Ok. Lets do this WITHOUT the anonymous poll that can be wrongly

[Strong Atheist]

input to, shall we? I am an atheist (Howdy!), and I have a personal moral system! Theists and atheists and all others, do you have a moral system, or are you without one? Check in all, there is no hiding in polls here!;-)

Edited: Feel free to expand on this topic and explain about your moral system/beliefs, including where they come from, if you wish.

[Redstone]

1. Who the hell is going to say they "have no moral system?"

I can't imagine that anyone would.

Redstone

[Strong Atheist]

2. Well, the thing is, there have been some claims recently that

certain parties are SELF IDENTIFIED as having no moral code. Thought I would set the record straight, or see if that is true...;-)

[Redstone]

4. OK, I'll keep an eye on this thread to see what that means and

how it shakes out. Maybe then I'll understand.

Redstone

[Boojatta]

23. What questions should be asked to reveal information about a personal

moral code?

The first question for someone who claims to have a personal computer programming language might be: "Can you show us some programs written in that language?"

The next question might be: "Can you show us how you get a computer to actually execute those programs?"

One potential advantage of describing computer programming languages on paper rather than in stone: improvements can be made.

[Strong Atheist]

28. See post # 27 of this thread. nt.

[Boojatta]

30. There was only one question: "What questions should be asked to reveal

information about a personal moral code?"

The rest was just an attempt to be helpful and can be ignored if it's not helpful.

[Warpy]

8. Atheists are accused of it all the time

and to a point, the accusers are right. No, we don't have a list of dos and don'ts handed to us by high authority with threats of hell if we transgress.

Yes, we do have ethics, often a result of thinking things through and realizing what kind of world we'd have if everybody stole and lied and generally acted like the Bush family. It's not pretty, and we don't want any part of it.

We get accused of being untrustworthy because moralists and other believers have no concept of an inner directed set of ethics, that we don't act like the Bush family simply because of who we are, not because some sky spirit is gonna punish us if we act like them.

[Strong Atheist]

13. Disagree with "to a point the accusers are right". They are not right

AT ALL. Lets see how many atheists (not people pretending to BE atheists in an ANNONYMOUS poll) say they have no moral system here in this thread for all to see...

[bloom]

34. This is quite a bogus exercise

since nobody said that and nobody said they said that - that I know of.


I did say that some people reject moral "standards" and I gave a definition of morality - which some people rejected:

Morality, in the strictest sense of the word, deals with that which is regarded as right or wrong.... These concepts and beliefs about right and wrong are often generalized and codified by a culture or group, and thus serve to regulate the behavior of its members. Conformity to such codification may also be called morality, and the group may depend on widespread conformity to such codes for its continued existence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality

And various people said things like:

"I believe in my own morality. Anyone else's morality is none of my business."

&

"I voted for the rejecting religion and against moral standards because I feel that in order for absolute true freedom that is the only way."

----

The funny thing about all this is Strong Atheist's seeming desire to say that Atheists are a group and have come to some agreement and that we should all support each other's beliefs whether we agree with them or not - even to the point of supporting those beliefs that are at odds with our own. :silly:

[Strong Atheist]

35. Oh, you said more than that....

it is pretty clear that there are a good number of people - atheists - who are against religion and who are also against "morality" - I've read such posts.

You are also running polls, wherein any tom, dick, and whoever can claim to be an "immoral atheist", to which you have made posts that said "See, atheists describe themselves as immoral".

Well, we will just see how many of those "immoral atheists" are willing to describe that here with their usernames, as opposed to anonymous polls where people who are probably not even atheists say that they are .....;)

Edited to add: Talk about bogus....


:evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin:

[beam me up scottie]

36. SNAP!

You really should use the humane traps.

[Strong Atheist]

37. Lol!

:thumbsup:

:yourock:

Edited to add: Good night! Good hunting!

[struggle4progress]

52. No moral relativists here? Nobody who believes that moral systems ..

.. can never be more than mere approximate guides to behavior? Nobody who believes that every important existential choice confronting us will require a complex effort to sort out inconsistent hopes and desires? Nobody who believes decent people, trying their best to muddle through complicated realities, do things that we cannot properly understand without knowing the context? Nobody who believes that actions which seem morally reprehensible from a distance, or with the advantage of hindsight, might have appeared to be the only alternative at the time? Nobody who believes that personal character and habit might be more important than abstract moral systems?

