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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 08:44 PM
Original message
Why do we argue about god?

Warning..this is a long rant.


If there IS a creator of this mess called Earth I would have to HATE it with my entire heart. Why?

Because I didn't ask to be born here,where my body,heart and mind would be assaulted and broken by other hurting people, sometimes the same people who put me here to begin with.
Humanity is as fucked up as I am ,just more or less fucked. There are too many games being played avoiding looking at the human condition to see what is really our condition. Too many defenses,egos,bad social progamming..and domination and manipulation,and bullshit most people never dig their way out of it in a lifetime..

I have been hurt by my own bullshit and bullshit I thought was true, bullshit from other people ,to the point I have no clue who I am, or what life is for or what the fuck I am supposed to do to figure out what to do with my time here and if it matters... to me or anything or anyone else at all..I don't even know what makes me happy really or what all this really means. I strive to have a COMFORTABLE state of mind but that does not always work and sometimes it hurts others..or they say it does.

This world, my body ,my mind,my emotions,thoughts,imagination,desires, ect..Social programming, all the games are there in me and in everyone else in different ways. We change,but the struggle never stops.. Countless inner defenses are like a battlefield we are born into made of other's egos,my ego,all this bullshit and baggage in me and inside others and all around me INTERFERES everyday with me. We are so good at getting in each others way and shutting down others actualization process because we are threatened by others freedom when we realize we are different.We all dread looking into the introspection mirror we all are for each other.


One way or another somewhere on the journey from cradle to grave something in our lives, inside us whatever it is messes all of us up inside. When I get sick enough of it all and sick of myself I think of killing myself.People say Don't! Why do they want me to be here and be miserable WITH them? Does misery crave company that badly? Are we like a bunch of drowning bugs trapped in a can of water clinging to each other to avoid sinking into an existential ego death?

What if we all died at once? It could happen.Nukes exist and we have an crazy asshole sociopath with the ability to push the button in the Whitehouse right now. Why do you think that is? It's not just red state yahoos causing this shit,if it was just them the bastard would be impeached because our own survival instincts on OUR SIDE and anyone else not trusting of BUsh to not push the button would have kicked in by now and the Dem's would have found the words and the guts and done the job already.Something is interfering with our colletive survival. Could it be unspeakable world weariness in a significant amount of the population?

What if as a planet life is unconsciously committing collective suicide by slowly destroying our means of survival,by extinction,pollution, by not solving problems,by letting the shit head "leaders" get away with slowly killing us all because we are that tired of evolving and struggling and still being ignorant of the causes of our own condition,and we are tired of BLAMING EACH OTHER and tired of blaming ourselves as if this is some sign of our superior morality. As we hypocritically beat each other down for being human and not being in perfect self control or in perfect harmony with a traumatic existence full of sociopaths that can out compete a human with empathy most of the time..
We might be ready to stop the world and get off finally.

Maybe evolution is fixing to toss this world out of the game of evolution. We understand evolution until we realize we all are forced participate in it regardless.And Eugenics can't help.Maybe we are moving to the next level.. Kurtzweil thinks so.
http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/kurzweil_singularity/kurzweil_singularity_index.html

I dunno what to think myself.It might be a technological trap to harness some people's consciousness for nefarious ends. Mark of the beast? Good things have been used by bad people before for secret bad reasons that are touted as good . That is the pattern these kinds of things get used for in human cultures ruled by sociopaths like all of our history was written about...

A successful species can DIE from being too successful. Likewise a species can die from not being successful enough. And on top of that, a species can die living in balance if a big enough meteor slams into the planet.A species can download itself and the"computer" get a glitch or some undownloaded asshole can put in a floppy and install a virus that kills consiousness or tortures it forever.Kurtzwiels optimism cannot cope with that thought for long.He just does what oil companies do rely on future human ingenuity.He rolls the dice and prays to god lady luck is nice..The Net is overrun with viruses. What makes you think it won't happen again?

If there WAS a kind loving god that does UNCONDITIONAL LOVE I doubt it exists ,and I cannot accept it created this world..because in this reality love always is conditional,and I can only escape this reality in my imagination or by altering my consciousness and doing therapy and seeking into my unconscious drives to alter maladaptive patterns I have in me that get me fucked over in my life,or I can go psychotic and psychosis is NOT a holiday...So no matter how much I strive to change my own perspective,of it,and get over my baggage,and let shit go, for some reason reality comes back and bites my ass every time. It frustrates the hell out of me.I wish I could punch god in the face. I wish it would let me out of here into a place of MY OWN DESIGN..I wish unconditional love was really true.

