Church wants to erect 99 foot high cross in St Louis suburb.

[AllegroRondo]

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/stlouiscitycounty/story/AA03417AF93389CB862571320024DAB4?OpenDocument

When it comes to tony Town and Country, some residents like to say there's an understated character in the city.

So imagine the response in this enclave of million-dollar homes and manicured estates when a church proposed building an illuminated cross on its grounds adjacent to Highway 40. And not just any cross. This one would be made of glass and steel, soaring 99 feet into the air - a height equivalent to five streetlights stacked on top of each other.

Members of the West County Assembly of God say they want the cross to help with their religious mission to spread the message of Jesus. City residents say it could be a dangerous distraction - and just plain ugly.

Opponents cited city codes that would limit such a structure to 20 feet and claimed the cross would distract drivers on Highway 40. The Missouri Department of Transportation has no say in the matter because the cross would be built on private property, a department spokesman said.

It's not the first time the church has tried to get the cross built.
In March 2004, the city's planning and zoning commission recommended against the church's proposal for a 132-foot-tall cross, said Planning Director Sharon Rothmel. One year later, the church returned with another request, this time for a 110-foot-tall cross. The commission again recommended denial.
So the church cut the height to 99 feet and took its case right to the Board of Aldermen.

--------------------------------

OK, I admit I'm torn on this one.

On one hand, it is the church's property, and its not really harming anyone.
On the other hand, I wouldnt want to have a 99 foot cross blocking the view every time I looked out my window. And the city ordinance is pretty clear, no structures over 20 feet.

[400Years]

1. I can garauntee you those very same church members would be opposed

to erecting a 99 foot tall statue questioning their beliefs.

[valerief]

6. Amen (no pun intended)

[Proud_Democratt]

59. Great point!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. They should render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's

so that means the cross can only be 20 feet tall. In Effingham IL they have one of those huge crosses right by I-70, and personally I think it looks ugly.

[Warpy]

16. Nothing's uglier than that half a Jesus

somewhere in Ohio.

I agree that 20 feet of it should be plenty. Making it bigger than that is just pure vanity, and we know what the bible says about that.

Besides, it's the law.

[madeline_con]

72. "... half a Jesus ..."

:rofl:

It's in Monroe, OH. Here he is:

[charlie]

76. Caramba!

I'd forgotten about that thing.

Nobody, but nobody, can whup us Americans at doing the Big Tacky. It makes me quietly proud.

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

3. If I lived in the area and the cross went up, I'd install loudspeakers...

And blast Muslim prayers in the direction of that church 5 times/day just to piss them off...and I'm not even a Muslim.

[MadMaddie]

10. He...he....yesssssss.....I like that!!!

:applause:

[CottonBear]

14. The code enforcement office would cite you for noise pollution

if the prayers are over a certain decibel level. Just keep the prayer broadcast sound below that level and you'll be OK! :evilgrin:

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

18. If they can ignore the building height ordinance, well....

I would ignore the noise decibel ordinance.:evilgrin:

[twoforever]

35. loudspeakers

the anger you have is consuming you.

[Proud_Democratt]

56. What does that say about

self-righteousness?
"Judge not, lest ye be judged!"

[madeline_con]

73. Good one... n/t

[valerief]

4. Seems like only Xtians benefit from it. It doesn't provide jobs or

housing or medical treatment or anything else. That tax-exempt church has *some* social obligations, even if it is to respect the feelings of unXtians.

[twoforever]

36. social obligation

we donate more than 45,000 a month to local charities, missions, homeless shelters, drug rehab. what do you do for your community?

[Proud_Democratt]

48. This Cross is about ADVERTISEMENT, not social obligation!

[beam me up scottie]

50. !

:applause:

Someone had to say it.:)

[Proud_Democratt]

63. It's true......if the Cross was a symbol of hope...

then why don't they place it along some lonely stretch of highway where not much else exists?

[Proud_Democratt]

49. What does a cross give to the community ?

Everyone knows about Jesus. Churches should taxed like all businesses. If ALL churches just gave $33,000.00 to IRS, then our economy would be stronger.

Most churches are about "taking". Look at the nice buildings.
God is in the hearts of his believers!
American Christian churches are a farce.

[AllegroRondo]

And the money could be put to a much better use

such as feeding the poor, or housing the homeless.

Good works would turn more hearts to their church than a 99 foot ediface.

[twoforever]

38. and the money

money was donated by a anon donor for that specific purpose, money cannot be used for anything else. and i can promise you this person has given plenty in other ways.

[Lowell]

5. Depending in how close they are to an airport

the FAA may have a say in the decision. I know that even radio antennas cannot be over a certain height if they are placed within several miles of an airport, public or private. 99 feet is huge. I sure wouldn't want to have it near my home or neighborhood.

