Is this Noah's Ark?

[SaveElmer]

Looks like a rock face to me!!!




http://www.space.com/news/060309_ark_update.html

High on Mt. Ararat in eastern Turkey, there is a baffling mountainside "anomaly," a feature that one researcher claims may be something of biblical proportions.

Images taken by aircraft, intelligence-gathering satellites and commercial remote-sensing spacecraft are fueling an intensive study of the intriguing oddity. But whether the anomaly is some geological quirk of nature, playful shadows, a human-made structure of some sort, or simply nothing at all—that remains to be seen.

Whatever it is, the anomaly of interest rests at 15,300 feet (4,663 meters) on the northwest corner of Mt. Ararat, and is nearly submerged in glacial ice. It would be easy to call it merely a strange rock formation.

But at least one man wonders if it could be the remains of Noah's Ark—a vessel said to have been built to save people and selected animals from the Great Flood, the 40 days and 40 nights of deluge as detailed in the Book of Genesis.

The Genesis blueprint of the Ark detailed the structure as 6:1 length to width ratio (300 cubits by 50 cubits). The anomaly, as viewed by satellite, is close to that 6:1 proportion.

[Walt Starr]

1. No, Noah's Ark never existed because it is a myth.

It is physically impossible for an ark as described in Geneisis to have existed.

[SaveElmer]

3. Yes I agree...

Just puttin it out there...space.com is a good site so thought this article was interesting. Ought to put this myth to bed along with the "Face on Mars"

[Clark2008]

11. May be a myth to you, but it's not to many people.

Here goes the "Christians believe in the tooth fairy" chorus on DU again.

:eyes:

[Walt Starr]

14. It matters not what people believe in, Noah's Ark is a myth

Anybody who denies the mythological quality of Noah's Ark is in denial. It cannot physically have happened as described, ergo, it is a myth.

[Orrex]

20. Doh! Faster than me! (nt)

[mattclearing]

56. Just curious, but what's the disqualifying factor that's impossible?

I always assumed it was myth, but what's the physical impossibility?

[lectrobyte]

59. The number of animal species vs. the size of the boat

[LostinVA]

60. It's been proven for one thing, that a boat built to those

dimensions couldn't float, nor carry that many animals, nor carry enough food and drink for that long for that many animals and people. Other things, too.

[trotsky]

85. Great page here...

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html

Including the question I had the very first time I heard the story in Sunday School: how did kangaroos get from Australia to the ark, and then back again? Or polar bears?

[Ediacara]

91. Besides too many animals, too small of a boat

1) The rock record is entirely inconsistant with a global flood.
2) Where did the water come from and where did it go?

[Orrex]

15. Sorry, but it's a myth to them, too

Whether or not they believe it is irrelevant. It's a myth.

[Gregorian]

33. Thank you.

It irks me as well. Not to be offensive, but I doubt these people have studied the bible in great depth. It's very easy to blow it off, unless one has worked on it.

But simply put, unless everything in the bible is myth, it isn't myth. Everything must be a myth. And that is not the case. Jesus lived.

[Walt Starr]

42. I've made an indepth study of the Bible

The Q'uran, The Bhagavad Gita, the Upanishads, and many other relgious myths.

Comparative Mythology has been a subject of fascination for me over the years.

[Gregorian]

47. If you look for mythology, you'll find mythology.

I'm not going into this anymore. I'm here as a Democrat. It's not my place to be dragging myself through the Old Testament to find the predictions that are incontrovertable. The things that make the bible impossible to be just a myth.

[Walt Starr]

48. Historically, every religion has been based upon myth

Why is one religion different from every other religion in the world?

[Radio_Guy]

65. Even Wicca?

I'm not even close to being an expert on Wiccans, but my understanding is it is based on nature, not myths.

[LostinVA]

79. uh-oh

[greyl]

82. Yes, Wicca is only 60 years old

and based on the natural religious mythology of Paganism.
Science is based on nature, not Wicca. Wicca doesn't have myths that are as elaborate as Hinduism or Christianity, for example, but the mythological content is undeniable.

[Radio_Guy]

83. OK. Thanks, greyl

I'm not as familiar with Wicca as I would like to be. But I'm going to make it a point to read more about it this summer. Thanks again.