All my prayers and the prayers of billions upon billions of souls way more enlightened that I ..have not changed the pattern of humanity all that much.They tell a good story tho..

God has no power here if it is a god of unconditional love really..A god of unconditional love should not judge and condemn me to more torture or more existence I feel is torture for being ignorant and coping badly in trying to adapt, in pain to evolve and survive,traumatized and blind of the overall reasons for my existence or purpose,in a conflicted reality such as this one.

So I give up. I am here and there is nothing I can do about it.
I can try to live up to my own ideals and standards and I'll fall short.Guaranteed. I can bash myself and swear I'll fix-it. Sometimes I will sometimes I'll fall right back into the same old shit,just because the shit you know feels safer than the shit you don't know.Biology and habit has a way of fucking you up sometimes.The dog returns to it's vomit just Like Paul wrote. And Paul spewed alot of rank chunks of rotten spiritual fruit in the scriptures about women and gays didn't he?

I can't control,create, predict,avoid,or otherwise"get ahead" of reality.No way. Sometimes it seems to respond to my needs,to certain ritual techniques of "magick" or my focused intent or whatever,sometimes it does not work at all and it brings me more pain than I had before..And I can't tell which will happen consistently enough beforehand to call it"knowledge".I get images of future events ,dreams.. they happen or..they don't..What a fucking sadistic TEASER my brain or is it a gift of god's..sent to tease me? Either way it SUCKS and it is so unreliable it is useless..

I have studied many religions,many belief systems,immersed myself in them only to find they HARMED ME or limited me or they messed with my mind or they made me crazy,or the group dym=namics of the believers corroded my inner locus of control or went against my natural ethics.So,that said I don't know shit OK?.It's all a frickin madhouse,a hall of salesmen,smoke and mirrors that lead the heart in circles.At least that is better than facing reality sometimes.. I guess.

I don't know myself.I don't know what happiness is. I don't know the real meaning of half the shit people call THE truth(tm),"values" or happy or whatever it is they are telling me I should feel . I can't swallow what they say alleviates their own pain and doubts.. Yeah it's so true for THEM now..and it makes no sense to ME now.Oh well.

And I can't find way to crawl into their blissful heads and feel the bliss and certainty myself they say they feel..even when I want to and decide to be hell bent on my own self deception to numb awaythe pain of now. All because I can't sustain the disbelief or belief for long I am uncertain.
I live with constant uncertainty,constant doubt,and my conscience will not let me have it any other way.Even if it feels good to my ego or soothes my mind.

All I know is reality is sadistic to me ,yet sometimes not so sadistic at the SAME TIME. More often than not reality is UNLUCKY(we'd all be lotto winners and born to wealthy perfect parents,with perfect bodies and look like supermodels if luck was as common as unluckiness is)
REALITY morally is truly a DUALITY(good and evil both mixed up in shades of grey & causing strife in each other's consciousness and flesh)

You cannot say all is one god unless merge good with the evil consciousness that creates trauma,hurricanes,starvation,sociopaths,
war,rape,torture, death and disease.Frankly I don't want to give my trust to any god that tortures its own creations for being hurt by traumatic lives they were hurled into by an act of love,sex or even the horror of rape between two people that if not stopped will produces a helpless consious baby.


Any all knowing god that sends it's creation to a cosmic torture school to learn 'lessons'could have dreamed up a better way that was not so sadistic if it was truly a god of LOVE don't cha think?

I can't abide by a god that excuses such evil and people that do not see this contradiction are moral relativists and this is why they do not see the evil they do because making all ONE is more important that looking at what they SAY and what it means about god... A god worth my time needs to be so BEYOND this world and not be tainted by creating it or stand around letting it suffer.Any god/dess I would call holy is NOT a BYSTANDER an ENABLER or a PERPETRATOR of suffering.This world is FULL of suffering.

Each of our perceptions are unique but we share reality too.Reality is so I can't master my reality for my own survival's sake. Science figures one thing out about reality than it has to revise it all over again and again as new information comes in and technology to look at reality improves..Religion revises itself too just like science does except religion pretends it is THE ETERNAL TRUTH(tm) First there was unknown gods of cave people,then there was many gods,dualism than monism gods like Jesus now the hindu like sycretism of the New Age....Religion has EVOLVED..And Devolved over time like a virus.