[CottonBear]

7. Zoning codes are the law. In some cases, variances can be obtained

but not for something that exceeds the maximum height limit by 4 times. In my county, in addition to different maximum heights for structures (different heights in different zones) there is also an airport overlay zone which limits use, height and density in the transitional and surface approach zones.

Can you imagine a forest of these 99' structures? Not a good idea.

[Contradistinction]

8. The city ordinance says no to anything over 20 feet

Well, I gotta go with the city ordinance. The same thing happened here where an auto dealership wanted to erect a huge flag pole with an insane sized American flag. They got shot down too....Nobody wants to look at stuff like that in their neighborhood.

[MadMaddie]

9. They should ask the church if they would like a cell tower...

adjacent to their property......They would say hell no.....

Here's the catch....if the city denies the church the right to put this cross up...the church will claim that Christianity is under attack..

If the city allows them to do it the residence oppossed to the cross will be pissed!!

Now if this was just a cross it might not be so bad but it's an

<snip>
an illuminated cross
<snip>

If I bought a multi-million dollar home I would say absolutely not!!

[CottonBear]

12. Illumination of signs and structures is usually also regulated

for purposes of public safety (can't shine into public right of ways or be over a certain wattage and must be amber and fully shielded in airport zones) and for purposes of not causing neighboring properties to be harmed by light shining onto said property as well as for purposes of preventing light pollution of the night sky.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

11. This reminds me of the huge peach

on I-75 when you come into Georgia. It looks like a giant pink butt.

If the law says nothing over 20 feet, so be it. They were wise to have that law on the books.

I'm a Christian and don't want a 99-foot electric cross in my neighborhood. Unless it was a cell phone tower or something!

[CottonBear]

13. I believe that water towers are exempt because they are a public utility.

Have you seen the Big Peach in Gaffney, SC? (off of I-85, I believe.) Very realistic.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

15. That might be the one I'm thinking of

It probably is I-85, not 75. Near Atlanta?

[CottonBear]

17. Nope. Nowhere near Atlanta. It's in Gaffney in upstate SC.

Gaffney is the hometown of actress Andie McDowell!

[grytpype]

19. Sweet MC 900 Foot Jesus! n/t

[AllegroRondo]

20. Not to mention that the highway this is next to

is a major east-west commute route. I can imagine the distraction of early morning / late afternoon sun off of a 99 foot steel and glass structure next to the highway.

Missouri drivers are bad enough. We dont need giant shiny objects distracting them.

[EST]

21. Would be a good base for an AAR thansmitting antenna, eh?

Would make an awful torch if some villain doused it with tar and diesel fuel. Local fire hazard.

[Coyote_Bandit]

22. What happens when a tornado or strong thunderstorm

comes rolling through? Wonder if that thing might hurt somebody when the unanchored cross bar gets all twisted up and breaks or falls....

[twoforever]

37. what if

cross is designed to fall on church in that event

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

23. Aren't those complaining the same people who claim the right

of a person to do whatever they want with their property free of government interference? The same people who argue that all property should be privately owned are now bitching because someone who owns property wants to do something they object to?

If it's no a danger to air navigation, I say let the church build their stupid cross as a reminder to those smucks in their million-dollar homes that what goes around, comes around.

[trotsky]

24. The question is, WWJD?

Would Jesus use a big chunk of money to build a giant illuminated cross, or would he give it to the poor?

Scratch that, I'm sure these parishoners would say with a straight face, Jesus would want them to build the cross.

[twoforever]

41. wwjd

jesus wants everyone to know the significance of the cross by your comments i can tell your not a christian. most of the poor choose to be that way, 30% of our church budjet goes to helping people (33,000 month. How much do you give, I thought so.

[beam me up scottie]

43. You just said it was $45k, now it's $33K?

twoforever (8 posts) Fri Apr-14-06 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #4
36. social obligation

we donate more than 45,000 a month to local charities, missions, homeless shelters, drug rehab. what do you do for your community

[beam me up scottie]

46. " most of the poor choose to be that way"

Whenever I see christian compassion like yours and George W. Bush's, it makes me proud to be an atheist.

Not to mention liberal and educated.

[Proud_Democratt]

54. WWJD...dumb phrase similar to WW2

and GWB....or people who habitually use WWW. everytime they mention a website.

[Proud_Democratt]

60. How can anyone speak for Jesus???? Being POOR is NOT

by choice!!!!!!!!! WE PAY TAXES! Are you boasting about legal "tax evasion"????

You sound like people in Probush.com.

Where's your compassion for the poor?

Did Jesus mock the poor?

[Proud_Democratt]

68. Wasn't it Jesus that said,"Blessed are the meek, for they shall

inherit the earth"?
I see nothing MEEK about an oversized, iluminated cross.
Where's the meekness in that?