[Solon]

94. Of course Wicca is based on myth...

just like every other religion on the planet, and I say this as a Wiccan! But that doesn't mean that there aren't nuggets of truth within said myths. Take Noah's flood for example, we know, for a fact, that during the last ice age, the sea level was much lower than it is today. If humans back then are anything like they are today, if much more primitive, then it wouldn't be too far outside conventional wisdom to believe that many human villages and settlements, if only hunter/gatherer types, existed on those coastlines. Easy fishing and mild weather makes for somewhat easy living on the coasts after all. However, a little over 10,000 years ago, the ice receded, how rapidly, we don't know, and the sea levels rose. Given this, any settlments were innundated, in some areas large flash floods occured, severe storms etc. In other words, a traumatic effect happened to much of the human race. It wouldn't surprise me a least bit if such an even was then told and retold over generations through oral stories, then, eventually, written down when written language was invented. Not to say they are 100% accurate accounts, ever play telephone? You would see how stories told through generations can be exhaggerated, skewed, and adapted to the culture they birthed from. But they could still be considered based on real events, sorta like Hollywood movies that have that same disclaimer. :)

[manic expression]

110. I disagree

all religions HAVE myths, not all are BASED upon myths. There is quite a difference. For instance, you can take away all of the stories about deities in many religions but the religion itself, along with its theological concepts, will remain intact. Christianity (and to a lesser extent, Islam and Judaism), however, is entirely based off of a story, a story which is not based on fact or history or reality.

[DetroitProle]

52. So you have a degree and research projects?

Sponsored by a university? The government?
Or did you get your masters or doctorate in coparative religions?
Do tell.
Because...well, I'm going to withold my comments until I get an answer.

[Gregorian]

61. Do I have to defend myself now?

My father is 82, and has spent his entire life studying the bible in great detail. He has a degree in divinity from a non-fundy school. One that he got in the '40's. No, it's not MY degree. But I learned from him. We both are appauled by the crap that constitutes the majority of what gets passed around as "Christianity". The only church we have ever attended is the Stanford Memorial church. And there we are personal friends with Doctor Greg. Now he does happen to have all of the things you mention in your post.
I defend the bible like I defend the Constitution. And I find it equally as difficult to see people who like Bush as I do people who disrespect other truths. And in the long run, it's not my job to push this onto anyone. But when I see posts that simply dismiss the bible as myth, I get pretty bothered. It's very easy to just buy into Bush's bullshit. But upon looking deeper, one sees the truth. It's not easy to find. The media isn't helping. And the same goes for the bible. It's unique. It's not like every other religion.

But I suppose when Jesus does come back again, people still won't believe. That's fine with me. But I don't like it when they do what amounts to swiftboating. Bush deserves bashing. But not Kerry. And not the bible.

Enough. I'm wasting my time.

[Walt Starr]

63. Oh wow, now your requirements go beyond even reading the Bible

after you find out somebody took the time to read the thing, in multiple translations, and compare it yto other religious myths before coming to the conlusion that the bible is not unlike any other religious myth.

Wow, somebody meets and exceeds original standards and now you raise the bar.

so from this I must infer that nobody can truly be a Christian or comment on anything remotely related to religion without meeting the same standards you have just set for me.

Excuse me if I find the implications of your requirements beyond ludicrous.

[DetroitProle]

64. My requirements?

I've never once gotten involved in a religion post at DU.

This isn't about Christians, or commenting on anything related to religion.

Know what I was attacking? "In depth study". If someone claims to have had, "In depth study" of something, they better have a degree or something to back it up. Just cracking open a few holy books from the community college library doesn't mean one has done, "in depth study". Pretending to be an expert in a field of study where one is not is intellectually dishonest or unethical.
(furthermore, I wasn't saying the poster did or didn't have in depth study. I just wanted to know what it was).

Now, back to the real topic:
I believe most religious beliefs are myths(if not all). HOWEVER, that does NOT discount religious texts. These can be vastly useful historical accounts. Sure, they're inaccurate and embellished, but so was EVERYTHING up until the Renaissance, at least. Finding texts that date back to old testament days is nigh-on-impossible as it is.
So saying that all religious texts are myths I disagree with. I'm "in depth study"ing history, and these are valuable resources. Religious beliefs? Myths almost by definition.
And no, I don't believe Noah's Ark exists or ever existed.

[Walt Starr]

66. Your requirements are bogus

My in depth study of the Bible includes multiple readings in multiple tranlsations while comparing the work to stories found in other mythology.

People can have comparative mythology as a hobby, bullshit requirements from another poster on a message board notwithstanding.

[DetroitProle]

67. "my" requirements are bullshit?

Come to WSU and try to get hired as a researcher by saying you have "in depth study" and then when inquired as to what it is, start ranting and raving about how you don't have to defend yourself. Prepare to get laughed out of the building.
I thought we could find a point of agreement in my post in that:
-I just wanted to you to specify what your "in depth study"(that you claimed, not me), was,
-that we could agree religious texts could be studied in historical contexts,
-that religious beliefs in general could reasonably be discounted as mythology, as you say.

But you're too far up on your high horse with your daddy's degree and your secretive "research".
Maybe you can found the religion-bashing equivalent of Liberty University, where accredidation doesn't matter, and you can just teach whatever you believe.
Keep up the good work with your "in depth study" of "mythology", Professor Lunchbox.

[Walt Starr]

68. Where the FUCK in this thread have I tried to get hired as a researcher???

WHERE, POINT ME TO IT!