Every thing alive will suffer and die regardless of how good or bad it was or how well or bad it treated others around it..What is it in us that prevents us all from evolving into sociopath shit-heads? A soul? Or is it one form of humanity is more parasitic and predatory,and the other is a more cooperative empathy type? Prey and Predator? Or is it something else here? Cancer consciousness and healthy consciousness? Spirit Vs Material Light VS Dark and the spectrum between that ultimately cannot reconcile itself..Which is which? Who the fuck knows? I dunno.

Where do we go after death ? I dunno. Do we go to bliss? I hope so. Do we go to torment? I hope not. Do we just no longer Exist? I dunno. Nobody knows if you are honest. We all wishful think,assume,hope, GUESS,we believe what our parents told us,or let an old ancient romantic text from any culture we resonate with that we seem to like enough to agree with it ,decide it for us and we take it on faith..What else can we do? It is sad when loved ones die.

The reality of death is such a frightening ,traumatizing and tragic thing to look at directly and personally isn't it.Yet Death is always there in our unconscious,lurking like an unseen hand, until we are close enough to death to fear it fully and accept it than it takes us out and our loved ones cry and rage at god or tell themselves it will all have a happy ending....and regardless of all that death is motivating us to avoid risks,or take risks, survive,have kids and help our own progeny to survive.And yet we are all terribly alone when we die. Just you and Death. Leaving all the familiar behind ,forever or as long as you can not remember(if you believe in reincarnation which the material proof is dubious for but the consciousness angle offers more proof).

What are our dreams for,why can we imagine better worlds in our own damn heads just by thinking it up? We can so easily do the math to end world hunger yet we do not really do it.We don't confront leaders, bosses or bullies as equals..too often we obey them like superiors. Why?

Is it just so the cognitive dissonance between what is and what is not hurts us more until we get frustrated enough at the powers over us to get all utopian on each other so alot of people die because they won't get with the program that would usher in another "golden age"? Who are we fooling?

Solutions to fix problems too often cause more problems most of the time UNFORESEEN by the creator of the solutions..And then we got to fix that and there is more problems and when we humans seek to stop our own suffering or seek to alleviate some our own vulnerabilities to each other or to nature we get hurt more later..or someone else suffers someone with heart and mind that has dreams just like me and you.

So we pretend they are a lesser being than ourselves or bullshit ourselves and say they chose it,or they don't TRY as hard as ourselves do, just to justify keeping our own fortune and our greedy holding onto our good luck and assuage our guilt for hoarding excess in a world that needs some too,in a reality that does not care if any of us live or die and no god steps in to ease this catch 22 of have and have nots, nor force us to be fair and uncorrupted with each other.We all know how to do it,we just don't care the more fortunate we are..

So I could go optimistic and try to THINK a WAY to maximize my happiness and self control hoping in turn I can control what reality does to me.Word Faith type of things..Giving "seed money" to the church ,through tithing 10% of your income... NEVER made anyone richer except the owner of the church.
Yet we keep on feeding the beast of "luck" hoping our ship will come in and god will be nice to us just once ,especially if he saw the INVESTMENT we made in his earthly agenda he'd be so IMPRESSED..and your heavenly crown will be as shiny as the pastors new Cadillac as pennies fall from heaven!..NOT.

People can use the power of our imagination for harm,almost like an addict. And we use imagination to fix problems and create problems..and when reality dims away,as imagination takes control it's like we move into our own dreams and live in the castle in the sky for a time.Sometimes it's a Eureka moment hot on the trail of invention or discovery..or it's a manic episode..

And when we see the light of our own dreams and wisdom desired for.. we can attempt to bring a bit of heaven back here through ourselves and our choices and behaviors or convincing people of the "Revelation" as if if we all just believed it would come true..We can do it with writing or art too.The world chews us up yet we keep on smiling.Someday we will know what happiness is ,'cause the old dusty scroll says it is so.And we pursue as if it is all for some great reward.Will we really get a reward? Will god quit punishing us if we all pretend he is not abusing us through forcing us to evolve with only the dimmest of foresight and insight in a world we do not understand enough to change without hurting it?

I have come to the conclusion I don't know what the fuck to do,to think or believe.Every framework has a hole,every hole found creates stress,every stress is hurts because I let myself believe a lie and every lie inside me makes me crazy until I admit I have lied.And the whole world plays make believe because reality HURTS our consciousness somehow.. I give up. I don't believe a damn thing.Is there a god? Who the fuck knows? I don't care..

