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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 01:33 AM
Original message
This is the funniest damn thing I have ever heard of....
Edited on Sat Mar-25-06 01:37 AM by bloom
Apparently atheists are not allowed to criticize other atheists.

Anyone who points out that some atheists have rejected conventional standards of morality (because they say they did) MUST be something other than an atheist!!! So now I am accused of believing in GOD because I restated what someone said.

Well - I have never been so insulted in my life :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


Here's a clue for you. If people have a philosophy whereby their philosophy means that women can be degraded and humiliated and so and so forth and you are going to excuse it because of YOUR "personal freedom" morality system - I will call bullshit on your "morality".

People can and do have "Morality Systems" where their only concern is for their own self. I happen to think that such "systems" are detrimental to a peaceful society. Some people mock the idea that we should strive for a peaceful, equitable society. And I mock them right back.



:evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin:
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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 01:45 AM
Response to Original message
1. Where is this info from?
I'm goin' to bed, but I am curious....
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. I got a PM from someone telling me that I was not an atheist
no matter what I said - and that the REAL atheists are on to me. There is a group that doesn't like that I have pointed out the obvious - that some atheists reject standard morality conventions. It seems like a no-brainer to me.

And I'm NOT saying that I think it is bad that people have their own system. I would say that I don't assume that everyone's personal morality system is a positive one for other people. Some morality systems are selfish ones. We all know that. We complain about the right-winger's morality all the time. Their selfishness, their lying, their disregard for others, and so on and so forth.

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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 05:04 AM
Response to Original message
2. Il'l mock them too
Right along with you.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. thanks
It's good to see you.
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 06:46 AM
Response to Original message
3. Strange,
no atheists claiming they have no moral system in THIS thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=57658&mesg_id=57658

where there can be no "anonymous" posts due to a poll. There are only "atheists" claiming that they have no moral system in anonymous "polls", where anyone can hack the poll by claiming to be an "immoral atheist", when they are really a poster with a grudge.

How coincidentally fortuitious....:eyes:
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. If people want to notice for themselves -> the poll questions
Edited on Sat Mar-25-06 10:50 AM by bloom
asked if people rejected:

"(the community standards of) morality"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=57603&mesg_id=57603

or

"moral standards"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x4929626

-----------------------

The idea was never to suggest that the people answering the polls "have no moral system" as Strong Atheist claims.

The way I see it. There is some "(community standards of) morality" that I accept. And there are other things that I think that people in general could work on (that I would like to see more communities adopt) - that would improve the communities and the world - and that I work on. Like concern for the environment - this would included reducing materialism - not seeing wasteful consumption as "good". As an example. Of course people of any religion or no religion could have such a moral value. If anything - I think some religions have encouraged consumption and the exploitation of the earth. There are a lot of things that the "group mentality" (which translates into "(community standards of morality") of a place can affect - in addition to what each individual is doing.

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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. My, my, lookie here:
it is pretty clear that there are a good number of people - atheists - who are against religion and who are also against "morality" - I've read such posts.

Wonder who said this....:eyes:

and this:

anti-religion certainly is the basis for much of the anti-morality posts.

and this:

there are some basic ideas that one could conclude from it.

Such as you are not going to have people say "I have a religious background and I am against moral standards". Or you might - but basically - religious people are going to see themselves as supporting a moral scheme of things. (We might see that they don't - but religious people won't say that they don't).

What you do see is people who say "I reject religion and I am against moral standards". While it is just a third of those who say they reject religion - the fact is that they are out there.



........Why, none other bloom the, "atheist" :eyes:

And then, of course, there was the one were bloom said atheists were pedophiles:

And there are plenty of whacked out Christians and Jews, pagans and other people - but after reading DU for awhile - it is pretty clear that there are a good number of people - atheists - who are against religion and who are also against "morality" - I've read such posts.

It's not surprising to me that people would desire some shared sense of basic morality. For instance - that it is bad for adults to take advantage of their age and/or role to use minors sexually. Some people would clearly like more "rules" than others. And I understand people who don't want arbitrary, "Victorian" rules imposed on them. But I'm not willing to say there should no "rules" or no common agreements on what is good and what is bad behavior. If it were up to some people - adults would have sex with children with no consequences.