[DetroitProle]

69. You're missing the point.

You're pretending to have "in depth study" of a subject and trying to offer an expert opinion based on this. Expert testimony something real, tangible, and admissable in court. Not some amorphous self-definition, or something I just made up as "bullshit standards".
But oops, you're just a hack. Testimony discredited.

[Walt Starr]

70. Nope, you have missed the poiint entirely

and now, I cast you into the pit of IGNORE!

[DetroitProle]

72. I was just about to do the same.

Looks like we can agree on something, professor.

[muriel_volestrangler]

87. Are you saying you need a degree before you can call Noah's Ark a myth?

Because that was all Walt Starr did (reply #1). Reply #11 said "may be a myth to you, but it's not to many people". Then #33 said "not to be offensive, but I doubt these people have studied the bible in great depth. It's very easy to blow it off, unless one has worked on it." Walt replied to that with "I've made an indepth study of the Bible - The Q'uran, The Bhagavad Gita, the Upanishads, and many other relgious myths."

He was just replying to the dismissive remark that "these people" haven't studied the bible in great depth. He never said his was an "expert opinion" - those are your words (and "admissable in court" is a bizarre phrase to drag into a discussion on myth).

By all standards of common English, the story of Noah's Ark counts as a myth. If you think that we need degrees in religious studies before we can make a statement like that, then you better state your qualifications right now, and never stray from your specialist topic. If everyone followed that course, the discussion on DU would be practically dead.

[Zhade]

95. Um, you're replying to the WRONG POSTER.

Walt isn't the one who brough up his dad's degrees - that was Gregorian.

I think you and Walt are more in agreement than you both think!

[LostinVA]

51. Jesus has nothing to do with Noah's Ark

And yeah, much of the OT is 100% myth... it is not fact, and can be proven that it isn't. And yeah, I believed this when I was a Christian. You can believe in the Gospels and the redemption of Jesus and still recognize most of the OT as Middle Eastern allegories and myths. This is not an anti-Christian view. I have many years of theology and "bible study" under my belt, btw.

If you believe in Noah's Ark, that's fine -- it's your belief, your right. But, saying it isn't real is not an anti-Christian bias.

[Goblinmonger]

75. Even the fact that Jesus lived

takes a pretty good leap of faith given the evidence.

So you believe everything in the bible then? OT and NT? Literally? Creation? Handicapped can't enter the temple? All of it? Seriously?

[muriel_volestrangler]

86. Simply, and illogically, put

"unless everything in the bible is myth, it isn't myth". You are claiming that one single piece of fact in the Bible means that everything in the Bible is true. That's ridiculous. That's like saying "unless everything on DU is false, my post isn't false". Just because there are other books in the Bible, written by other authors, that contain some incontestable facts, it does not confer any kind of legitimacy on the rest of the collection.

[Gregorian]

90. If anything on DU is true about Bush, he's a fraud.

That's what I mean. And if Jesus rose from the dead, he's the son of god. If any single one of the things that you think are myths are not a myth, then he is more than just a philosopher.

Darn it. I had a big post all written up, and they moved this thread.



I will just post what I was going to say in this post. I am really amazed at my own reaction to all of this. I love Blackadder. But I have watched myself in these posts here, and have found myself getting ready to "burn an embassy". I have no idea why I get so crazed about this here. I can only say that it feels exactly the same way I get when I see someone who LUVS BUSH. I also get enraged the same way. Religion is personal. And I've come to the conclusion that Jesus is not a myth, nor a philosopher. I believe that he is the son of god. No one knows. No one really knows. But in the light of what I have been shown in both bibles (which are much more than just books), I have a huge bit of reason that I simply cannot deny nor pass off as myth.

I won't be posting on religion in this forum any more. I want to stay here.

[tridim]

41. 2 of each species..

What's that come out to, about 10 million animals on a single ark? How did Noah acquire animals on other continents?

It's a nice myth, but it's only a myth.

[Igel]

115. Nope.

At least get the myth right. Not that it much matters, except to the truly anal retentive.

Male and female of each animal that's unclean, and 7 pairs of each animal that's clean.

That does a few things: provides meat; provides indication that animals could be considered 'clean' before the Leviticus part of the narrative, which you obviously can take however you feel like taking; and it makes for yet more animals.

But fundies have no problem with this. Evolutionists freak at the implications of what some creationists say. Because the text includes something like "after their kind." The interpretation goes that really only genera were intended, with massive amounts of speciation afterwards. It really reduces the size of the ark and the amount of food. But it really makes the fossil chronology a hell of a problem.

[LostinVA]

45. Noah's Ark really has nothing to do with Christianity

When I taught CCD, I taught it as an allegory....

I very much considered myself a Christian then, and my still-Christian parents also consider it an allegory about God.