[LaurenG]

62. lol

Redstone!:rofl: Are you saying that those without a morals system would lie?

[salvorhardin]

3. Hi, I'm salvorhardin. I'm an atheist and I have a moral system.

I've been working on it for ever so long now. Since I was a teenager in fact. It requires constant maintenance, a little elbow grease every now and then. And sometimes it's a bit wonky, especially when cold or low on caffeine, but it's kept me going this long and I suspect it'll keep me going for a long time to come. I like to take it out on the streets every now and then and show it off and people seem pretty pleased with it, on the whole. Oh sure, there's the neighborhood cranks who tell me that it's not a real moral system, that it's no good because I made it myself and I should get me one of them fancy store-bought moral systems but I think they're mostly jealous. After all, no one has a moral system just like me. I think I'm going to keep it.

[TechBear_Seattle]

5. Follower of "the Dance of Existence" here

My moral code is found in the Three Duties:

* Duty to the self, which is Honor
* Duty to the community, which is Love
* Duty to posterity, which is Hope.

"The purpose of life is to live: to live at peace with yourself, to live in harmony with your siblings, to live in unity with what has been and what might be."

It is usually easier to describe myself as an atheist, though :hi:

[Strong Atheist]

7. Which is quite different from "having no moral system", as some

want to claim ...

[TechBear_Seattle]

10. And quite different from "rejecting religion"

which is what those same people have claimed. That is why I was so irate at the wording of some peoples' recent poll.

[Strong Atheist]

11. Which is why I made this post. No hiding anonymously behind

"polls" here, no results that may not be valid to use in future arguments. Only real words using known screen names...

:yourock:

[beam me up scottie]

6. Hi. My name is BMUS (aka the Uppity Atheist) and I have a moral system.

A very good one, actually, grounded in the moral systems of my parents and other influential people in my life.

My moral system prevents me from eating animals because I consider them to be our fellow earthlings, not dinner.

:hi:

[Strong Atheist]

9. Howdy! So far, no immoral people of any persuasion ... nt.

[beam me up scottie]

12. That's because they are out eating christian babies

seducing virgins and having abortions for fun.

Me and Sal are on duty tonight so we're missing out on all the good stuff.

[salvorhardin]

14. Well, I've got admit

I'm enjoying a nice big bowel of children's brains sauteed with onions, peppers and mushrooms in a light sesame sauce. But I am laying off the blood for tonight.

[Strong Atheist]

15. C'mon, BMUS, I am having a serious grudge match here with....

a certain party who would like to present proof that atheists have no moral system.

So it's a battle between the anonymous polls that can be hacked, and the real answers by real screen names... I am saying: "Bring it on!" Lets see all these self-professed "immoral atheists" (and theists, too, if there are any ...).

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Strong Atheist]

20. Ah, but if a certain party tries to say that an ANONYMOUS poll,

which I will point out can be hacked (and I will state HOW it can be hacked) shows that there are lots of atheists with no moral system; well then, they should be here too. If they are not .....

[beam me up scottie]

21. Using more bad science

to neutralize bad science.

It could work.

[Strong Atheist]

22. Hey now! Thanks bunches! A poll can be responded to by

someone claiming to be an "immoral atheist" who is no such thing, and might be ..... someone with a grudge. Here, we all know the screen names. Hard to argue with that, if you want to show all the "immoral atheists/theists"....

[beam me up scottie]

25. Yep

It's been done before.

Stupid people with agendas think they're so original.

[Goblinmonger]

43. You specifically said

you would not tell what I was doing the weekend.

Last time I tell you a secret. :cry:

[beam me up scottie]

45. That will teach you to go without me.

How would you like to be left at the clubhouse with nothing to do except watch Sal eat the last bowl of brains?

Like it would have killed him to share.

[Goblinmonger]

49. So that's what it is?

"You never take me anywhere when there are virgins to be defiled." Sometimes you just smother me. Can't a guy just go out and piss in sacremental wine without taking you?

[beam me up scottie]

50. My mother warned me about you.

What? Your fingers were broken, you forgot how to dial the telephone?