Oh, yes, bloom is quite the "defender" of atheists having values.:eyes:
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. This is what's funny.... (You must not be an atheist either!)
Edited on Sat Mar-25-06 12:58 PM by bloom
So I didn't want to continue making assumptions out of thin air - so I did a poll. I think the poll generally supported what I thought it would. There were also lots of interesting comments.


In the meantime (the funny part) - at the same time you are outraged at MY assumptions - YOU seem to think that because I point out my assumptions - I must believe in God because those are YOUR assumptions (that only someone who believed in God would have such assumptions - atheists apparently NEVER have assumptions :crazy: ). You seem to think that someone who is an atheist wouldn't notice or wouldn't point out something that would be considered negative toward atheists as a group. We are not a group. That's the thing. If every one is thinking their own thing - having our own morality - I am not beholden to support others morality systems when I don't agree with them.


So I happen to think the Larry Flynt philosophy of Life encourages men to be shits. And I think that men who have abandoned other systems of morality are more prone to gravitate to Larry Flynt's philosophy of Life if they do not either:

1. have a developed, strong morality system for themselves

or

2. follow the conventional morality that encourages responsible behavior more than "personal freedom".


That- of course - is not to say that all men gravitate to Larry Flynt philosophy of Life - but it's one possiblity.

-------------------

If I haven't been clear yet -


• I think there are people who trample on each other's rights of all faiths and non-faiths. (In fact I would say that everyone does to some degree).


• I think that atheists are more likely than other people to SAY that they reject standards morality.


• Rejecting standards of morality would follow from the idea that one is not beholden to a group to tell one what one's morality should be.


• There is nothing wrong with that.


• I do see something wrong with morality systems that are selfishly based.

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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Funny how the "atheists" in your polls don't show up here:
Edited on Sat Mar-25-06 12:45 PM by Strong Atheist
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x57658

Mighty funny, unless, of course, they aren't atheists at all, but people with grudges pretending to be "immoral atheists".

No atheists said they were immoral in posts where we could know who they are, and no atheist I have ever know thought they had no moral values. Only you and the anonymous "atheists" in your polls. Wow, what a bizarre coinkydink:eyes: .... NOT!
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. It's funny how you believe in imaginary people
you might want to look into that. (You could also try reading some of the posts on those polls).


And again and again and again - nobody on the polls said they were immoral. You need to work on comprehension.

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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Some of the "imaginary" people who PUBLICLY
responded to your "poll":

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=57603&mesg_id=57621

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=57603&mesg_id=57620

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=57603&mesg_id=57624

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=57603&mesg_id=57622

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=57603&mesg_id=57625

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=57603&mesg_id=57652


Hmmmm, plenty of people who complain about the "poll's" OBVIOUS bias; none who say they are immoral as you have said in posts mentioned above about 1/3 of atheists. All the ones who voted that way... hmmm lets think real hard... probably not atheists at all, probably people choosing the "immoral atheist" to skew the poll?.... Nah what a far fetched idea!:sarcasm:

Seems the only imaginary people where the poll crashers...

Now, by contrast, in my post, which had NO POSSIBILITY OF HIDING ANONYMOUSLY BEHIND A POLL(when you are not really an atheist, but someone pretending to be one to wreck the poll), there are no atheists saying that they are immoral child molesters, as you have said in several posts (printed in posts above; links available) that 1/3 of atheists are...
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I never said
Edited on Sat Mar-25-06 01:12 PM by bloom
or meant to imply - as you accuse - that 1/3 of atheists are child molesters - or immoral.

That is you trying to spin things.

Maybe that is what you heard. It is certainly not what I meant.
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Oh, links are here:
Atheist are immoral, immoral people are pedophiles (by bloom):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=57000&mesg_id=57023

Oooops, deleted due bigotry, but recorded:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=263&topic_id=16398&mesg_id=16444

Atheist are against morality (by bloom):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=57000&mesg_id=57085

Ooooops, deleted due to bigotry

but responded to by:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=57000&mesg_id=57168

Aaaaaannnnnd of course, this gem:

there are some basic ideas that one could conclude from it.