[arwalden]

71. Who Said Anything About Christians?

[Goblinmonger]

74. Clearly not what was said.

It was a specific comment about the ark. Are you denying it is a myth? Adam and Eve is seen by a lot of people as being 100% real, do you not rail against the ID crowd?

[Nikia]

98. My anthropology professor pointed out that myth=outright lie

Every culture has their myths, stories about their past that explain their values and who they are. They may be based upon real stories, some to greater extent than others, but they contain messages that people wanted to pass on.

[tjwmason]

108. Given the presence of a great flood myth

across several different cultures - don't you accept that some form of flood is more likely than not to have taken place?

I'm definitely not talking about Genesis word-for-word, nor indeed any of the other accounts word-for-word, but that sort of common folk memory arises somewhere.

[FreedomAngel82]

2. It looks like a rock to me too

:shrug:

[stop the bleeding]

4. looks like rock to me

then again I am not a geologist

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fenris]

6. Hi. Noah's Ark is a recycled and adapted myth.

It's quite unlikely that a) such a boat existed or b) would be physically identifiable now.

:hi:

[SaveElmer]

13. Yeah...I prefaced the post with my skepticism...

I think the entire old testament is myth. I'm hoping these pictures puts this nonsense to rest...just like the "Face on Mars" Space.com is a good site and I am sure is highlighting this for the same reason!

[Fenris]

17. We have a psychological tendency to see things like faces.

Which is why some people can look at photographs and think they see ghosts - our brains are trained to identify faces and such. If you were looking for a boat in a photograph of a mountain, chances are you would find at least one.

[Walt Starr]

19. I wouldn't say it's entirely mythological

although it is mostly mythological, there are some genuinely applicable historical accounts within the documents contained in the OT.

[Speck Tater]

7. It looks like the Mother Ship to me.

Get real. Noah's ark is straight out of Babylonian mythology, where it was originally built by a guy named Gilgamesh. When the Jewish culture borrowed the story they changed old Gilgi's name to something more Jewish sounding, but the story is essentially unchanged from its Babylonian roots.

Next thing you know somebody is going to start digging around for the ruins of Cinderella's Castle or start searching for traces of the houses built by the three little pigs.

I fear the human race is doomed when so many people are unable to distinguish between fantasy and reality.

[okasha]

81. Wrong.

Gilgamesh is only tangentially connected to the Sumerian (not Babylonian) flood myth. The "Sumerian Noah" was Ut-Napishtim, not Gilgamesh.

[Igel]

116. In historical linguistics there's this rule

that first attestation of a word or feature says something about how young that word/feature can't be, but nothing about how old the word/feature is. You see 'stay the course' attested first in 1813, it doesn't mean it wasn't used 500 years before that and not written down--but you do know that it wasn't first used in 1814.

The Sumerian and Semitic tales may be derived from a third, now unknown, source; or perhaps one borrowed from the other. Which way it went we can't be sure about, since we know very little about the Sumerians and their contacts before we have the written record; we just know dates of first attestation (and those have changed over time), not what preceded first attestation. And since Sumerian first attestations tend to be really, really first attestations, we're left with nothing to compare.

Folklorists are content with assuming that first attestation means more than it necessarily does, making arguments from silence, and making claims about overall culture and prestige of the various cultures that may not have the results we expect. It means they can have a narrative that's not a mass of contingencies, but at the expense of the actual validity of their conclusions.

[ReadTomPaine]

8. "The anomaly" .... "is close to that 6:1 proportion."

So in other words - it's NOT 6:1 in proportion. Gotta love that.

How to turn up into down, one step at a time.

[BattyDem]

35. Maybe we'd be able to determine the proportions by sculpting a replica

Does anyone have any mashed potatoes? :evilgrin:

[ReadTomPaine]

43. LOL!

Great shot :)

[KyuzoGator]

9. Yes, Noah's Ark is parked between Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.

nt

[Sapere aude]

10. Yeah, like a guy could build a boat that could hold and feed two of every

species on earth. Give me an f__ing break.

Last week they found the hiding place of the tooth ferry. I think it was in Tibet somewhere.

[FSogol]

12. Saved "Selected Animals" ? Wasn't it 2 of EVERY animal?

Maybe something I learned in Sunday School Class wasn't 100% accurate? :sarcasm:

[ReadTomPaine]

16. The Unicorn didn't make it...

http://musicmoz.org/img/editors/portlandpiper/irish%20rovers:%20the%20unicorn%20cover.jpg

[arwalden]

73. For Example: What Did The Lions Eat For 40 Days? And Afterwards...

... what did the lions have to PREY on? If they ate just ONE of any remaining species... then that species was doomed!


How did Noah get the Kangaroos? Well, okay then... how did the kangaroos get BACK to Australia?

Isn't it true that the BEETLES ALONE would have taken up more room than the ark had? (Or was it one of those "Dr. Who" type arks? Small-on-the-outside-BIG-on-the-inside.)

