Are Atheists welcome in this group?

[Az]

Of course courtiousness is expected. But I was just wondering if this group is supposed to be theist exclusive. Particularly considering the fact that there are religions that are nontheistic.

I have no desire to interfere where I am not invited. And it has been mentioned by some individual(s) that this is a theist group. So please let me and the other atheists know if we are intruding.

Thanks :D

[Liberty Belle]

1. You're welcome here.

The Democrats are a big tent party. We welcome people of all faiths, as well as agnostics and atheists.

[Maat]

2. Yep.

And there is an Atheists/Agnostics DU Group too. And, as you know, we have our Seekers on Unique Paths DU Group.

You raise good questions, Az.

Take care!

[davoarid]

9. There is an atheist/agnostic group here?

I'm new here, and still haven't found it.

[Az]

10. Its in the DU Groups subfolder

Just below the nonpolitical folder.

[trotsky]

11. I think you have to be a contributing DUer to read groups.

Just donate $5 and you'll be in!

[AZCat]

12. Non-members can read, they just can't post

From Skinner's thread titled What are DU Groups? comes this:
<snip>
4. Only members with a DU Donor star next to their username may post messages in the DU Groups. Non-donors and non-registered lurkers are permitted to read DU Groups, but they are blocked from posting in them.
</snip>

[vixengrl]

3. Atheists have as much to say

as theists--having the same evidence--so says an agnostic (or pantheist, or pagan, if the wind is southerly). Welcome.

[Stunster]

4. Very much so

It's especially fun when they pounce and vent on anybody defending theism on a religion and theology forum as 'having issues', because by doing so, they demonstrate that they themselves don't have any 'issues'.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

25. I've never pretended not to have "issues",

although I've never pounced on anyone here (well, not yet, although I hope to someday), but my excuse is that I come from the UK, where all schools have a compulsory "daily act of collective worship of a broadly christian nature".

Fourteen years of being made to sing the same three dozen hymns about how wonderful it is that I'm going to be tortured for all eternity, and how richly I deserve this, because I'm not a christian have left me with "issues" you could bend a horseshoe around.

I do try and divide my attitude towards christianity up fairly clearly into rational (it's been responsible for a lot of good deeds, and it preaches a version of morality that's better than many, but it's wrong on several key moral issues, and, crucially, it's *not true*) and irrational (kill! Kill! KILL!) parts, though, and not to unleash the latter except on people who deserve it.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

5. Where have you been?

Freak republic? I, an avowed atheist, have been here since the beginning.
I'm not planning to leave anytime soon.

As somebody stated on some movie that I watched a few weeks ago, "God is an imaginary friend for adults". I think that pretty much sums it up.

[youngred]

6. I'm not a founder

or regular contributor, but I'd say we all do better when all sides are presented. The main thing to remember in all this is respect for others beliefs. I know you are more than capable of such respect and friendly debate, I don't know that all (on both sides) are. As long as we keep it respectful I see no reason why atheists oughtn't be allowed

[muriel_volestrangler]

7. It's not actually a group, so there's no mission statement

so just the normal DU rules apply, on personal attacks, relevance etc.

[catbert836]

8. Ummm hmmm

We want a vareity of faiths here, which includes having no faith. So I guess you're welcome here. I didn't say that this forums is only for the religious.

[davidinalameda]

13. no leave

nah nah nah nah

JOKING!

(actually post padding but what the heck)

:bounce:

[Selwynn]

14. Depends - can you be civil and not act like a bastard?

Then welcome! :)

[Az]

15. I would hope that was expected of everyone

Not just atheists. :D

[Selwynn]

16. My definition of acting like a bastard:

is posting this in a Religion and Theology forum:


...Any number of us don't give two shits about Jesus as a divine entity and I would suggest that you keep your PERSONAL relationship with him to yourself. We're free to call him a fraud and you a fool on the basis of OUR personal beliefs, not to mention scholarship.

Otherwise, it quite certainly IS a matter of ramming it down people's throats.

If you want a thread on faith, start one. Don't ambush people just because they live free and independent of your magic prophet. I consider that sort of "relationship" to be a behavioral disorder, akin to young children with imaginary playmates.

...You flail about in this arena because you can't reconcile your idiot Jesus who performs magic tricks raising the dead, etc. with the fact that many people on DU and elsewhere accept the rigors of adult life without the imaginary playmate.

My points have been pointed, but you haven't refuted any of them.

You've just come back to "faith." That's your construction. Examine my original response to your original post. You will find nothing in it that is hostile or "faith-based."

You encountered people here who disagree with you and you haven't been able to persuade them, except to wobble around in the bubblebath of your own private faith.

