A question for any L.D.S. DUers

[tjwmason]

A little while ago I chatted with an L.D.S. missionary in my local town and he gave me a copy of the Book of Mormon. I was wondering about the origins of the Book; specifically the story about the discovery of the golden plates.

Is this generally held to be literally true, or is it (for want of a better analogy) like the creation narative in Genesis, which is thought to be allegorical by all apart from Evangelical fundamentalists?

[mattclearing]

1. I'll probably get flamed by any LDS who reply, but...

There's an interesting take on the origins of the Book of Mormon in Jon Krakauer's "Under the Banner of Heaven."

All of Krakauer's stuff is excellent, I highly recommend it.

[LDS Jock]

9. surprise, surprise

people love to read sensational reports of Mormon fundamentalist to confirm their preconceived opinions

[mattclearing]

12. I came to the book with a fairly open mind.

I have to say that I was a fan of the writer.

I didn't really have any pre-conceived notions on LDS, though obviously a lot of people have their own ideas about it.

I would love to read an LDS refutation of the stuff in Krakauer's book. His info seems pretty solid, but without further info, who knows?

I enjoyed his other books though and respect him greatly as a writer.

[LDS Jock]

15. FARMS does reviews of books.. here is their review of this one

http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=review&id=530

I have not read the review so I don't know if it is good or not, but you did ask for one. Hope it helps.

[mattclearing]

17. It is an excellent, albeit long, review. Thanks.

The reviewer gives a pretty compelling look at all sides of Krakauer, including a great deal of historical context, what he got right, what he got wrong, and a host of other things.

The review is a great read by itself. Thanks.

[Dufaeth]

18. My favorite part of the review is

The part about only one of his wives being 14 for sure, and then goes on to list his ten teenage wives.

[mattclearing]

19. Yeah, that struck me as splittng hairs.

"Beyond being simply offensive, Krakauer's comments are problematic in several ways. First, Joseph Smith did not marry a plurality of fourteen-year-olds as suggested by Krakauer. In fact, only Helen Mar Kimball can be positively identified as being fourteen.79 While Nancy Maria Winchester could have been fourteen years old, she was probably fifteen by the time of her marriage. Second, the idea that Smith married a parcel of pubescent girls is sheer fallacy. Along with the fourteen-year-old and probable fifteen-year-old who married Smith, only two sixteen-year-olds married him. While there were three seventeen-year-olds, there were no known eighteen-year-olds and only three nineteen-year-old women who married Smith. As puberty is traditionally recognized as the time period surrounding menarche, or the onset of menstruation, and, since the average age of menarche was about fourteen to fifteen years at that time, only one to two of Joseph Smith's wives could possibly have qualified as a 'pubescent girl.'"

[HereSince1628]

2. They take it as real

same as they do the divine and angelic visitations to J. Smith as a child.

[Gato Moteado]

3. south park had a hilarious episode about mormons.....

.....anyone thinking of converting to LDS should watch that episode of southpark.

[elehhhhna]

5. My friends husband was a Mormon for two days.

He has a tendency to get caught up in things like Amway, etc., and after 10 years & 3 kids she figured his interest in LDS would wane quickly. She didn't mind him going to the church with his brother--they're good recruiters--but wasn't interested in going herself.

He told her one night that that weren't really married until they re-did it in the Mormon church.

5 minutes later his packed suitcase came tumbling down the stairs. She told him that if they weren't really married, he couldn't live there in sin with her & their bastards.

No more Mormonism for him.

[LDS Jock]

8. why should potential converts have to watch it?

[ihaveaquestion]

4. Bizarre stuff, but the stories in the BOM are even weider.

I haven't read it all, just enough to confirm what I saw at their Hill Cumorah Pageant in upstate, NY a few years ago. Things like the lost tribe of Israel came to the Americas and set up house-keeping - taking over for the natives - were visited by Christ after he died, receiving his word and presumably converting to "Christianity" and then wiped themselves out completely in civil wars.

It was a nice pageant, though. Very professionally done - I recommend it.