Such as you are not going to have people say "I have a religious background and I am against moral standards". Or you might - but basically - religious people are going to see themselves as supporting a moral scheme of things. (We might see that they don't - but religious people won't say that they don't).

What you do see is people who say "I reject religion and I am against moral standards". While it is just a third of those who say they reject religion - the fact is that they are out there


ie: 1/3 of atheist are immoral, found here (by bloom, not deleted due to bigotry as of yet):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=57000&mesg_id=57333

Oh yeah, you are not saying 1/3 of atheists are immoral, no not you:eyes: :sarcasm:
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. For one thing
you are making assumptions again. Like that the bolded part refers to atheists only - when AFAIC - I was just giving one example of one moral issue where people on DU disagree. I wasn't saying anyone in particular was an atheist. Or that that all of those types posts are made by atheists. You just read it that way. I don't know what they think they are. Some clearly are arguing for morality NOT to be imposed on themselves and others. But I don't know what they call themselves.

Like:

"It's just that I don't think everything I think is "creepy" ought to be a crime."


( I would link to it - but I don't think that is supposed to be allowed - calling others out and all).



I suppose there might be people of some religions - like Mormons - arguing for teenage girls to be able to get married. I don't think you would see a Mormon stand up and SAY that laws against sex with unmarried 13 year olds should be repealed.

The difference (and I don't think you are even reading anything I say anyway) is that if someone is part and parcel of a certain religious group - people have ideas about what that group thinks about stuff. And so they make assumptions about that group.

I think there have been vocal atheists - who have rejected conventional moral standards and who fight against those standards. Do you hear people of religious groups fighting against having moral standards? I don't think so. If you can find such things - why don't you post that?

But with atheists - You don't know what they are going to say. An atheist might say,

It's not surprising to me that people would desire some shared sense of basic morality. For instance - that it is bad for adults to take advantage of their age and/or role to use minors sexually. Some people would clearly like more "rules" than others. And I understand people who don't want arbitrary, "Victorian" rules imposed on them. But I'm not willing to say there should no "rules" or no common agreements on what is good and what is bad behavior. If it were up to some people - adults would have sex with children with no consequences.


And as shocking as that is to you. That is the way it is.
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izzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
4. I think some people believe morals are only in with a religion
And it always seem to be their religion. After seeing what religion has done to people over the last 4000 years I do not think morals have much to do with religion at all. Morals are just how we learn to live in society. I guess to treat any one as you would not like to be treated is just plain crazy and world wide morals. Well every society has had a man in the pack like JC who did say about the same as he said. It seems to be how people learn to get along world wide. I wish I could recall a book I read on it once but it was 100 years ago I think.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. I suppose some people do think that
But I have to say that I was surprised of being accused of believing in God when I don't - just because I don't fit someone's idea of a "good atheist".

Apparently "good atheists" support every other atheists moral system - even when it conflicts with their own. It would seem that the "morality standard" of a "good atheist" is that you have to say that "personal freedom" is the pinnacle of rational thought.

How I have seen the "personal freedom" idea taken to extreme is people posting that there should be no laws that would limit adults having sex with teenagers - including 13 or 14 year olds. The person didn't want to have any laws that would impose on someone else's "personal freedom". I don't see any concern for the 13 or 14 years olds. Just concern about "personal freedom".

DUers take issue nearly every day with the value system of the right where their morality standards have become so weak that torture is ok, white phosphorous is ok, killing civilians is ok, warrant-less searches is ok. We take issue because we know that those people are violating the standards of morality that we think have been agreed upon. I also happen to take issue with people who don't respect women as people. What I call the "Larry Flynt philosophy of life" - http://www.hustlingtheleft.com/ .
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
7. You're totally mistaken in what you're being criticized for.
You posted a poll in the lounge, got what, 20 votes, and proceeded to draw universal conclusions from that.