[rzemanfl]

16. There is an old joke about a father dog teaching his pup the facts

of life. He tells his son, "follow me and do what I do." First they go to the butcher shop and hang around outside the door, when a customer opens the door they run in, the father dog grabs a sirloin steak and runs out the door, the pup sees that, grabs a rib eye and follows him. They run into an alley and eat the steaks. Then they come upon a bitch in heat in a park, the father mounts her, the son watches and then takes his turn when his father is through. Then they go back to the street, where the father walks up to a fire hydrant and lifts his leg, the son sees this and sprays the hydrant too. The father says, "now son, you know the facts of life, if you can't eat it or fuck it, piss on it." I have no religion but my moral standards are higher than that, the holier than thou Republican "leaders," though, seem to be down at the level of these dogs

[Strong Atheist]

17. So, it would be fair to say that you have no religion, but you do

have a moral system...

[rzemanfl]

19. Nah! I just tell forty-year old jokes instead of 2,000 year-old

Middle Eastern fairy tales.

[Der Blaue Engel]

24. I am an atheistic pagan

and I have a very clear moral system. In my view, being an atheist requires having a stronger moral system than your standard believer, because there is no expectation of punishment or reward to keep one in line.

[Boojatta]

26. How about theists who have no religious system?

For example, theoretically one could be a theist and yet have no answer to the question of whether there are many Gods or there is just one God, no answer to the question of whether or not God(s) intervene in the universe, etc.

[Strong Atheist]

27. Look, Boojatta, FOR ONCE, please, I'm beggin' ya, on bended

knees, no weird hypotheticals. Just answer the damned question. Tell ya what, you don't even need to tell us what your views on religion are, just say whether or not you have a moral system, 'kay?

[Boojatta]

29. How is one to determine whether or not one has a personal moral code?

Suppose a person is careful to never open an umbrella indoors, but otherwise does whatever he or she expects to get away with.

Is the one commandment "Thou shall not open an umbrella indoors" a moral code or a superstition?

How about if there's also a second commandment that forbids eating an apple on a Monday?

[Strong Atheist]

32. Aaaaaaarrrrrrrgggggghhhhhhh!

(strong atheist shoots HIMSELF in the face with a bazooka...)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=4713775#4713887


:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[Boojatta]

55. Is posting the following a violation of Strong Atheist's moral system?

How is one to determine whether or not one has a personal moral code?

Suppose a person is careful to never open an umbrella indoors, but otherwise does whatever he or she expects to get away with.

Is the one commandment "Thou shall not open an umbrella indoors" a moral code or a superstition?

How about if there's also a second commandment that forbids eating an apple on a Monday?

[Strong Atheist]

59. Is posting the following a violation of the Geneva conventions:

boojatta is a giant non-sequitor?

[Boojatta]

60. I'm not an expert on the Geneva conventions, but my guess is "no". e.o.m.

[Boojatta]

68. Regarding the concept non sequitur...

Educational reading

[beam me up scottie]

31. Do you have one of these

or do you want to borrow mine?

:banghead:

[Strong Atheist]

33. I borrowed yours...

thirty times...

[Strong Atheist]

40. I have decided to answer boojatta's posts the way he always

answers mine from now on...

Edited to add: See posts # 46, 47, 48, and 49 of THIS thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x43767

[NMMNG]

38. Hello all, my name is Buffy, and I have a Personal Moral System

Among other things I believe in:

Not killing other living beings except in self-defense, and avoiding harming them to the fullest extent possible
Treating others as equals regardless of race/ethnicity, gender, socieconomic status, sexuality, etc.
Providing support, assistance and/or care to those who are unable to care for themselves independently
Working to end oppression of all kinds--racial/ethnic, gender, religious, socioeconomic, governmental, etc.

[Strong Atheist]

39. Hey, Buffy,

:toast:

Funny, still no atheists/theists that say they have no moral system... how strange....:sarcasm:

[NMMNG]

41. Gee, you think maybe that's because that's a big, freaking stereotype???

:silly:

:toast:

[Evoman]

42. I am an atheist

I am Evoman and I am an atheist. I have a personal moral system. Heres a sampling of my moral system:

1)I hurt no living being, animal or human, if I can help it. If I get a moth or spider in my apartment, I grab it using a cup and take it outside. I never kill anything except maybe mosquitos and the occasional tick. And I believe those are fair game. I do eat meat, and I very often feel bad for it. Thats why I never throw away food, especially meat. The animal had to die for me to eat it, so I make sure I do that. I try never to play nor to throw away meat.