What I want to know is WHY are we conscious ? Why do we feel? Why do we desire" Why do we imagine? Why is reality so oblivious to our strife and struggles.And why are we born to suffer, win or lose and die anyway and on top of all that why do we have to FEEL every bit of the stress and pain of it in ourselves and in others and go seek solace from this pain and reality time and again ..as reality will take away what little solace we imagine or'create' in our heads or lives from us.
Why is reality like this for so many,and why are others spared seeing this?

Why does reality remove our silly self comforts with those catalyzing events? Why do we stab ourselves by our un-confronted unconscious drives and bad programming we got from the parents we trusted as kids who hurt us as we blamed ourselves for it,and buried it all in our unconscious where it's invisible and kicks us in the teeth today as we struggle inside ourselves to understand what is true VS lies in our own damn motives..

Why do sociopaths exist?

And why can't we do anything to detect them accurately and stop them before they hurt people?

Why do we live in a reality that abuses the most intelligent,sensitive,creative and unique people in the population until it makes these sensitized souls become someone they never were as far as they know , didn't want to be which might mean nothing anyway.Why does reality demand we lie and seek truth at the same time even when it causes us such dissonant pain?

Why are we born so helpless in a world so capricious and sadistic and abusive ,partly because the abuse and traumas others before us went through that we had NOTHING to do with us..but we suffer through regardless?? Why be born conscious, to feel being alive ,vulnerable, helpless in a babies body in in a world of predatory adults,illness,trauma, injury and whatnot? Why does consciousness exist if it is hurt in a society,hurt in a brain, hurt with emotions and drives desires it cannot reconcile.

Why do we hurt each other because we all hurt?

And how do we get along and be safe enough around EACH OTHER to function and live beyond mere survival in a world that is not friendly to life all the time..and that kills us all? How do we SELF ACTUALIZE and find a comfortable state of mind,a right relationship with others or this reality,when there are so many things interfering with it like traumas, bad people,bad politics,manipulation,social engineering, bad luck ,others needs,baggage,catalyzing circumstances and those billions of other things some of which are hidden deep inside us and some of which are all around us foreseen or not, interfering,deceiving,confusing, fighting,distracting, us individually and socially every inch of the way from self actualization...


I want out of here,but I can't go anywhere ..because where would I go? What is there to go to? All I know for sure is what I experience and sometimes I doubt that. One trip into psychosis will force you to question your own perceptions of reality...

When I die I'll find out when I find out and I have no choice in this..I didn't choose to come here,but here I am when I go I go and I'll go wherever I go.. The feeling of no control is very unnerving. Especially over something like eternity,especially when your own baggage,other people have stood in your way of finding and realizing your own desires and potential and pursuing them. It looks different when you 10 than when are 60 and you still have not accomplished much in your life that you thought was good. This disappointment self caused or not still hurts the same, god or no god. This is why parents vicariously live through their children sometimes.

Why is there this hole inside of my heart and this urge to seek what is IN there?? Maybe because that is a side effect of being conscious of this reality while being immersed in it IS like.There may be NO end to consciousness.Or it dies when the body dies. Evidence on these things is colored by beliefs more than what appears to be from material observation alone.Our imaginations already are conflict with reality and consensus reality does not change this especially when compared to the bliss of imagination and a few memories that we hold onto like strands of gold to keep us going when things get too tough..We run to what does not exist in the realm of imagination and myth just to be able to tolerate the horrible things that happen to life on Earth that threaten to blow our minds to smithereens.

We play make believe with ourselves ,we pretend to have free will than we tell ourselves we do not when it's convienent..I dunno if we have free will or not.Sometimes it looks like we have free will and reality shows us we don't at all. Which one IS it? I dunno.

We humans fight each other,because we are suffering,confused,angry,scared and traumatized.. And before we fight we are often in pain, or threatened,and we react because we are traumatized from fighting each other..Circular it is.

Striving just to alleviate some of the PAIN of the human condition in ourselves and in those we care about. We never get to rest from the capricious demands of evolutionary adaptation.

Why do we evolve in REAL TIME in every moment..self actualize?
Why we are conscious of it but can't control it. we are not the masters of this reality,we are just part of it,interacting in it,in the thick of it all.