It's just one of those MYTHS that wasn't thought-out very well... or was only intended to be told to folks who lack the capacity for THINKING things out for themselves very well.

(If you know what I mean... and I think you do.)

[LostinVA]

80. hehehehe... a TARDIS ark....

[indie_voter]

18. Another vote for rock. n/t

[gekeeley]

21. Looks...

like it to me. I bet they'll find Bigfoot and the Lockness with it too, and maybe Jimmy Hoffa. :eyes:

[Walt Starr]

22. It's not Noah's ark, it's YGGDRASIL!!! The Tree of Life!!!

If you look closely, you can see where the dragon is gnawing on the tree's roots!

[hlthe2b]

23. I think if you look really really closely...

.
.....

...........
.
..................


.


...................




................

you can see the brass plate SS Noah's Ark, est. 2000 BC (how DID they know?!). I think I can see the great ship's bell, too! And the mast! WOWEE :evilgrin:

[magellan]

24. There was a 1976 movie called "In Search of Noah's Ark"

...in which archeologists purported to have found the ark resting on the slopes of Mt Ararat. This looks curiously like the same photos from that movie. In any case, the film was a sham; the discoverer "dug up" pieces of wood that he actually made and weathered himself back home to support his theory.

[BattyDem]

25. I think it's either Elvis, D.B. Cooper or Amelia Earhart's plane

:P

[sutz12]

26. They first saw that decades ago...

when the first satellites went up. It's been visited. It's a rock.

[spuddonna]

27. "That's no rock. That's a ledge...."

"A ledge is like a big stone... only it's bigger."
-Mr Blandings Builds His Dream House

It'sa just a ledge, it'sa not an Ark! lol

[Ava]

28. i'm a christian

but i don't think that is noah's ark. i'm am however, shocked and disgusted by people's attitudes towards those of us who believe in any religion. you get mad at people for attacking athiests, but it's alright for you to attack religious people. it's hypocritical.

I'm a true Christian and proud of it.


edit to add another pic:

[Walt Starr]

31. Be shocked all you want

It doesn't change the fact that Noah's Ark is a myth.

[QuettaKid]

40. as a christian, I have a serious question for you.

Do you really and truly with all of your soul honestly believe that the Lord G-d almighty sent bears to eat up 42 little kids because they made fun of a bald man? Do you believe that really happened?

[LostinVA]

55. There is NO doctrinal reason for a Christian to believe in Noah's Ark

NONE. All you need to believe is what you find in the Gospels. Period. Those of us calling this a myth are not anti-Christian. MANY MANY MANY Christians don't believe this, or David and Goliath, etc. It does not negate your faith.

[Ava]

76. I NEVER SAID I BELIEVED IN NOAH'S ARK!

I even said i thought it was just a rock. My response was to a post that has since been removed. The post said that people who believed in religion were idiots and so on. As for the bear story, no, i don't believe it happened. I follow the Gospels like you said above. I never said those of you calling Noah's ark a myth were anti-Christian, I don't believe the Noah's ark story either. Like i said, my response was directed at one person in particular.

[muriel_volestrangler]

88. OK, if you are directing your response at one person

it can save misunderstandings like that if you reply to that post, rather than the OP, with a post that talks about "people's attitudes", which looks very general. :hi:

[Zhade]

93. Of course, no one reacted as you say they did.

People are, IMHO rightly, mocking people dumb enough to literally believe the Noah story.

Since it's physically impossible, lifted from earlier flood myths, and never proven to have happened - and evidence galore shows it COULDN'T have happened as biblically described - people who believe it should question their belief in it, just like anyone believing the sun revolves around the earth should understand that their belief is really, really out of touch with reality.

It boggles my mind that anyone smart enough to be liberal would be dumb enough to believe the Noah myth to be true. It's quite strange.

(Not that you believe in it.)

[opihimoimoi]

29. To Small to be the vessel to hold all of the animals.birds of the Earth...

How did, if it was true, all the animals go out to various places like Austrailia, S America, etc???

The guys who wrote this musta been camping nx to the Cannibus Forest....

[Cyrano]

30. Another Cheney scam. Another Halliburton contract to investigate further.

[hlthe2b]

32. I've always considered the most interesting thing about Ararat...

to be why the Turkish Government won't let people go check it out? That's the real mystery, IMO...

[Walt Starr]

39. No mystery at all, it has to do with racism more than anything else

It borders Armenian and Kurdish areas.

No mystery to why they don't want people screwing around the mountain as historical racial enemies abound in the region.

[ReadTomPaine]

50. I thought it had to do with missile bases in the area ...

during the cold war.