2) I never steal, nor have I ever stolen from anybody (well, maybe Halloween candy from my brothers bag as a kid, but thats about it).

3) I believe sex is natural and enjoyable. I think that repression of our natural sexuality has resulted in fucked up things like disgusting porn, oversexed TV, rape, and dangerous sex practices among kids/teens. I also think a lot of the violence in the middle east and other places where religion is out of control has to do with sex. The guys arent blowing themselves up because they love god; they're doing it cuz they want to get laid, and they gotta wait until after their dead to get some good sex. I have sex all the time and dont feel guilty. And I am not married. I think some people are born homosexuals, and I say, do whatever feels right to you. I think abstinence is a good choice if your not yet mature/comfortable to have sex. But abstinence is NOT something horny adults should do. Don't fuck a whole bunch of people you don't know; not because its wrong...I wish we could just do that, but because its dangerous.

4)I try to do nice things for people I know and strangers as much as possible, because it takes a thousand kindnesses to counteract one bad action. And there are way to many bad actions being broadcast over the news. Last week, the lady in front of me in line didn't have enough money to buy a bottle of advil she needed. She was not poor, she had just forgotten her wallet. So I bought it for her. I had no idea who she was. But I'm hoping maybe someday she does the same thing.

5)I'm a grad student and I teach. I know a lot of grad students don't take their teaching seriously, but I do. I believe we all have an obligation to teach other people what we know when they ask us too. The key word is ask.

I don't do anything because I want to get into heaven or because I'm afraid of being punished. I have no god keeping me in line. I do what I do because I like to be treated in a certain way, and I feel I should treat animals and others in the same way. I have a deep respect for all life because I think all of us, humans and non-humans alike, only have one shot at this. Even when I kill mosquitos, I sometimes feel bad. I don't even think about god when I do things. And I suspect most people on here are the same. If you all lost your faith, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't go on a killing or raping spree. Morality does not come from god, its a natural process resulting from our desire to cooperate in order to survive.

Evoman

[Strong Atheist]

44. Very well put! Thanks for sharing! nt.

[beam me up scottie]

46. Wow. I thought I was the only one who doesn't kill bugs.

People think I'm nuts, like I care.

I learned to respect all life, including insects, from my mother, another godless heathen.

[salvorhardin]

47. Nobody should kill bugs!

Do you know how much those teeny tiny cameras cost that Illuminati Entymological Intelligence Division implants in them? Gah! I wish our other Illuminist brethern would be so cost conscious.

[beam me up scottie]

48. EGGSACKALLY! Especially considering how difficult it is to fit the flies.

Compound vision is a bitch.

[NMMNG]

53. You immoral athiest!

:o

[believerinchrist]

57. As a believer in Christ, I also don't like to kill bugs.

I value life. In fact, I believe that one of the biggest problems in religion is that the focus is on death. Christianity is not about going to heaven when we die--it is about living a life that pleases God. I know--the Bible is full of death and destruction. Yes, it is very much a history, of sorts, of a number of people and their understandings of and their relationships with God which often resulted in violence. But, within its pages are also concepts that can lead a person to goodness, love, and truth.

(The Bible itself acknowledges it can be misused--II Timothy 2:15 encourages people to "rightly divid(e) the word of truth.")

As I read these posts, I am learning that many people, no matter what their belief systems are, value many of the same things as I do. Does that change my faith--no, because over the years, God has helped me in ways that have centered His love in my heart as an individual. What participating in these discussions has done is to confirm what I see in the Bible--that God is not against any human being, that He wants us all to be free from evil (the things that are hurting us as individuals), that He wants us to be ourselves, and that eventually, His love will prevail over evil.

[Orrex]

51. Let me see...

I am atheist and very confident that my lack of belief in God is logically justified. The only assertion I can make about morality is that my moral code is as consistent with my aesthetic notion of "right" and "wrong" as I am able to make it. That's not to say that some else's moral code is incorrect, or that other people's actions can't be overwhelmingly objectionable to me. All I'm saying is that I don't believe that any absolute morality exists.

If it does exist, I have never seen, nor heard, nor read about it in any verifiable way. At most, I have heard people claim with profound conviction that some act is objectively right or wrong, and even if those people believe it, I have never had reason to believe that their concept of right & wrong was in any way absolute.