[Bill McBlueState]

71. "most of the poor choose to be that way"

If that's what Christians think, I'm glad I'm not one.

(In any case, that's pretty much the antithesis of what progressives think. But welcome to the boards, anyway. :eyes:)

on edit: Aw, crap, you're already gone. :cry:

[silverweb]

75. Sure.

"...most of the poor choose to be that way."

Spoken like a true pharisee.

[beam me up scottie]

42. You were right, trotsky!

One of the parishoners did say with a straight face, Jesus wanted them to build the cross.
:rofl:

[niyad]

25. what about approach patterns to airports and things?

[AllegroRondo]

27. Its nowhere near the St Louis airport

thats on the north side, just off I-70. This church is at least 10 miles away, in the west suburbs.

[Solon]

32. True, but that thing would still be an eyesore around Town and Country...

At least the Mormon Temple off of 40 is somewhat pretty, and the St. Louis Basilica downtown is historical, and pretty inside and out.

[arwalden]

26. Those BORED-Again Christians Just Never Quit, Do They?

[twoforever]

39. those

i feel sorry for you, i will pray for you.

[beam me up scottie]

44. I feel sorry for you.

I'll send you a clue.

[Proud_Democratt]

52. Pray???? Where is the SOLID proof of the results of prayer??

Tell your self-righteous story to the afflicted?

2000 years and still praying for others to CONFORM???
Not EVERYONE wants the "sell-out" version of Christianity!!!

[Proud_Democratt]

55. Try logic....the REAL thing

[Proud_Democratt]

62. Maybe they don't WANT your prayers ..

of conformity... I don't. Condescending mannerisms....isn't that nice.

[opiate69]

77. Even though you've been tombstoned..

just in case you're still lurking to see how us evil Libruls respond to your inanity...

" Posted by twoforever


i feel sorry for you, i will pray for you."

And I will think for you.

[Proud_Democratt]

57. That cross is in Effingham, IL

[Zebedeo]

28. No structures over 20 feet means

no structures over 20 feet. As long as the city is not allowing other structures over 20 feet to be built, I would say that they shouldn't allow this one. I don't really buy the "distracting drivers" argument, but 20 feet seems to be a pretty reasonable height restriction -- as long as it is evenly applied and enforced.

I also agree that there are better ways for the church to spend money, but it is not my place to tell them how to spend it.

[twoforever]

33. member of church building cross

town and country enacted ordinance of 20 foot structures after we filed for our permit to build cross. the chairman of planning and zoning opened his mouth and put his foot in in open court and said that (that cross is convicting and in this community we are diverse and that cross just doesn't fit in). Well he sunk his town with that statement. This is not only a property rights issue it is a religious freedom issue. t and c allowed a 150 steeple on top of the mormon church. no one came out and protested that. the cross is convicting we accept that, but it is our right to display our faith. just as it is your right to disagree. i would fight for either right. you guys have alot of miss info on this forum, don't believe everything you read in the papers. this has been going on for 3 years and it just made the papers. T and C just approved the cross at 48 feet. We don't know if we will build it, the residents say they will sue the city if they allow us to build it. Also this is not in a residential area, the nearest house is a half mile away over a hill. these residents are hate mongers and i guarantee if it were a 100 foot menorah the aclu would be here fighting for it and us against T and C. this is just another example of a secular society seeking to quiet all voices of difference. soon your beliefs if not universally held, will be subject to libel. do we really want that.

[Zebedeo]

40. Thanks for your reply

You don't know me, but on this board, I am vilified as a fundamentalist Christian. It's a pretty hostile environment here, but I guarantee you that I am not the one pushing a "secular society seeking to quiet all voices of difference." I stand up for the rights of Christians on a daily basis on this board.

The new information in your post changes things somewhat. If the height restriction was specifically promulgated to prohibit a cross, and if the Mormon steeple (no doubt with the "angel" Moroni on top) is allowed to exceed the height limitation, then perhaps you are right.

[beam me up scottie]

78. Aw, too bad.

They keep tombstoning all of your friends, Zeb. :cry:

Now you'll have go back to promoting your belief that secularism is anti-christian all by yourself again.

[Zebedeo]

79. My friend?

The capitalization-challenged dude acted like I was trying to impose a secular society on him. :rofl:

[Proud_Democratt]

53. Now you're picking on Jews?

The neighborhood in the area of the church has SOME Jewish inhabitants....not that many. I know this... I live only 14 miles away!!!!!!!!

Jesus was a JEW.

A 150 ft. steeple on a Mormon church is extremely common.

This issue is about Christian aggressiveness!

