOU may not think you are, but the actual faith of RCC is based on prayers TO Saints which ARE REPRESENTED by statuary.

[muriel_volestrangler]

83. Past popes regard it as praying *to* Mary

eg Paul VI, 1974: "For these people the Church asks Mary's motherly assistance. The Church prays fervently to Mary on behalf of her children who have come to the hour of their death."

http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pa06mc.htm

Not only is this praying to Mary, it also regards church members as 'her children'.

[ET Awful]

22. delete

deltee

[Az]

6. History of the bible

For much of history the bible was a banned book. Ordinary people were not allowed to read it under penalty of death. The clergy were the sole proprieters of its text. Remnants of this history may survive within popular perception of the Catholic Church.

Today most Catholics I know have read the bible cover to cover. Their take on it varies from individual to individual. I would feel ill at ease at making a snap judgement about a person simply from hearing they were a Catholic. I have met fundamentalist Catholics and closeted atheist Catholics. Assume at your own risk.

[purduejake]

11. The funny thing I have noticed about Catholics I know...

is that none of them believe in some of the most distinctive things that make them Catholic. For instance, they don't believe you have to go to confession to be forgiven. They also believe in birth control and use it. Sex before marriage? No problem. That's certainly not all Catholics, but from my observation people believe what they want.

[IndyPriest]

21. Yes, when you say "Catholic church", you could either mean

the "official" group that runs the organization, or the huge group of human beings that form "the church." VERY different things.

[Warpy]

40. Catholics are sensible people

and on the whole, more liberal than their Protestant counterparts.

They know that a celibate old man in Rome really doesn't know what he's talking about when he issues edicts on procreation. They know he probably does know what he's talking about when he issues edicts on faith.

[FreakinDJ]

54. What do you expect.......all of them to be the Virgin Mary

pretty tough to live up to the doctrin of the catholic faith and many members often question them

[trotsky]

72. "Cafeteria Catholics"

Yup, that has been my experience too. Particularly when you confront them with one of the nastier aspects of the Catholic Church, like the prohibition of birth control, especially in the poor societies where overpopulation is right up there with the reasons why poverty is so severe.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

18. those who mock the Catholics for "not reading the Bible" usually....

live in little wooden shacks in the woods and procreate with their children.

:eyes:

[ashmanonar]

20. hmm

i think the most interesting thing about the modern catholic church is their deification of mary...at least they have accepted a female presence in god...(interesting, as the original presence of a god/goddess WAS a powerful female...before about 2000 bc (date?), earth goddess worship was common, and was displaced by "sky father" worship throughout history.

certainly the catholics (on average) don't scare me as much as the fundamentalist churches (cults, etc)--(i'm an undecided pagan...)

[Demit]

28. 12 years of Catholic school here.

We read the bible, New Testament and Old.

A statue is not holy. A person is not praying to the statue. Like the US flag, it is not the thing itself (the noumenon, if you will), but a representation of something. You are not "idolizing" the statue, any more than you are being a cannibal for eating the "body and blood of Christ" when taking Communion.

You can be forgiven of venial sins without going to confession, but not mortal ones.

One thing I have to say about the Church, though I've long fallen away, is that it had no problem reconciling science with God's teachings. They weren't afraid of it. And it made sense to us--even the snot-nosed among us who were always trying to catch them out in a contradiction ("Fatha! Fatha! What if you haven't made your Easter duty, but you intended to, but you crossed the International date Line...).

[FreakinDJ]

57. Here Too K - through 12

eom

[trotsky]

73. Well, since that whole Galileo thing, yes, the Catholic church has

been pretty good about science. They are a good example of a religious institution that has embraced the truth of evolution. Maybe because they've been burned so badly in the past by rejecting science, they wanted to be out ahead of that one.

[liberal N proud]

29. So what is that book they read from each church service?

[RUDUing2]

37. you mean the Bible?

[Stunster]

60. Here's another huge site on this topic

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZINDEX.HTM

A rather conservative one, but it has loads and loads and loads of stuff to combat the charge made by some Protestants.

I'm a Catholic. I'm nowhere near being a Biblical fundamentalist, and I wish the Church would condemn such fundamentalism loud, long, and clear, along with other fundamentalist Protestant errors, such as private judgement of Scripture.

Christianity pre-dated the New Testament. I guess the first Christians ought to be denounced for not being Biblical enough. ;-)

[catbert836]

78. And... what?

The current pope has done a lot to fix that. Face it, all religions are based on their scriptures. Catholicism was the first Christian Church, so obviously it's going to be more traditionalist than the others. I personally don't care though. The Roman Catholic Church dosn't reflect every one of my views and some of their views are quite progressive, in fact.