And so now we are destroying the planet ,because we don't know how to cope with this reality that hurts.We have tried to control nature.And that attempt in itself can be seen as a force of evolution.
And I see no way to escape demands and the games,and I cannot see the end product of all this struggle..I can only imagine one and try to make it manifest in THIS world, through my art,Some do it by inventing a tool,or a drug, anything to give us an "advantage" over the other competing forces and creatures who like us are also suffering.

I can create a solution with more unforeseen problems to wrangle a short holiday from one struggle against us,be it a bacteria or physical hardships..or whatever.And Like the inventors before me I will have to leave it for the next generations to solve the mess my wonderful invention I made.That is what we have been doing since the dawn of civilization .

Ironically now what gave some of us a rest is about to collapse on us to Kill the only Earth we know. For WHAT? So a very few of our species, the most sociopath's ambitious,deceptive and charismatic alphas of us all can rest from evolution's and survival's demands and outlive us all. The kings and"leaders" go out with "glorious legacy" bigger than life, cowards made hero's riding like kings on the backs of billions who's lives are conditioned to be denied ,not actualized,never really lived,who were snuffed out defending their own slave-hood?

And I have no answers for this.Revolution sucks.It makes more systems and kings to ride upon the backs of the masses is all it does... I observe all this and shudder like everyone else does when they look into the bloody jaws of nature and the bloody habits of mankind on an ego trip.I wish I could find a good stronger than reality itself god or mind state to numb away my traumas and blind me to what I see and numb me to the pain and struggle between self actualization and the demands of evolution and survival..

Please god/dess,put me asleep,numb my heart,and dull my mind,close my eyes. In the name of mercy make me an optimist,take away my emotional pain,dull my empathy.Give me a purpose so I don't have to find one..and lie to myself I have one..And this game works sometimes,..but those sorts of beliefs do comfort me,only a while. And circumstances do intrude or my own desire to know this loving god more fully collapses the whole belief system on me and I see reality is running me through as it was before and I am forced to wake up because I am not a good liar in my heart.And again I feel pain the primordial betrayal.And I weep into the bottomless big hole inside myself.Soon
I pick myself up when I can't cry anymore I change my mind,I express my emotions,I solve my problem,look at my situation,find a solution, and I move on,walk on the sunny side of the street until the next assault comes..

There are bigger fish to fry . Like looking at the human condition rather than argue the existence or non existence of god.Our future is in danger There are dangers we invented that never were in the days when the bible was written. I think this dilemma about god has distracted humanity from itself it's problems and its bad relationships for a long,long time. It will not be solved. So is pointless to the point of suicide to worry about it now.I really fear for us. And we do not know how to save ourselves from each others beliefs to stabilize our own societies or relationships.







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Danieljay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. Because we are conflicted about who we really are.
If we truly recognized our Divinity, we would having nothing left to argue about.
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formactv Donating Member (247 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. No one really knows anything
The next person who asks me if I believe in God I will call an asshole.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Heh..
Funny. And I agree with you up to the point,,where I must admit I dunno IF there is a god (as in beyond this reality that has NOTHING TO DO with this place,being like this )A far away observer that looks at us with empathy but also it's so unable to help it cannot help us consistiently in this condition .
I think if there is a god and it made this world and the evil in it and it was aware of what would happen to us ,if it let evil exist and it has messed up humanity playing games,and hurt us with contradictory texts prophets ,myths and false hope for respite for so long.. It is a HUUUUUGE sadistic asshole.
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Shine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Good point.
:thumbsup:
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Well if we are devine
Are slugs and tapeworms devine or just stuff that's human shaped?
I have to ask.Because I don't know what consiousness is like for another beings really. I can guess. I think suffering hurts all beings that have the capacity to feel tho.
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Danieljay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #5
18. Its all God in my opinion. If God is omnipotent and omnipresent..
there is no place that God isn't. Even a slug or tapeworm.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. Divine?
What about this reality makes us "forget" something like our own divinity? How does that happen? We all know the end result..But how can we stop forgetting?

Everyday we remember to get up on time,to go to work on time. Sheesh we are so conscientious in remembering work we will call the boss if we are too sick to come in,we NEVER forget. We remember how to drive or walk to the grocery store ,what foods we like or don't, we remember favorite childhood toys or good or bad days in school..but somehow we forget the single most important aspect about ourselves that could end the problems of the human condition,stop wars,bring peace and equality to all..and self actualization and end our suffering ..How could we FORGET this??

