How much credence should a Christian pay to the

[WCGreen]

Old Testament?

I mean, to me, a lot of folks take the Old Testament as literal and sprinkle just enough Jesus over top of it to justify all that is vindictive and punitive about the Old Time Religion....

Me, I think Western Spirituality, and therefor, civilization, starts with Jesus and the whole outlook that the temporal world and the spiritual world are not one and of the same. That how you behave to your fellow man is far more important that how much time you spend praying and sacrificing....

Jesus is really all about living in the real world, enjoying your stay in this world, and reaching out to make the world a better place in which to live......

But that's just me.....

[The Doctor.]

1. Yeah - that's pretty much it.

Today's so-called 'Christian' are just looking for an outlet for their ignorance and insecurities.

I love telling 'Christians' outright that their whole attitude of 'being better than thou' is very un-Christian.

I also love asking where Jesus said, "Thou shall raze that city to the ground what harbors terrorists." - or anything remotely resembling that.

[Coastie for Truth]

2. Actually, they are ignoring "Volume 2"

...The Talmud, which pretty much interprets away all of the "vindictive and punitive (stuff) about the Old Time Religion"

as does "Volume 3", the works of Moses Maimonides.

You will see that the Talmud and Maimonides pretty much blow away 99 percent of the Zell Miller and Jerry Falwell (and Ariel Sharon) interpretations of the Old Testament.

[countmyvote4real]

3. Agree, but don't put all your eggs in the KJ version of the new testament.

It's open to misinterpretation. Especially all those old testament references and almost anything translated from Saul/Paul.

[WCGreen]

4. I have been reading Elaine Pagels

studies of the gnostic Gospels. I recomend them to anyone who is interested in a more scholarly approach to the development and politicalization of the "Jesus" movement......

[T_i_B]

5. In case you didn't notice

Jesus was a Jew. Therefore I belive that as Christians we should pay great attention to the Old Testament for this is the true heritage of Christianity.

A lot of people cannot reconcile the Old and New Testament's, the famous heretic Marcion being a prime example. But Christ summed up the whole of the Jewish law very well when he said that we should love God and love our neighbour as we love ourselves. And New Testament books such as the Letter to the Hebrews are packed fulll of Old Testament references.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

6. Jesus summed up Jewish law

and by his two commandments, Love the Lord Thy God, and Love Thy Neighbor as Thyself, created the essence of Christianity. The trouble with people practicing what I call materialistic Christianity (Falwell, etc, who are in it for the money and the power, not for helping individuals improve themselves)is that they look at all the details from the Bible and forget these two primary laws.

[WCGreen]

8. Oh I noticed...

But I believe that Jesus represents a whole new approach to spatiality.

The Old Test is all about the personification of the deity whereas Jesus, being the actual personification of the deity, switches the whole think back to a less physical approach.

The day Jesus was apprehended, weren't the Jews gathering for the Passover Celebration? And weren't they about to sacrifice, on a very literal basis, thousands of animals? Didn't Jesus tell his followers that he represented the new covenant, the one that takes the sacrifice to a representative level instead of the figurative level?

Also, isn't the Old T all about preserving the Hebrew culture? Don't they make a point of setting themselves apart from the rest of the people in the region? Not a bad thing as they were consolidating their culture. But didn't Jesus make a point about spreading the good news? Isn’t that
totally contrarry to what the Old T was all about?

[T_i_B]

11. "Physical" is the wrong term

The term I have usually come across when brushing up on Theology is Legalism. Judaism is a religion of laws, and whilst these laws are intended for the same purpose as the Golden rule of Jesus Christ. This Golden rule is something that cannot really be translated into law.

It is impossible to force people to love each other, and as a result Christianity cannot really succeed as a legalist faith. Obedience to God comes from the heart, not from reluctantly obeying the commands of the government. Unfortunately though, it is very easy to pass laws that persuade people to hate. It is very easy for authority to stoke up hatred but very difficult for authority to incite love.

And regarding sacrifice, in Christianity Jesus himself is the sacrifice. Jesus is the "Lamb of God".

[Lydia Leftcoast]

7. The Hebrew Scriptures contain much that is edifying for a Christian

along with much that is the mythology or the rule book of a specific people at a specific time in history. Leviticus is a perfect example: it's fascinating in an anthropological way, but it's obviously the rule book of a culture that is far removed from my own in time and space. Sacrifice sheep? I don't even see sheep from one year to the next.

On the other hand, if you look at the prophets, the historical books, and to a certain extent, the Psalms, you see timeless discussions of what it means to be human and how we should relate to one another. When the kings of Israel become mad with power and lose their moral way, when the prophets condemn those who oppress the poor, when the psalmist speaks of despair--those are things that a 21st-century person can easily relate to.

I'd like to remind all the Old Testament bashers of the Jewish tradition of social activism. Where do you think it comes from?

[Az]

9. There are denominations that attempt to distance themself from it

There are even versions of the bible printed without the OT being present. Unfortunately for those that wish to distance themself from the OT they are shackled to it by the concept of original sin being the impetus for Jesus coming to us to provide salvation from.

There are social forces that drive this wish to distance from the OT. There are some rather gorey and unmerciful acts committed by God in the OT. There are also some apparent mistakes that give grist to the skeptics. It makes it very difficult to maintain the notion of literal perfection.

There are a great range of ways to believe in Jesus. Those that are not tied to literal interpretation are not troubled by the OT as much the more literal minded. And amongst those there are those that distance themself from it and those that cling to it and instead decry attempts to pick it apart. Some have raised this resistance to a high art form.

[catbert836]

10. I like the Gospels and NT better

The Old Testament, with all due respect, puts too much emphasis on the wrath of a jealous God. Angry God, and all that crap. But the Gospels really establish God as a loving figure.

[lazarus]

12. A loving figure

who will condemn people to hell, a concept that really came into its own in the New Testament.

Jesus talked a LOT more about hell than about heaven.

[T_i_B]

13. I take it you don't read the parables then?

Most of them start off with the line "The Kingdom of Heaven is like this".

[lazarus]

15. Oh, I've read the parables

Let's see:

Matthew 18:34 where Hell is a place of torture.
Matthew 22:13 where one is bound hand and foot and cast into darkness
Matthew 24:51 where one is cut in pieces
Luke 12:47 where one is whipped severely


Matthew 22 does have a parable start like that, btw. It says heaven is like one thing, then goes on about how God (the "certain king") reacts when his wishes aren't followed. Lots of slaying, etc. You know, loving kindness stuff.

22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
22:3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
22:4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
22:5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
22:6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Here's something else interesting, from Revelations:

14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Now, my question is, how much of a loving, kind deity is Jesus if he can spend eternity watching sinners being tormented? Me, I think that's a sick individual.

[GOPBasher]

14. Yeah, that's kind of what I believe, too. nt