On the north side, Ararat has its roots in the Araxes (Aras) River valley. There it rises from the valley elevation of about 760 meters above sea level. In that area the Araxes River is the border demarcation between Turkey and Russia. The top of the mountain is only about 30 kilometers from the border. For some years both the Turkish and the Soviet governments have been touchy about foreigners exploring on Ararat because of military security precautions. Therefore it was difficult to get permission to climb it

http://www.allaboutturkey.com/ararat.htm

[Ediacara]

92. Do you think the Turks will let American Christian fundimentalists...

...roam freely in Kurdish and Armenian areas? Expeditions have already been mounted, it's already been shown to be a rock.

[leftofthedial]

34. STOP THE PRESSES! I see the face of the virgin mary just to the side there

Praise gawdjeezis!

[bluerum]

36. Sweet Jesus - look at that picture!! It's a freakin ROCK formation!

[alfredo]

37. Attempting to find physical evidence is a sign

of little, or wavering faith.

[mzteris]

38. You mean Utnapishtim's ark?

This is a Babylonian myth.

From the (Sumerian) Epic of Gilgamesh (incorporating the Babylonian legend predating THAT):

Gilgamesh meets with Utnapishtim and his wife. Utnapisthim tells Gilgamesh the story of the flood and how he survived. Enlil became angered with mankind and decided to send a flood to destroy them all. Enki, however, warned Utnapishtim of the gods plans and instructed him to build a boat to save himself, his family, friends, artisans, precious metals, and the animals.

What I had, I loaded thereon, the whole harvest of my life
I caused to embark within the vessel; all my family and relations, the beasts of the field, the cattle of the field, the craftsmen, I made them all embark.
I entered the vessel and closed the door....
When the young dawn gleamed forth from the foundations of heaven a black cloud arose; Adad roared in it, Nabu and the King march in front....Nergal seizeth the mast, he goeth, Inurta leadeth the attack...The tumult of Adad ascends to the skies.
All that is bright is turned into darkness, the brother seeth the brother no more, the folk of the skies can no longer recognize each other.
The gods feared the flood, they fled, they climbed into the heaven of Anu, the gods crouched like a dog on the wall, they lay down....for six days and nights wind and flood marched on, the hurricane subdued the land. When the seventh day dawned the hurricane was abated, the flood which had waged war like an army; The sea was stilled, the ill wind was calmed, the flood ceased.
I beheld the sea, its voice was silent and all of mankind was turned into mud! As high as the roofs reached the swamp! I beheld the world, the horizon of sea; Twelve measures away an island emerged; Unto mount Nitsir came the vessel, mount Nitsir held the vessel and let it not budge...
When the seventh day came I sent forth a dove, I released it; It went, the dove, it came back, as there was no place, it came back. I sent forth a swallow, I released it; It went, the swallow, it came back, as there was no place, it came back. I sent forth a crow, I released it; It went, the crow, and beheld the subsidence of the waters; It eats, it splashes about, it caws, it comes not back.


<* Mount Nisir, where Utnapishtim's Ark is said to have grounded was, in Sumerian, called Mount Mashu ("Twin", for its twin peaks). It was a sacred mountain was located in Mesopotamia east of the Tigris river, about 350 miles south of the biblical "mountains of Ararat" in modern south-eastern Turkey. In some later Semitic records it was also called Mount Nimush. >


There was a "major flood" around 2900 BCE in southern Mesopotamia - (localized - not world-wide)

[Walt Starr]

46. DING DING DING DING DING DING DING!!! Folks, we have a winner!

Well done, mythologies of one culture are often stolen by other cultures.

Take Chrsitmas and Easter, for example.

[lastliberalintexas]

58. And the Babylonians may have borrowed from one of the Chinese

myths of creation, which I believe predates their story by a few hundred years? Nothing new under the sun. :)

[mzteris]

62. Flood myths from around the world

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html

[hunter]

77. Some unfortunate farmer....

... recognized that something bad was about to happen.

So he built a boat and put his family and all his animals on it.

His neighbors thought he was a fool, but he was right, something bad did happen. His neighbors all drowned, but he and his family floated away to safety.

Afterwards he got really drunk and lay naked inside his tent. His sons were upset by this.

It's all in the Bible, just like that.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

44. I have a link to an eyewitness account which will proove the existance!

<snip>
Noah began to collect animals. There was to be one couple of each and every sort of creature that walked or crawled, or swam or flew, in the world of animated nature. We have to guess at how long it took to collect the creatures and how much it cost, for there is no record of these details. When Symmachus made preparation to introduce his young son to grown-up life in imperial Rome, he sent men to Asia, Africa and everywhere to collect wild animals for the arena-fights. It took the men three years to accumulate the animals and fetch them to Rome. Merely quadrupeds and alligators, you understand -- no birds, no snakes, no frogs, no worms, no lice, no rats, no fleas, no ticks, no caterpillars, no spiders, no houseflies, no mosquitoes -- nothing but just plain simple quadrupeds and alligators: and no quadrupeds except fighting ones. Yet it was as I have said: it took three years to collect them, and the cost of animals and transportation and the men's wages footed up $4,500,000.