If you want to have respectful, decent, kind discussions about religion in a religion forum but are a non-believer - welcome! I love that kind of non-believer. He/she is the kind of non-believer who makes me think perhaps I am indeed leaning on a crutch and perhaps he/she is stronger than I! I've *never* been ashamed to think about that possibility. I *could* in fact be weaker than my non-believing brother - however I know what I need in my life, and I know that if faith is a crutch, then I am a man that needs a crutch, and that doesn't bother me one bit. But I love to share experiences and thoughts with such people. My best friend is a non-believer (I say "non-believer" because he doesn't really consider himself an atheist but an agnostic.)

However, If you want to come here to mock, belittle, harass, or take a combative, agressive, anger-filled, cantacorous divsive tone - get lost. You contibute nothing of value, you bring nothing informative or persuasvie. You kill joy, and crush happy, healthy dialoge. I have nothing but disgust and contempt for that.

[Az]

17. Do you presume that as an atheist

that is the tone I am going to take? Or do you allow the individual to present themself before judging them?

Much of the problems come from langauge and semantics. Consider your own post. You state:
-------------------------------
You kill joy, and crush happy, healthy dialoge. I have nothing but disgust and contempt for that.
-------------------------------
Now I understand that you did not mean to imply that I have done these things (at least I hope thats not what you were implying). But the way you said it may quite easily be understood to imply that I did come here to do these things. This would establish a combative dialog immediately.

The same thing happens from our side. Broad statements are made about factors that may not apply to the individual being addressed. But they will take it as directed at them.

The trouble is in such exchanges when someone goes hostile the instinct for most is to return the hostility in full. This will promptly send the conversation out of control. It is advisable to turn the other cheek. Attempt to regain control of the conversation in a civil manner and in this way demonstrate that it is a discussion and not a brawl. I believe this is akin to the golden rule of treating others as you would have them treat you.

[Selwynn]

18. No, I think my point was that I'm already seeing too much of that here.

But I've talked with you several times, and think you are in that "former" category, not the latter. :D

ON EDIT - I also realize I probably used the wrong words when I chose "disgust and contempt." I guess I don't truly feel those things. What I feel is a deep and incredibly intense exasperating FRUSTRATION when I run into that kind of stuff.

[wryter2000]

19. I hate that stuff

I'm an agnostic who cringes when I read things like the following:

...You flail about in this arena because you can't reconcile your idiot Jesus who performs magic tricks raising the dead, etc. with the fact that many people on DU and elsewhere accept the rigors of adult life without the imaginary playmate.

There's no excuse for that sort of rudeness.

If you want to explain science via the Bible, I have a real problem with you. If you believe there's a spiritual world outside the physical world, I may not subscribe to your views (not sure, that's why I'm an agnostic), but I'm going to respect your faith.

IMHO, we'll never save our country from the wingnuts as long as they claim to speak for the predominant religion in this country. To reclaim Christianity from them, we need the active involvement of good Christians (and people of other faiths).

[Selwynn]

20. That was a pleasure to read.

Thanks. :)

[wryter2000]

24. You're welcome. n/t

:)

[lazarus]

21. of course, if you look at the context

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=214&topic_id=4640

Of that entire thread, it's obvious this person didn't just come into the religion forum and start a thread saying that.

[Selwynn]

23. no excuse for it.

[lazarus]

28. You're right

And there's no excuse for the abusive behaviour many Christians have shown atheists on these boards. Shall I go select a few choice quotes, or can we just agree that both sides have people who should behave better?

On the other hand, we can keep broadening the old brush and see if that helps. I doubt it will, but it's up to you.

[Selwynn]

30. Don't look now, but you're making an excuse for it.

Saying "yes but other people do it too" is making an excuse for the behavior.

You're right, other people do it too and when they do, that's not something we should make ratioanlizations or excuses for. In this case, there is one example of the kind of thing that shouldn't be considered acceptable to reasonable folk. Nothing more, nothing less.

PS - yes, actually I think you should go find other examples as well, because I think you'll have a much more difficult time finding them here. But the sheer fact that religious folk are in the miniority on these boards, there are many more examples of non-belivers behaving badly than believers behaving badly. So I take up your challenge - just provide links so that I can go review the examples for myself.

Sel

[lazarus]

31. Actually, I have to admit I can't

I have those posters on ignore, and refuse to take them off ignore to read their tripe. Also, I realise now it's against the rules, as I'd be calling them out.

And I was not making an excuse. I was saying that a minority of people on both sides have atrocious manners.

You, on the other hand, seem to delight in the broad brush.