What could cause us to forget we are Divine and why do we forget it every generation,kids are churched by parents yet christian adults pagan adults, all religious adults routinely forget their own divinity and people get hurt. Why is that? Religious documents are everywhere telling us to be good to one another, yet gay kids are hated by their own parents,bullies still hurt geeks and go to church the next day and say we all are Divine..In Iraq devine people from the US and Iraq die,for what? In american jails people are raped for what,children are killed at home across this country why Is it because we forgot again? Try telling I forgot to pay taxes to the IRS...why do we remember tax day but forget our own divinity? It's like waking up and forgetting you have an ass. In reality we don't forget we have an ass,because I see no one running around without pants or skirts covering up that ass.. And we never forget to breathe. But we so easily forget our divinity..Could it be that divinity is a lie?And when life torments us,we forget to lie and we give ourselves permission to hurt others because in a fit of honesty we realize we are human animals.
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FSogol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
3. Because God made us that way.
:shrug:
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Ready4Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
6. How do you know you didn't ask?
Edited on Thu Mar-23-06 09:29 PM by Ready4Change
How do you know that we don't all come from some sort of timeless, immortal pool of consciousnesses. Been there for several eternities, bored out of our MINDS, which is a sad thing as minds is all we are.

Then one day God, you know him, eccentric guy, Beard, always inventing gadgets and stuff. Anyway, this God guy says he's created something brand new. A whole system, he calls a universe. Little bits of stuff floating around in a vast nothingness. And on some of that stuff, this other stuff can exist, that can move around and eat and breed and even think. But the best part is that it's INTERACTIVE. He's got a way that YOU can go visit.

But there's one catch. He doesn't want the place to become just another copy of the consciousness pool. He wants it to stay fresh for its inhabitants. So, everyone who goes there must agree to forget everything they currently know for as long as they can stay in this "universe."

I think a lot of bored immortals would leap at the chance. They'd sign up, wipe their minds, and wham! Their 40-100 years here would flash by and whap! they'd be waking up back in their pool, with something fresh to talk about. They'd laugh at how they worried about this "dying" thing, and money, and politics. They'd find the very fact they claimed to have not asked to go there hilarious. And they'd all get together to go there again as a group. Maybe arrange things so they could meet each other, share some years together, maybe have an adventure like fighting a war, or researching medicines.

You might be doing EXACTLY what you signed up for.

It's just as likely as any other excuse for what we are here for, imo.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. But..


How do you know that we don't all come from some sort of timeless, immortal pool of consciousnesses. Been there for several eternities, bored out of our MINDS, which is a sad thing as minds is all we are.

Well how come I am so BORED here?Let me see,I get up. I sit around doing shit I don't care about,I go home pount crap out on the net. Pet the cats,watch the daily show go to sleep.. I can think of a BILLION things I'd rather do that this shit everyday. Relality isn't giving me the financial oppurtunities to live the adventures I crave .Luck is not mine today.Why do you think that is?

Then one day God, you know him, eccentric guy, Beard, always inventing gadgets and stuff. Anyway, this God guy says he's created something brand new. A whole system, he calls a universe. Little bits of stuff floating around in a vast nothingness. And on some of that stuff, this other stuff can exist, that can move around and eat and breed and even think. But the best part is that it's INTERACTIVE. He's got a way that YOU can go visit.

Well what if all the interactions you get are SUCKY. What if Life just is not fufilling. What if you are tired.What if you don't want it? Losts of people kill themselves because life does not give them what they need.If consiousness is so bored why does it desperately seek escape from reality sometimes..(Psst this is often directly relkated to whether someone has been traumatized,bullied or in a "unfortunate" situation)

But there's one catch. He doesn't want the place to become just another copy of the consciousness pool. He wants it to stay fresh for its inhabitants. So, everyone who goes there must agree to forget everything they currently know for as long as they can stay in this "universe."

I did not agree to be raped as a little girl.



I think a lot of bored immortals would leap at the chance. They'd sign up, wipe their minds, and wham! Their 40-100 years here would flash by and whap! they'd be waking up back in their pool, with something fresh to talk about. They'd laugh at how they worried about this "dying" thing, and money, and politics. They'd find the very fact they claimed to have not asked to go there hilarious. And they'd all get together to go there again as a group. Maybe arrange things so they could meet each other, share some years together, maybe have an adventure like fighting a war, or researching medicines.

Well Why can't these so called consious beings wake up and quit hurting each other and driving each other to suicide. Sadism is evil.