How many animals? We do not know. But it was under five thousand, for that was the largest number ever gathered for those Roman shows, and it was Titus, not Symmachus, who made that collection. Those were mere baby museums, compared to Noah's contract. Of birds and beasts and fresh-water creatures he had to collect 146,000 kinds; and of insects upwards of two million species.

Thousands and thousands of those things are very difficult to catch, and if Noah had not given up and resigned, he would be on the job yet, as Leviticus used to say. However, I do not mean that he withdrew. No, he did not do that. He gathered as many creatures as he had room for, and then stopped.

If he had known all the requirements in the beginning, he would have been aware that what was needed was a fleet of Arks. But he did not know how many kinds of creatures there were, neither did his Chief. So he had no Kangaroo, and no 'possom, and no Gila monster, and no ornithorhynchus, and lacked a multitude of other indispensable blessings which a loving Creator had provided for man and forgotten about, they having long ago wandered to a side of this world which he had never seen and with whose affairs he was not acquainted. And so everyone of them came within a hair of getting drowned.

They only escaped by an accident. There was not water enough to go around. Only enough was provided to flood one small corner of the globe -- the rest of the globe was not then known, and was supposed to be nonexistent.

However, the thing that really and finally and definitely determined Noah to stop with enough species for purely business purposes and let the rest become extinct, was an incident of the last days: an excited stranger arrived with some most alarming news. He said he had been camping among some mountains and valleys about six hundred miles away, and he had seen a wonderful thing there: he stood upon a precipice overlooking a wide valley, and up the valley he was a billowy black sea of strange animal life coming. Presently the creatures passed by, struggling, fighting, scrambling, screeching, snorting -- horrible vast masses of tumultuous flesh! Sloths as big as an elephant; frogs as big as a cow; a megatherium and his harem huge beyond belief; saurians and saurians and saurians, group after group, family after family, species after species -- a hundred feet long, thirty feet high, and twice as quarrelsome; one of them hit a perfectly blameless Durham bull a thump with its tail and sent it whizzing three hundred feet into the air and it fell at the man's feet with a sigh and was no more. The man said that these prodigious animals had heard about the Ark and were coming. Coming to get saved from the flood. And not coming in pairs, they were all coming: they did not know the passengers were restricted to pairs, the man said, and wouldn't care a rap for the regulations, anyway -- they would sail in that Ark or know the reason why. The man said the Ark would not hold the half of them; and moreover they were coming hungry, and would eat up everything there was, including the menagerie and the family.
<snip>
Satan as told to Mark Twain

See Letter 5

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/twainlfe.htm

M

[Sheri]

49. I vote rock.

should we take a poll? :rofl:

btw, pretty obvious the formation was created by wind erosion. lots of shallow-sloped curves.

[Sheri]

57. Reply-to-self.

or ice erosion. looks glacial.

how much can I remember from my geology class? :7

[IChing]

53. Apparently the Religious Forum on DU is closed for repairs

and this dribble has to be posted here.

[SaveElmer]

54. Well I posted it here cause I thought it was more than strictly religious.

After all it came from Space.com

[grumpy old fart]

78. That's "drivel" not "dribble". Just 'cause it's basketball season.......

is no excuse to be sloppy with our language, now is it?

[arwalden]

84. Heh-heh-heh!

:rofl: :thumbsup:

[TreasonousBastard]

89. Probably not, but...

I always wonder why this stuff is always discussed in Christian terms. I never hear from the rabbis when these questions come up and since their ancestors WROTE the thing, they just might have some insight, eh.

How about an "Ask the Jew" forum where some real OT experts could chime in?

[Nikia]

97. I think they consider that part of Genesis as allegory

Everything before that as well. At least that's what I read.

[daleo]

96. It looks more like the whale that swallowed Jonah

I heard it got frozen in the ice age of 2500 B.C. - the one that killed the dinosaurs and trilobites.

[dtotire]

99. Possible Explanation of the Source of the Myth

I found this very interesting

The first book about Noah's flood that makes sense

Noah's Ark and the Ziusudra Epic: Sumerian Origins of the Myth is a book that takes a fresh look at six versions of the Ancient Near East flood myth, demythologizes them, and combines the various story elements like pieces of a jigsaw picture puzzle into one coherent story. There actually was an archaeologically confirmed flood about 2900 BC on which the ark stories were based, but it was a local river flood, not a global deluge. The original ark stories were about a small commercial river barge that was hauling a few hundred cattle, sheep, and goats, but there were no kangaroos, lions, apes, elephants, or giraffes on that cattle barge.

