Jesus never died!

[varkam]

Well okay, that's a bit of a lie. He did, but he just died peacefully at a ripe old age - not crucified by the Romans. Or at least, that's according to something I heard today, and I was hoping someone here might be able to fill me in.

Apparently, some older sects (and some conspiracy theorists) believed that Jesus never died on the cross. Instead, his friends took him down and went to get some medical attention for him. When they returned, they found that he was better. Jesus said bye to all his friends and hit the road. I'd say that if the Romans wanted me dead (and they were very good at killing people) I'd get the hell out of Dodge, too. Apparently he went and married Mary M and shut up about the whole religion thing.

I don't know how accurate this is, and I'm not postulating it as an argument that Jesus was never resurrected (as that story is perfectly plausible, too ;)), but who thinks this? Where can I read more (and don't tell me the Da Vinci Code - I'm not reading Dan Brown due to an allergic reaction)? And to all you theists out there, why is it wrong?

[benburch]

1. I'd more likely vote that he never lived.

There is zero untampered historical proof of Jesus ever having existed.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

4. I second this

What's with that 100-200 year span after he supposedly lived where they never mention him? Makes me think that perhaps he is another legend, just like the Greek Gods, Roman Gods, and other mythological people...

[benburch]

7. The whole story is a rehash of Middle Eastern mythologies.

Not even a particularly inventive one.

[sutz12]

12. From a historical standpoint....

I believe that there were several, maybe quite a few, preachers in that era that stirred up the Jews in Palestine. The Romans were quite miffed. They didn't care much about their subjects' religions, but they damn sure cared about people running around saying there would be a new Jewish king.

[ladjf]

35. Or, his persona was actually a composite of more the one

person who might have preached in the area.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

37. yep. a compilation of local stories. nt.

[DanCa]

6. Well in philosophy class I had to prove that my partner was alive .

I failed that assignment :(

[Warpy]

17. I proved that the universe, and by extension the class,

did not actually exist. I got out of the rest of that survey course.

Symbolic logic was fun, though. I stuck around for that one.

[Evoman]

27. Ha..thats the problem with proving things

Its almost impossible to prove anything in the universe. Collecting evidence is one thing...i.e. could collect evidence that my partner was alive...a recent shit, her voice on a recorder, etc. I could even physically bring her to the person I was attempting to prove she is alive. But what would stop them from saying...oh, shes not alive, its a biological robot. Or this is a dream. Etc. Thats why sometimes debates can be so frustrating.

If someone had evidence that Jesus existed, you could say..oh no, thats only evidence that a bearded man lived back then, etc.

If someone tried to prove jesus didn't exist, its even harder. How can you collect negative evidence? You can try saying...oh, theres no writing that proves jesus is real, there plenty of myths like jesus, a man that important should have made more of an impact.

Lol..with that in mind, I'm going to ask something else....I have an Idea that Jesus liked to fart on people while they were sleeping....prove me wrong. After all, farting on somebody is not a sin, right? Its about the same thing as trying to prove that he didn't die. Or that he lived. Or that he married Mary Magdalene.

[DanCa]

36. Maybe Jesus faked his own death?

Married Mary Magdalene, had a few kids, opened a bar in Gahilee (sp), fished at night and reserved the preaching for the weekends. Who knows I wasn't there? But I think I liked my version of events much better than Mel Gibsons.

[hunter]

40. Ask your partner to punch the person asking the question in the face.

Then make the person who assigned this problem "prove" they were punched in the face by that person.

Then tell them, no, they weren't punched in the face by a person, instead they walked into a door.

When they insist no, they didn't walk into a door, ask them to prove it.

The problem with rational arguments is that only rational people accept rational arguments.

Whenever people are not rational you have to try something else, preferably something that's not so violent as punching people in the face.

[PublicWrath]

9. Ditto.

I subscribe to the mythicist view. The NT is just a pastiche of religious themes that were popular at the time and long before.