[Mist]

6. The plates that were discovered

the magical screen or something that appeared to aid Smith in reading the plates, and then everything conveniently disappeared, and Smith dictated what he'd "read." Even nuttier than the bible. Apparently taken as absolute truth by Mormons. I just finished Jon Krakauer's "Banner under Heaven." Amazing and appalling.

[LDS Jock]

10. a magical screen?

there was no screen. No wonder you enjoyed "Bannner under Heaven" since you have no correct understand of church history and beliefs to compare it to.

[Mist]

16. Well, some optical aid that enabled Smith to read the tablets

[Az]

23. The screen was not magical, merely a screen

To keep others from seeing the tablets. Smith's methods of reading the tablets were reportedly using a set of three stones that he placed in his hat which he then placed over his face. He would then gaze at the stones while holding the document to be translated and its text would be revealed to him.

Any LDS member please advise me if this story is mistaken or misleading. I prefer to discuss such matters honestly and from a base of accuracy.

[tjwmason]

13. Good to see a reasoned open-minded approach

[LDS Jock]

7. yes, it is held to be true.. you can find more info here

official site http://www.mormon.org/

other sites, unofficial but full of info and with a defence of the faith
http://www.whyprophets.com/
http://farms.byu.edu/ this is kinda official, BYU apologetics site
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/2671/EC.html
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDS_Intro.shtml

these sites have additional links to other apologetic sites as well.

[tjwmason]

14. Thank you for that and the links

If one looks around the internet for information one can never tell quite what is worth reading and what is nonsense (magic screens).

People inside are far more authoritative about what is actually held then a few randomly chosen pages I.M.O.

[moroni]

24. Just saw this thread... I too am a Latter-Day Saint

I have been a member for just over 4 years now. I am over 50 (just a little). I am still learning too.

Another unoffical web site is www.14lds.com Brother Ron does a fine bit of work. I enjoy reading his "lessons". He may have explanations that might be eye opening for many, including long time members. His website is unofficial of course as is reflected on one of his webpages.

The Church's main website is www.lds.org The other websites (official) can be accessed from here. The main website gives us access to our just about everything the Church provides as far as scriptural information, teachings, news, ward websites and so on.

The mormon.org website is for folks who have questions about Church beliefs and want to know more. There is a frequently asked questions page as well. You can even as a question yourself....

The Book of Mormon is considered cannonized scripture for Latter-Day Saints and is held as a second witness to the ministry of Jesus Christ, the Bible (KJV) being the first witness of course.

EZEKIEL 37:16-19
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:

17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?

19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.


In Faith,
and above all, have Charity.

Moroni

[aneerkoinos]

11. Any answers from LSD DUers? n/t

[carolinayellowdog]

20. Reorganites have come around to accepting BOM's 19thc origin

but the former Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has given up that name some years back and moved more in the direction of mainstream Protestantism. Their new name is Community of Christ and here's their website:
http://www.cofchrist.org/

When I say they've "come around" I don't presume that all or even most members necessarily have abandoned belief in the literal truth of Smith's claims about the Book of Mormon. But one is *allowed* to do so, and write about the BOM without accepting it literally, without being persecuted or expelled. Not so in the Utah LDS Church, which has a record of punitive action against scholars who apply historical-critical methods.

Here's a relevant excerpt from the C of C site:

As a policy, Community of Christ does not take positions on issues of history. We do however place great confidence in sound historical methodology as it relates to our church story. We believe that historians and other researchers should be free to come to whatever conclusions they feel are appropriate after careful consideration of documents and artifacts to which they have access. We then allow the results of that inquiry to inform us about our corporate identity today, where we have been in the past, and our future direction. We benefit greatly from the significant contributions of the historical discipline.

[LDS Jock]

21. just wondering.. am I the only actually LDS to respond?

the original post asks for LDS members, but I think I am the only one

[carolinayellowdog]

22. Ex-LDS here

but it was one of those short-term teenage conversions. I really liked the JS birthplace when I visited at age 14, and many years later learned that I had ancestors living in the vicinity at the time the Smiths were there.