Besides which, this entire thread should have been locked down long ago because quoting someone not in the thread is against DU rules.

On edit: You actually think believers are in the minority on DU? Two responses to that.

One: I disagree, but

Two: If true, welcome to the way atheists have to live every single minute of our lives. You think being in the minority is tough on a discussion board? Try being fired because you don't go to church. Try being physically threatened. Try having your career threatened to the point that you have to lie.

Then come back and complain some about those mean atheists on DU.

[Selwynn]

32. It is not against the rules - and stop making excuses :)

To post something and leave the names out. You can link to anything you want, and I can see for myself, names or no names.


I was saying that a minority of people on both sides have atrocious manners.


I certainly agree - in fact I almost regret saying that I suspect it would be harder to find examples of "theists" behaving badly here because it is certainly not because I think they are less likely to behave badly than anyone else - there are just less of them here.

You, on the other hand, seem to delight in the broad brush.


Would you care to give me a direct quotation where you feel I have painted with a broad brush? I would like to see an example of that.

On edit: You actually think believers are in the minority on DU? Two responses to that. One: I disagree, but Two: If true, welcome to the way atheists have to live every single minute of our lives. You think being in the minority is tough on a discussion board? Try being fired because you don't go to church. Try being physically threatened. Try having your career threatened to the point that you have to lie.


I don't think its too difficult to look around and conclude that the religiously devote are a minority here. In response to point two: I wasn't complaining about that fact, in fact I almost always have next to no interest in the martyrdom whines about how "hard" it is to be in an minority. Life is hard, minority or not. People deserve to be treated fairly and with respect, minority or not. Whether or not an atheists is in a minority or not is irrelevant to me. What is relevant is that I fight to protect his civil rights and liberties as a citizen of the United States of American as equally as I would my own.

Personally, I have been fired because of my beliefs. I have been physically threatened - actually, I've been physically attacked not just threatened. I've had my career threatened, and whats more I've had to make tough career decisions, including thinking about not going into certain careers because of my beliefs and lack of beliefs.

Everyone's got a story. I feel no more compassion for you than I feel for all human beings who are wrongfully treated. But I feel no less compassion either. When human beings are treated badly - that concerns me. I don't really care much about which ways they feel in the "minority." Everyone is in the minority on something - and they can choose to feel a persecution complex about that if they want, or they can choose not to adopt a victim mentality.

Personally my commitment to do my dead-level best to defend their rights and support them when they are wronged has zero to do with what kind of "minority" persecution they think they experience. If it's wrong, then its wrong - and I'll stand with you in opposition to it. I don't really care about anything else.


Then come back and complain some about those mean atheists on DU.


Once again, persecution is not a defense, justification, rationalization or excuse for bad behavior.

[lazarus]

33. It is against the rules

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html#civility
"Do not talk negatively about an individual in a thread where they are not participating."

Since this thread has already violated that rule, I'm done with it. You can, if you wish, take this as an opportunity to think you've won or something. If it makes you feel better, go ahead.

Since you've persistently accused me of excusing bad behaviour, when I haven't, I've pretty much given up on this thread already. See ya.

[Selwynn]

34. It is not against the rules.

For example, one could say: an example of what I'm talking about can be found in x thread. Unless you don't believe I'm capable of recognizing the example for myself.


Since this thread has already violated that rule, I'm done with it. You can, if you wish, take this as an opportunity to think you've won or something. If it makes you feel better, go ahead.


The fact that you think discussions like this are about "winning" or "losing" seems sad to me. :(

But take care of yourself!
Sel

[imenja]

22. I know that poster

At first glance I thought you had copied one of his rude posts directed at me. Apparently he uses the same diatribes to harass all Christians. "Ramming down their throat" is one of his favorites. He also likes to accuse people of ambushing them when he doesn't know how to respond to a point. I ultimately put him on ignore.

AZ is definitely not like the poster you quote above. His posts are thoughtful, intelligent, and always respectful.

(Edit: it turns out that post was his used to attack me. I hadn't read it before since I had blocked him and couldn't see his threads. )

[Donald Ian Rankin]

26. Having been reading these forums for a while,

albeit not as long as many, I can state categorically that capacity to remain civil and not act like a bastard is not required for posting.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

27. You're very welcome, Az

You always argue in a rational and non-insulting manner, as do some others.

The people who lob gratuitous insults at theists have the right to express their opinions, but I don't feel so warmly toward them. :-)

[GOPBasher]

29. Yes, of course. It's not restricted to "theists";

it's a just a "theological" discussion. Atheists have as much to say as anyone else on the topic.