[Teaser]

11. I doubt he's a complete fabrication.

If only for the reason that Christ was *caught*, *humiliated*, and *executed* in the passions. If I were trying to concoct a successful religion in a countercultural semi-revolutionary, I would avoid using those motifs in the story.

Also, there is a pretty clear tradition of a "sayings gospel" uttered by a teacher with a lot in common with the historical Christ. Whether the so-called saying Gospels originated with Christ, or Christ was an accretion around the sayings of another teacher, I don't know (and I don't know if there is a difference).

I know what I believe, but saying so would be telling.

[PublicWrath]

13. I think these elements are just a reflection of motifs present in the

Hebrew scriptures. Jesus is a just a fictional standin for the sacrificial lamb with the pagan birth and resurrection as bookends. IMHO the NT is the product of Greek speculations on Hebrew sacred history, just a contrivance. I think there were lots of collections of wise sayings floating around.

[Teaser]

15. possible

but I''m skeptical. Still, this is what makes biblical scholarship interesting.

Personally, I'm more interested in deconstructing the old testament. I think
Moses and the OT patriarchs are on more shaky existential ground than Christ.

[PublicWrath]

16. Endlessly fascinating, I agree. n/t

[Zhade]

31. But then, the passion plays were created to increase hatred of Jews.

Anyone willing to do that would certainly be capable of outright lies.

[FloridaPat]

21. What about the history book written by Josephus? That should

be untampered.

[benburch]

24. Sadly, no. That reference was added by a later copyist.

http://skeptically.org/chxbible/id12.html

[Zhade]

32. Incorrect. Biblical scholars have found it a forgery.

Lots of people make that mistake, though.

[FloridaPat]

34. Which one was the forgery - original or the extra added later.

[Zhade]

43. You'll have to clarify your question, I'm uncertain what you're asking.

IIRC, the passage mentioning Jesus has been found by biblical scholars to have been a forgery later added to the original work - a subset of the overall piece, as it were.

I think there's a link in this thread (?) that details the whole thing.

[Zhade]

30. "Untampered" covers the bullshit Josephus forgery, so that's that.

Nicely played! :)

[DanCa]

2. Jesus is like Elvis

He didn't die he just went home:D

[Teaser]

3. Well, it's a heresy, but I'm not sure which one

I don't think it was much current in the years post Christ's death.

It may be a variety of the Gnostic heresy, some adherents of which thought that Christ never really died on the cross because he never really had a body (because the Gnostics, or some of them at least, believed the material world an illusion...therefore Christs resurrection simply represented Christ renouncing the whole illusion of Death). But the Gnostic Christian mythos is varied, and I think this was not even the most common interpretation of Christ's death.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

5. Read "The Last Temptation of Christ" or see the movie.

Fundies got their panties in a bunch over that one years ago because it raised the same suggestion -- that J.C. married Mary Magdalene and went on to have a nice, normal life.

[saltpoint]

8. Ocelot is offering magnificent advice. THE LAST TEMPTATION OF

CHRIST is a terrific read (and not a bad film either).

A rich study of a provocative figure.

[WePurrsevere]

10. The story you outlined sounds a lot like "The Last Temptation of Christ"

if my memory serves me correctly (which I give no guarantees on at this hour when I'm "fading". ;) )

If you want what some non-trad "Christians" consider to be older and more correct versions of the stories of Jesus you might try Googling "Gnostic". :)

[bee]

14. I think it was nightline that did a show on this last sunday.

& a book coming out: "The Jesus Papers". Should be an interesting read. Written by the guy thats suing the Da Vinci code guy. Im too lazy to look it up right now. ;)

[charlie]

19. Baigent

True to form, his claims are steeped in mystery, intrigue, and a whole lot of conjecture (like clues hidden in paintings). Basically, he says he has new evidence from meetings with a dealer in underground antiquities. The guy bought a house in Jerusalem, excavated the foundation, and found two papayri manuscripts that the Vatican offered big money to destroy. They're written by Jesus himself, defenses to a Roman charge that he had claimed to be God, to which Jesus says, no, no, I'm not God, I'm filled with God's spirit.