You might be doing EXACTLY what you signed up for.

I don't think so.Might apply to YOU. I was trapped here slammed down against my will. This idea od some cosmic entertainment complex makes a BIG assumption thatEVERYONE was i9n agreement and can remembber the contract. The contract is INVALID if I cannot axcess the agreements I allegedly made.I call it NULL and Void.But funny I dobn't find myself waking up in peace. I live another boring painful day.

It's just as likely as any other excuse for what we are here for, imo.

Yes it can be an excuse,anything can be an excusae..But what type of excuse are you willing to live with the results of when people try to apply it in thier lives,or more accurately OTHER peoples lives.
Your rationale excuses torture.It blames victims of child abuse,rape or tornadoes for the pain they faced as if they chose it all.. It's all part of the big show.And that my freind is an abusive belief that can hurt people who are suffering.This idea of yours I feel comes from a fortunate life experince of yours. You are not suffering so you don't comprehend how it is for a person who has been victimized by a predatory person,because you have not it's all a game.
Problem is the show crushes some people and wounds them so they never really can live. And for them the"show" is a horror they suffer and want relief from.And they do not choose it.If a tornado hit you now and broke your leg and blinded you with a piece of broken glass and killed your mom,and flattened your house and you had NO insurance would you be thinking what a fun choice you made before you were born?
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Ready4Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #10
20. Conflict is the root of most literature.
You reject my idea of the universe. Yet you seem intent on assuming that yours is sound. (A god has forced you here to suffer horrible things?) By what evidence do you argue that your idea is right and mine wrong? Where is that writ in stone? Why do you argue for your own helplessness, rather than hope you can write a better conclusion?

Granted. Bad things have happened to you. (Don't assume you are alone in that, btw.) But consider:

Why do authors write stories where horrible things happen to the main characters? Because that is what makes stories worth reading.

All good stories are about protagonists facing difficulties. In the beggining of the story the problems often seem insurmountable. The difficulties may be external, like war or poverty or abuse. Or they might be internal, like physical, mental, or moral weakness. (Examples: Winnie the Pooh has his head stuck in a honey jar. Or Luke Skywalkers foster parents are both killed.) The problems are the backdrop. The STORY is how the protagonist deals with the problem.

But consider horror. It's not my thing, but some just like to read about horrible things. Horror movies make money, so it appeals to someone. Generally, most of the characters fail to overcome their challenges. Still, their attempt to overcome their challenge IS the story.

Why do you argue you are stuck in a horror story? There are other options.
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Shine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
7.  Wow, that's quite a rant!
I have no deep answers to give to your questions, but I can tell you have given them a lot of thought and energy.

I wish you Peace and Clarity in your heart and I'm sorry you're in pain. :hug:



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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Thanks shine
I wish people at least more of them would quit lying to themselves about reality and would stop and THINK about their own beliefs,where they got them,why they believe them, and what it really means in the face of what really is and why when applied in reality it HURTS people.

I just don't understand it because reality isn't the same for everyone Some people are fortunate and others are not.Yet we all struggle and can get hurt. What really irks me is some who are fortunate think reality is ok and because it is FOR THEM they ASSUME others who have been traumatized are in pain and can't fix it are to blame for events they had no control over. Because for a fortunate one to ADMIT we don't have control it means they got lucky and vulnerability and fear of losing that good fortune fear makes them blame the victims as if the victim chooses their own victimization. It;s all So the fortunate among us can tell themselves they chose good fortune and deserve it..The fortunate that the unfortunate wish to be like,have no requirement to feel empathy for the unfortunate and feel they don't have to as long as the fortunate are telling themselves they have power to choose fortune or basically CONTROL REALITY better than everyone else can. This is arrogant..,and when the fortunate do feel guilty or vulnerable or out of control they are quite shocked with their luck turns sour and often they end up victimized. It's denial gone pathological.

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IsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
9. I thought it was just me. I don't pretend to know the answers but
Edited on Thu Mar-23-06 09:48 PM by IsItJustMe
I'll tell you this: When I look around, It all just seems to damn incredible to have happened by chance. There is a purpose and thus there is intelligence. That is my truth.

You would to hear my prayers. They have to unique.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. If this is a miracle
Why does it suffer so for some and for others it is not suffering?