I don't care if you're an atheist, a Jew, a fundamentalist Christian, a Hindu, or a Buddhist. You deserve to not only be criticized but downright laughed at for such a ridiculous analysis.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
11. I think this post relates - "The human race only has two religions"
The split could be seen as more "inclusionist" and "exclusionist" (see post #45) than it is about "God" or not. (Or tribalist/universalist...)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=214&topic_id=15126


by eridani

When talking about religion, always specify which one first. The human race has had, during its entire existence, only two religions—tribalism and universalism. All of the evil associated with religion is due to the former, and all of the good associated with religion is due to the latter.

The premise of tribalism is organized male brutality incarnated as divinity, and the goal as Yahweh promised Abraham was “I will bless you abundantly and greatly multiply your descendants until they are as numerous as the stars in the sky and the grains of sand on the seashore. Your descendants shall possess the cities of their enemies.” Women are cattle, rape is a sacrament (except when the property rights of higher-ranking men are violated), xenophobia is a sacrament (the ‘other,’ however defined, is to be subordinated or killed), sex is for men (who have a right to it) and done to women, always potentially evil due to loss of control and the possibility of the wrong sperm connecting with the wrong egg. Hierarchy and domination are important—it’s necessary for everyone to know whose boots they have to lick and who they are entitled to kick in the face with impunity. Faith in irrational mythology is a loyalty oath to the tribe, and God likes your tribe better than any of the other ones and will help you take their real estate. Or, as one of its major exponents, Genghis Khan, put it, “Man's greatest good fortune is to chase and defeat his enemy, seize his total possessions, leave his married women weeping and wailing, ride his gelding, use the bodies of his women as a nightshirt and a support.”

The premise of universalism is that empathy is the basis for universal ethics that apply not only to your blood relations but to all humanity, succinctly summarized by the Golden Rule “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” And according to the Book of Jonah, that means even Assyrians, who were to be treated the same as any of the tribes of Israel, provided that they repented of bad habits like mass murder, rape and pillage. The ‘other’ is human too, and women and children are moral agents and not just possessions. The goal is that “every man shall sit in safety, underneath his own vine and fig-tree, and there shall be none to make him afraid.” No warlords, no empires, owning your own means of production but not anybody else’s, art and human knowledge as higher pursuits than conquest.

When discussing religion, remember that every single specific tradition has elements of both tribalism and universalism. The Old Testament has Yahweh the mass murderer, but also the universal deity of the Book of Jonah. The Catholics have Francis of Assisi and Torquemada, Hildegarde of Bingen and the Borgia Popes. Muslims have the Wahabis and Sufis, Osama bin Laden and Badshah Khan, etc. Judaism has Likudiks and those whose practice is Tikkun Olam, struggling for social justice to repair the world. All the famous prophets and reformers, Buddha, Christ, Mohammed, etc. were all universalists. All suffered the fate of having tribalists eventually reclaim them as tribal totems.

And cyberspace village atheist threads notwithstanding, there is no such thing as an ethically privileged epistemology either. Atheists, agnostics, pagans and members of non-theistic traditions also have the exact same tribalist/universalist split. Oppenheimer vs. Teller, Stephen Jay Gould et al. against the eugenicists, etc. Though the contrast is not as intense, Soka Gakkai Buddhism is much more nationalistic than Zen. Older pagan traditions were often into the My God Is Better Than Your God game, and emperors often demanded to be worshipped as deities, but pilgrims and seekers generally took great care to respect the local deities of others. Neopagan traditions include the Nazi Thule Society and white supremacist versions of Asatru, as well as people who go beyond dancing naked in the woods to significantly altering the way they live to protect them.



I see some people's "personal freedom" morality as being "exclusionist" when it comes to women's rights. Other people can be "exclusionist" when it comes to world resources. And I react against those systems.

I suppose some don't see me as being "inclusionist" because they don't see me as including them - if I reject their tribalism. But I see them as only being "inclusionist" when you agree with them and when women are willing to give up their expectations of equality and respect.

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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
19. Locking
Please don't start new threads to continue arguments from elsewhere, especially arguments from private correspondence.
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