[Proud_Democratt]

58. Thinking people are tired of

false hope. Religious organizations have been feeding their "scare tactics" and "community help" BS for centuries. It's a business, plain and simple.

[beam me up scottie]

61. Oh brother.

:eyes:

i guarantee if it were a 100 foot menorah the aclu would be here fighting for it and us against T and C

You guarantee it, eh?

Because christians always tell the truth and wouldn't dream of making up something like that, would they?

this is just another example of a secular society seeking to quiet all voices of difference

Secular societies practice freedom of religion, genius.

I think you have it confused with your particular brand of religion which needs to "quiet all voices of difference" in order to protect and promote monotheism.

You won't find many proponents of it here, fortunately, I only know of one other person on DU who fears separation of church and state.

soon your beliefs if not universally held, will be subject to libel. do we really want that.

Here we go again, a believer in the religion whose followers own most of the country, run every branch of the government, constantly try to violate the Constitutional separation of church and state, and make up approximately 80% of the population, is whining about discrimination.

:nopity:

My heart bleeds for you.


Really.

[charlie]

65. Welcome to the neighborhood

There aren't many groups more contentious than homeowners protecting their "property values", especially in high-toned, high-dollar neighborhoods like where your church is located. In spite of your zeal for martyrdom, this isn't a matter of embattled Christians against secularists, certainly not when many of the complainants are Christians. Try erecting a multistory statue of Thomas Paine or even the Michelin Man and see if the "secularists" give you a pass.

"Also this is not in a residential area, the nearest house is a half mile away over a hill."

Dunno about that. I see plenty of minimansions and swimming pools within a couple hundred feet of your backyard.

[Zebedeo]

69. Good one

The aerial view you linked absolutely eviscerates the claim that there are no houses within a half mile. That's what I love about message boards. A false claim can often be rebutted conclusively within minutes.

:)

[charlie]

74. Unnerving, innit?

Put your address into one of the satellite servers and you can see your car parked in the driveway. Yikes!

I can understand his frustration and anger after being thwarted for 3 years running -- as far as he can see, his church isn't asking for anything extraordinary. But like it or not, his neighbors are entitled to some measure of say in the matter. Unfortunately for him (and them), where he sees an inspiring glorification of God, they're seeing neon kitsch. So it goes.

But a surefire way to turn this into an intractable battle is to toss unwarranted charges of anti-Christianity at his community. Snarks about sectarian privelege don't help either. He's going to get his (smaller) cross and if he doesn't curb his bile, it's going to be a tainted monument for a long time.

[Zebedeo]

80. Yup

Agree with everything in your post. :)

[Inland]

29. Why not a ninety foot billboard?

If you can have a ninety foot cross, you can have a ninety foot billboard with a cross painted on it. If you can have a ninety foot billboard with a cross, you can have one with an ad for catholic charities. If you can have one with an ad for catholic charities, you can have one with an ad for orange juice.

The only way to prevent a slippery slope is to come right out and say that huge religious monuments are different and deserve special treatment. No, thanks.

[Zebedeo]

31. Actually, the ad for orange juice could be outlawed

According to the federal courts, the government is permitted to have an ordinance that is more restrictive as to commercial speech than noncommercial speech. It is not permitted to have an ordinance that is less restrictive as to commercial speech than noncommercial speech. So an ordinance that allows a cross does not necessarily have to allow the OJ ad.

But otherwise I agree with your post. :)

[CatholicEdHead]

30. Golden Calf anyone?

[twoforever]

34. the golden calf

the golden calf was worshiped the cross is not, it is a remembrance of what a society can do to someone who doesn't hold the popular belief

[beam me up scottie]

45. Just so you know, "the popular belief" in this society is christianity.

And from the tone of your posts, I'd say it was you who needs to remember what your kind does to those who don't believe.


Non-christians are sick of hearing about how christians are being persecuted in this country.


The current culture of intolerance was spawned by, and is promoted by christians, and we're supposed to shed a tear for Crosszilla?

[Proud_Democratt]

51. Cross not worshipped??????

Isn't it strange how Christians use a symbol of death to make a point?

[Proud_Democratt]

66. The KKK uses the cross as their symbolism.

It's even illuminated, sometimes.

[Proud_Democratt]

64. Good point! Protestants do accuse Catholics of Idol Worship

[Proud_Democratt]

47. 48 feet, not 99..

A 48 feet high Cross to be built....the Board of Alderman made a compromise.

[saltpoint]

67. One song goes:

O thou who dwelt on many waters
Rich in treasure, wide in fame
It shall cause thy towers to fall
And make them be a pyre of flame
O god the pride of man
Broken in the dust again.

__

If your faith is so flimsy that you need to put giant crosses in the ground...

[madeline_con]

70. 132, 110, 99...... Jesus H. Christ! They're determined! n/t