Baigent won't name the dealer or his location.
He saw the manuscripts alone, there are no other corroborations of their existence.
He can't read Aramaic.

I'd say Baigent knows how to make a buck.

[bee]

42. Thats exactly what I thought when I saw the interview.

I was really paying attention.. then it was 'oh... hes got a new book out'. I see. Maybe they mentioned that in the interview - but I wasnt paying attention. Knowing all that, it sure seems like its probably a load of BS. Without providing proof - I just cant see myself taking those types of claims seriously. Thats for saving me the money. :)

[truthseeker1]

25. Michael Baigent - Holy Blood, Holy Grail

Baigent is the one who wrote Holy Blood, Holy Grail - he's suing Dan Brown.

[durrrty libby]

18. I think it was a week or so ago, there was an interview on

.....maybe Dateline or 2020, about this.

I was only half paying attention, ( I was watching a Spring Training Game) so I can’t tell you much. The author did say there were manuscripts held by someone, saying that Jesus did not die on the cross, but survived the ordeal. Supposedly the collector made a deal with the Vatican to keep it secret.

Sorry, I can’t tell you more. Maybe a search would help

Edit add: Yes, bee has the correct name of the book. She was paying attention

[chefgirl]

20. A suggestion

If you dont want to read Dan Brown, and I can't say I blame you, theres a book called 'Rex Deus' by Marilyn Hopkins, Graham Simmans and Tim Wallace-Murphy, that I enjoyed.

:Front, Inside Cover:
"The Rex Deus story is the first full examination of the shadowy dynasty whose members have repeatedly conspired together to alter the course of history, and the key role it played in the succession of the House of David to the throne of Jerusalem after the first Crusade. It reveals the real influence of this tradition on the development of European culture and the American constitution and shows how the true teachings of Jeus Christ have been kept in trust for our benefit in the troubled times that mark the beginning of the third millennium."

Of course, it sounds, and almost surely is, just as hokey as Dan Brown or the two guys who wrote 'Holy Blood,Holy Grail' but I still enjoyed reading it.

-chef-

[Jim Sagle]

22. Just like Joe Hill!

[truthseeker1]

23. Jesus Lived in India - just ordered this book yesterday

There are several different theories. I just recently stumbled on the one about Jesus living in India during the "missing years" (from about age 12-29) becoming immersed in Hinduism and then Buddhism, and returning to Israel, being crucified, surviving the crucifixion and going back to India (Kashmir) where he supposedly lived to an old age and died there. Some people (researchers, authors) say his tomb is there - near Srinagar. Then there are those that say Jesus never lived, that he was just a myth.

The following are in my lineup of books to read on this subject:
The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Told
Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled
The Unknown Life of Jesus : The Original Text of Nicolas Notovich's 1887 Discovery
Jesus : A Revolutionary Biography
Jesus In India: An Account Of Jesus' Escape From Death On The Cross And His Journey To India
The Autobiography : of Jesus of Nazareth and the Missing Years

[charlie]

26. There's a Grave of Jesus in Japan, too

:)

Fascinating little oddity:

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~skyaxe/tomb.htm
http://www.thiaoouba.com/tomb.htm

[AnnieBW]

28. Holy Blood, Holy Grail

The non-fiction book that Dan Brown (the hack) fictionalized to make Da Vinci Code. Don't hold that against the book - it's very good. If you want to read a better treatment, pick up "The Moon Under Her Feet" by Clysta Kinstler off of Amazon.com.

[Evoman]

29. Jesus the Idea

I think Jesus is more of an idea than a real person. I'm an atheist, I have no belief in Jesus or God. But trying to prove this or that about Jesus is more or less pointless. Don't get me wrong, its fun hypothesizing, but ultimately futile.