The emphasis in this book is on what was physically possible, technologically practical, and consistent wth archaeological facts in ancient Sumer, now southern Iraq. The result of this synthesis is a reconstruction of a lost legend about a Sumerian king named Ziusudra who was chief executive of the city-state Shuruppak at the end of the Jemdet Nasr period about 2900 BC. A six-day thunderstorm caused the Euphrates River to rise 15 cubits, overflow the levees, and flood Shuruppak and a few other cities in Sumer. A few feet of yellow sediment deposited by this river flood is archaeologically attested and artifacts at about this sediment level have been radiocarbon dated.

When the levees overflowed, Ziusudra (Noah) boarded a commercial river barge that had been hauling grain, beer, and other cargo on the Euphrates River. The barge floated down the river into the Persian (Arabian) Gulf where it grounded in an estuary at the mouth of the river. Ziusudra (Noah) then offered a sacrifice on an altar at the top of a nearby hill which storytellers mistranslated as mountain. This led them to falsely assume that the nearby barge had grounded on top of a mountain. Actually it never came close to a mountain.

Skeptics are correct when they say Noah's flood (as it is commonly understood) could not have happened, because many of the story elements, such as grounding of the ark in the mountains of Ararat, would have been physically impossible. This book uncovers how the mountains of Ararat got involved in the story (Noah did not go there) and locates the precise spot (within a few meters) of where Noah offered his sacrifice. This is a historical site (not on a mountain) that has already been excavated by archaeologists.

After the ark grounded, Noah met other survivors of the flood and some of the things they discussed are mentioned in the myth that priests and storytellers told about the flood. Noah's family separated and Noah had to flee into exile, because of conflicts between Noah and other survivors of the flood. The place where Noah lived until his death is identified in this book. Noah's sons traveled northwest on foot along the Tigris River and settled at a place identified in this book.

The incredible numbers in Genesis 5 were the result of an ancient scribe mistranslating some archaic pre-cuneiform numbers into cuneiform sexagesimal numbers. The incredible numbers in the Sumerian King List were also mistranslated by another ancient scribe. This book successfully matches the Genesis 5 numbers to the Sumerian King List numbers.

For further details, please click on your area of interest in the menu bar on the left, or click on Next page for a tour of the Subjects.

home page
http://www.noahs-ark-flood.com/

[daleo]

100. Yes, I have read reviews of this book

It seems like it could be a foundation for the Noah story.

Some of these accounts may be drawn from real events and conflated enormously by time and religious belief structures. Others may just be whoppers that got swapped around the campfire so long that people forgot that they were made up.

Greek mythology is probably the same - Many events in The Iliad may have a basis in fact, while The Odyssey is mostly made up. The latter makes better movies anyway.

[Inland]

101. Looks like the face of Jesus to me.

Or a tortilla. I haven't decided.

[SPKrazy]

102. So Why Doesn't Some Rich Fundie Fund A Search For It?

they've seen this formation in the ice for years on Mt. Ararat

Why doesn't some group go check it out?

[charlie]

104. Probably because

they don't want to waste their money debunking it. This is something like the 6th ark found on the mountain. On the other hand, there's plenty of cash in speculative books and movies, and it makes a dazzling highlight for Biblical archaeology roadshows... as long as it remains a mystery.

[trotsky]

109. Exactly.

Far more valuable as an unknown.

[charlie]

112. Yep. However, if you're really enterprising

you can profit from long-dismissed sites, too. Just continue to insist it is, it IS the ark

http://www.arkdiscovery.com/noah's_ark.htm

and put up a visitor's center for the credulous.




Best part, you can even do it on someone else's dime.

http://www.anchorstone.com/content/view/20/30/
http://www.anchorstone.com

Now, that's showbizness.

[trotsky]

113. LMAO at this line:

Aluminum was found in the fittings which is a MAN-MADE metal!

I had no idea! Wow, somebody has to synthesize all that aluminum (aluminium for the purists!) so it can be on the periodic table? Dang!

On edit: FURTHER LMAO!

Visitors' center built by the government to accommodate tourists further confirms its authenticity.

Well goll dangit, if the gubmint put something up to help snooker people out of their tourism dollars, there MUST really be something there!

[charlie]

114. It comes ready-made with foil wrap!

Leave the Reynolds at home, we've got everything you need right here. What more could a Seeker of Truth ask for?

[NMMNG]

103. I vote for rock face

But if people are desperate enough to see something they'll see whatever it is they want to see. :shrug:

[varkam]

105. Looks like a pirate ship to me...

And you know what that means :evilgrin:

[NMMNG]

106. FSM!!!

All hail his Noodly Appendages!

[salvorhardin]

107. Looks like pareidolia to me

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia

[knitter4democracy]

111. That was debunked.

Apparently Russian scientists managed to reach that site (or another one nearby, I forget), and it was a rock, not remains of the ark.

I remember the first time I heard about that. I was in college, and someone had some video some evangelist had put out on it. It convinced most kids who saw it, but I kept saying that video isn't good enough, that it takes someone actually finding it and seeing what it really is. That's why I remember reading the Russian report last year--finally proved I was right all those years ago. ;)