Why can't mankind RESPECT the miracle and stop the abuses of each other?Why can't people quit the mind games,power trips, killing themselves,competing,the bullying,the sadism and such? Why can't we just agree to stop obeying bad leaders and stop killing each other in wars these leaders instigate and drag the people into.Why do we keep hurting each other if we truly believe life is so rare and precious? Why do we abuse it and never seem to get it even tho history channel and the net shows gruesome pictures and stories of how people and the planet are destroyed for what? Ego,domination,what??

How many times do you ever see someone burning a 100 dollar bill?That is no miracle is it? Yet it is protected more than most young children's lives are. Why? How many Iraqi children are dead,for money..how many parents in the USA beat their own kids to death,stressed out over money or sometimes even in the name of god?

Why? We have had generations to learn to live and let live together yet WE never learn to DO it.. we talk about LOVE all day but we never LIVE it if it is a risk if it means we lose popularity or if it costs us money.....Why? Why is this miracle so painfully flawed and the divinity so self destructive?
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1620rock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. This has touched me deeply...whoever you are....
...I love you. :hug: ...and I wish you peace.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Thanks
I hope it gets people thinking about where thier perceptions come from and even more important gets them EMPATHIZING with people in different circumstances with different lives experinces and fortunes.We all hurt.
I wish you whatever it is you seek.

I don't know how to put up a hug icon,yet
so consider yourself hugged back OK?
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libra Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. Me, too . . .
I copied it and saved it to my files. You must be a poet also, no matter what your other artistic endeavors. I don't know, to answer your question. But I agree with you -- calling out for God hardly seems worth the effort.

Thank you for your post.
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IsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Maybe there are lessons to be learned. If we didn't have things to
overcome in life, how would we ever learn. I know in my own life I have overcome terrible thought processes that were ingrained in me at very young age.

I went throug living hell as child. Abuse was natural when I was growing up. Any yet, I was able to raise kids without that truama. Why?
Because I decided that I would never treat kids the way I was treated growing up. And you know, I have deep empathy for people that I never would have had if I didn't grow up in that environment. For me, as insane as it sounds, there was a purpose to it.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
28. Check out Douglas Adams' "puddle principle." n/t
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 11:20 PM
Response to Original message
17. We argue about this because the ancient scribes
couldn't quite figure out those movies that the time travelers were showing them :crazy:
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WritingIsMyReligion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. LOL!
:rofl:
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
21. I don't know why
but for some reason I like the idea that people are just like any other animal. We just think more.

And that we just evolved as we are and we aren't here for the amusement of any others beings.


Our ability to make so many conveniences has made it so we have even more time to think. As fun as it is to wonder about life - I don't know that it makes people happier to do so. (I don't know if that last sentence made sense :o ).



I think there are aspects of religious thought that make it easier to deal with stuff. But I rather like the idea that this life is it. And we either make the best of it or we don't.


I do have a problem trying to reconcile sociopaths. And maybe ideas of heaven are one way of imagining that our dreams of a peaceful world are possible in another dimension. O8)
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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
22. "I cannot see the end product of all this struggle"
I know the feeling.
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WritingIsMyReligion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. I'd argue that the end product isn't important.
It's the here, the now, the STRUGGLE that matters.

:shrug:
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
23. "Man is the only animal to have found the One True God..several of them."
Edited on Sat Mar-25-06 02:55 PM by Tierra_y_Libertad
Mark Twain
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WritingIsMyReligion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. I love Twain.
:rofl:
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WritingIsMyReligion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
24. Longest post I've ever seen on DU.
Edited on Sat Mar-25-06 03:39 PM by WritingIsMyReligion
*blinks eyes many times*

Whoo....Gotta take a break after reading THAT. :D

That said, people fight about God because they are so insecure about who THEY are. If people would just forget about the man in the sky, and learn to see that divinity is everything, everywhere--humans are powerful gods/spiritual beings, really, if you think about it--maybe we'd take proactive measures instead of sitting around praying all day.

:shrug:
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catbert836 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
29. I'm sorry
Edited on Sat Mar-25-06 06:05 PM by catbert836
I don't have any answers for you.
I agree with you 100% about this whole "God" thing.
I wish you peace and fufillment in the future. Sounds like you're one of the most deserving people of them.
If you haven't yet, read "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn. It gave me some hope for the future, in regards to what you're saying this planet.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
30. Life is savage
and full of pathos. I don't believe in love from an outside God. My love is within me. From the inside out, not the other way around.

I have been in the black hole and I have been in chains and I understand.
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