Whats love got to do with it (a rant, sort of)

[LaurenG]

Whether you are religious or agnostic or atheist there has to be common ground for everyone. So we don't all agree on dogma or personal doctrine, there has to be a way to realize that love has everything to do with it and it could be the guiding principle to bring all factions together.

If we treated each other as someone we loved there would be no need to be the only one with "the" valid opinion. We wouldn't see the back biting or arrogance that takes flight around the planet every second.

I call for an end to the bs, and really it's all bs. Unless the heart is open and the discussion respectful, we go in circles calling each other out for our short sightedness.

There is a wonderful definition of insanity.
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. I'm tired of it, it's not working the way we're playing it.

I'd like to know if anyone else has an answer or an opinion.

[Boojatta]

1. One issue

...we go in circles calling each other out for our short sightedness.

Why would calling each other out for our short-sightedness cause us to go in circles?

If we are unaware of our own short-sightedness then is it possible that we will be unable to see that we are going in circles?

Typically it's difficult to remedy a problem that is not clearly identified. Unfortunately, problem descriptions often elicit hostile reactions.

People sometimes say, "I don't want to hear about problems. I want to hear solutions."

Suppose some people on DU should start interrupting threads with proposed solutions to unspecified problems.

Then people might say, "This is off-topic, isn't it?"

The thread interrupters can say, "No, it's on topic. These are proposed solutions to problems that are related to the topic. We aren't supposed to say exactly what those problems are, so you'll have to trust us on this."

[LaurenG]

2. lol, you have a good point.

I was just thinking about how quickly life as we know it is over. I was thinking (with 3 people in mind on this forum) that I argue with and how I really adore them. I really don't mind that they believe something else.

I don't like the separation meanness creates and so this rant just sort of popping out. In the scheme of things it means nothing. I just wish there really was such a thing as unconditional love.

[Silent3]

3. I'm afraid it's not that easy.

Love isn't the most important thing for most religious fundamentalists. Submission to God (a.k.a. submission to their dogma about what God says and what God wants) is more important than love, and even if these extremists love you, the most "loving" thing they can do is try to convert you and save your Eternal Soul from that brutal sadist, er... I mean Big Lovable Guy who really doesn't have any choice but to torture you forever if you're stubborn and don't get with the program.

As for "insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results" -- the fundamentalists most important results happen in the Hereafter. As far as they know, they're getting good results -- they certainly BELEIVE they are -- so doing the same thing over and over again isn't insanity (under this twisted logic), it's sticking with a winning formula.

[LaurenG]

4. I know about conditional love

what you're describing is a pathological personality. It's a mental disorder called religiosity.

I was thinking about more of the way it should be. Don't get me wrong some days I get very frustrated and angry but the bottom line is I really do love people with good hearts. I want to see the best for them as if they were a dear friend or relative. I guess acceptance may be a better term but somehow really loving someone means allowing them the freedom to be themselves without kicking them to the curb.

[bloom]

5. I think that there is a huge difference

in life outlook between people who expect the world to be a place where people are concerned about each other - "love each other" - or whatever you want to call it - and people who have the idea that people should only be concerned with their own self (and sometimes their own group).

This manifests itself in various ways.

It manifests itself in things like the Danish cartoon controversy. Does one think that people should show they have concern for others - respect others sensibilities - or does one think that "free" and highly offensive speech is not only more important - but should be implemented for the purpose of forcing others to accept offense?

It manifests itself in pornography. Some think that that their right to be amused supersedes other people's right to respect. http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/%7Erjensen/freelance/pornography&cruelty.htm

It manifests itself in torture. Some think that if there is any occasion of the torture of others benefiting them personally that there is no reason to condemn it - even if it is worse for everyone in the long run. As long as the people feel quite separate from the group of people being tortured - they don't care about "those" people.

And so forth.

There are "left" and "right" examples of people in that particular group using that group as an excuse to not care about others.

In some issues - there is overlap. The Danish cartoons seemed like that. It seemed that people on the "right" had been more likely to absorb anti-Muslim propaganda - so it was easy for them to not care from that point of view. There were others on the "left" who had become convinced that the issue might infringe on their rights - if people were restricted from committing hate speech.

Some of us do see some porn (what most of the "free speechers" seemed concerned about) as hate speech - and would like to see hate speech either condemned or prohibited. One or the other. And some people are more interested in consuming hate speech than they are in living in a world of respect for others. (And I won't even get into the problem of sex slavery - but that takes it up another level or three).

Of course the Iraq war is a complete lack of respect for the entire country. And anyone who doesn't see it that way - is not considering the POV of the people living there. I think it's disturbing to hear people who only have concern for American soldiers - when the Iraqis have so much more devastation in their lives which is caused by our country and many of the same American soldiers that they are so concerned about.

Concern for the American soldier/concern for the Iraqi people - shows how it's not always a simple thing - black and white - as they say. You can't accept all viewpoints /everyone's "feelings" as being equal. Though it is natural to consider the feelings of those in ones group first. And one may have concern for the torturer (and some of them have some very sad stories - that our press doesn't show) - but it's difficult to do have concern for the torturer if (s)he is still torturing and doesn't see anything wrong with it and you have concern for those who are tortured - at the same time.

I think there has to be some expectation that people care about each other - or the world just seems like crap.

[LaurenG]

6. I have an unpleasant feeling that

we are going to have to learn quickly how to really care about each other if things don't change. I think we may come to agreements all over the globe that our differences are not that great. I'd hate to see what may be coming and us not able to work together. I think it could be the demise of many; not to learn this lesson now.

With that said I think what you are talking about is having some "class" not in the sense that we are "special" but in the sense that we would go out of our way to keep from hurting or offending others. That we would put needs of others above our own. While at the same time ensuring that we had our own NEEDS (not desires), met as well, without harming others.

What a simple concept, why does have to be such a hard lesson to learn?

edit: missing word

[arwalden]

7. That's One Think I've Always Liked About You...

... you've got an optimistic heart and positive outlook. You keep looking for the best in people (even when it's nowhere to be found.)

[LaurenG]

8. You have no idea how much I needed to hear that

I have had the most horrible day and you have made me feel better about myself. I can't tell you how much I appreciate that. The last line just lightened me right up as well, lol. You are a dear, really :hug:

[WritingIsMyReligion]

9. My dad uses the same definition of insanity.

;)