I think that Jesus has surpassed his status as a real person. Unfortunately, we will never know the real Jesus..if he did exist, he would have had an interesting biography. The idea of Jesus (well, certain part about the idea) is neat...as is the wisdom of Buddha, even Mohammed. The problem, in my estimation, is when people both take things literally, instead of accepting the story. In the same way that Aesops fables taught us something as kids, the story of Jesus could be used as a teaching tool.

It when you start really believing that there was a fox who was trying to eat grapes that problems arise.

[okasha]

33. A couple suggestions

1. Baigent--run away screaming. Holy Blood, Holy Grail is mildly entertaining, but it's about as informative as your average edition of Midnight Globe.

2. Hugh J. Schonfield--a Jewish professor of Bible and New Testament studies, caused a major, major upheaval forty years ago with The Passover Plot, which postulates that Jesus meant to survive his crucifixion. His injuries proved worse than expected, though, and he succumbed. Schonfield also raises the possibility that Jesus may have been married to Mary Magdalene, based not on Da Vinci's paintings but upon her behavior as described in the gospels. His other books are worth a read, too, including his translation of the NT.

Otherwise, there are some interesting early traditions that it was actually Thomas "the Twin" who was crucified, and others that substitute Judas Iscariot.

[NAO]

38. Jesus never lived. He is a legendary being, like Osiris, Zeus, Hercules

Attis, Adonis, Dionysus, Mithras, Krishna, Orpheus, etc.

How the Myth Came to Be Believed As History
http://www.jesuspuzzle.com

DVD - The God Who Wasn't There
http://thegodmovie.com/

[Proud_Democratt]

45. My hat's off to you!!!

Very simple, but wise observation! The New Testament books were written well AFTER his death.....perhaps an homage?

[FM Arouet666]

39. Your right, I know for a fact he didn't die

Today, J.C. is driving a cab in N.Y.C. He took me from midtown to the upper east side just last night, he parted the yellow sea of unholy taxi cabs, delivering me to the purity of a fine Manhattan eating establishment. Fucker charged me 24$ for the holy experience.

On the slide, I have it on very confidential authority that Mrs. J.C. would like some resurrection. It have been months since J.C. offered her the holy baloney. Any viagra dealers out there? I got a real good deal on some after life realestate.

evilgrin:

[Odin2005]

41. I think Jesus was a kind of Jewish Buddha, with no claims of divinity.

Both promoted a kind of "otherworldy" philosophy. He was probably the leader of a "proto-Gnostic" sect in NE Israel, influenced by the Essenes. Hellenized Jews (like St. Paul) and Greeks who converted to the new sect then got Jesus mixed up with other "eastern cults" going around the Roman Empire, leading to the virgin birth, ressurection, and other stories.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

44. I admire people who are so certain

of events that took place thousands of years ago. I personally just don't claim to have any inside knowledge. I've read everything I can understand, tried a few I couldn't. I still don't know for sure. I choose to believe the Gospels because I find the story very compelling and it speaks to me on an intimate level. I know that the story MUST have been modified by years and years of human intervention. But when I ask for answers about it I receive them. Maybe I'm hearing voices or something but it "works" for me.

Now if I get to heaven and find out it was fictional, I'll be okay with it because as a framework for living it is very inclusive and has served me well.

Sometimes after reading so many views of these beliefs I begin to wonder whether we create our own spiritual reality. If you don't believe, you don't have any. If you do, you do. Maybe it has something to do with reincarnation or past lives and some of us are farther along the continuum than others. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not insinuating that atheists are all new souls. Who knows? Maybe they have moved past beliefs? Maybe the most devout among us are the new souls who "remember" more or need that connection.

But it is noteworthy to me that we keep hashing the same stuff over and over again, and we've been doing it, I assume, since we jumped out of the trees. Some things never change.

[Proud_Democratt]

46. Neither did Elvis according to many rednecks.

Both Elvis and Jesus have more support in the South than anywhere else. Come to think of it......most UFO sightings are there too.