[Strong Atheist]

54. Hmmm... we MAY be in close agreement here...

:wow:

[believerinchrist]

56. Yes, I have a moral system.

I desire to have my thoughts, my words, and my actions match my faith. Words are a dime a dozen--if my life does not portray the love of God, then my words are worthless. I want to be a good person--to love God with everything I have and to love my neighbors as myself. I value truth, knowledge, understanding, wisdom, kindness, grace, mercy, compassion. What other people (not involved with me personally) think, say, and do is none of my business; with those involved with me personally, I strive to deal with issues that come up in a positive manner and I ask God to work out things for everyone's good. Believe me when I say there are plenty of thorns in my bed of roses and some of those thorns have gotten under my skin and festered. It takes time and patience to work those thorns out with God's help, but I have been blessed with the end results.

[indigo32]

58. I am an atheist

and I have a moral system.
1st on the list would be the golden rule

[SidDithers]

61. Hi, I'm SidDithers, I'm an athiest, and I have a moral system...

I'm just not going to tell you what it is :evilgrin:
(but it's not too different from the ones posted above :))

Sid

[Random_Australian]

63. R_A checking in! Atheist with moral system, alright!

I, being the scientisty bastard I am, model everything I can, and adjust my behaviour to produce desired outcomes... Who am I to deny what evolution wired into my mind? I'll do my damn best to survive/ have children survive and be happy.... how to do that? Before I get swamped by angries, I'd like to point out that the chances of me,or any future child, of bieng ' the fittest' is about 1/6000000000, therefore, it is my duty to make society a place where all, especially the non-fittest like myself, can survive, all be happy and generally not be persecuted. It turns out suspiciously similar to the upthread 'I think about how it would be if we all behaved poorly, and just don't do crap I wouldn't want to see in other people'.

My two cents.
R_A.

[Behind the Aegis]

64. Bizarre mix...

I am a theist, of sorts. I take into account multiple mythologies/belief systems (often one in the same). I guess that has built a moral code in me. However, I am human, and fall short of it more often than I would care to admit, even to myself.

I try to do right by myself and others. However, considering how people's definition of "doing right" varies, I find that sometimes, while upholding my own "morals," I may be trouncing someone else's moral code.

I believe there may be an absolute truth, but it is absolutely incomprehensible to the vast majority of us.

I like the way you set this up, SA. No pretenses, no hiding, just honesty; well, should we choose to believe the poster is being honest. :evilgrin:

[Strong Atheist]

65. I set this up in response to ....

.... something else, to counteract that something else.

The point was, are there self-described people without moral systems? So far, none have checked in... unlike what was reported .... elsewhere ...

[Zebedeo]

66. I am a theist, and I have a moral system

For me, morality is defined in reference to God's will. God's will is moral, and the opposite is immoral.

This applies to the actions of theists and atheists alike. The actions and omissions of each of us, theist and atheist, are either moral or immoral depending on whether they are in accordance with God's will. An atheist social worker who devotes her life to helping disadvantaged children can be more moral than a theist criminal who preys on the helpless. Likewise, a theist social worker who devotes her life to helping disadvantaged children can be more moral than an atheist criminal who preys on the helpless. The bottom line is that it has nothing to do with whether they are theistic or atheistic. Morality is determined by the degree to which an action or omission is in accordance with God's will.

God's will can be determined from Scripture (read prayerfully and sincerely), through earnest prayer and communion with God, through indwelling by the Holy Spirit, and through letting your conscience be your guide. I believe that people have God's will written on their hearts, and that's why we know when we are doing something wrong. That little voice inside us is God.

[YouthInAsia]

67. I wont do anything that could send me to jail.

[Quantess]

69. Atheist. Yes, I have morals.

I don't need the "fear of god" to do the right thing.

The idea is that fear of punishment keeps people on the straight and narrow, isn't it? Fear of hell and fear of the law, to cover all the bases.
To turn the tables, you might want to ask a Christian: if he/she were certain there was no god, would he/she go around murdering, raping, theiving, and generally acting immorally?

I rely on things other than religion to make moral and ethical choices, such as natural cause-and-effect, scientific findings, the "do unto others" meme, and being good hearted.

[Proud_Democratt]

70. I'm an Atheist....and have morals and ethics.