Need help/interpretation - Bible prophesy, war, my family members

[phylny]

Some fundamentalist Christian members of my family are behind GWB and the war in Iraq because they feel it's part of God's plan. They fully support our invasion, occupation, and bombing, and this support for the GOP goes far beyond the abortion issue, and well into Biblical reasons why we are, as a country, on the right path.

I'm posting here because I'm a Christian who, admittedly, isn't very well versed in Biblical interpretation. I really don't want to open the familial can of worms with these family members by asking them to explain their position, and I don't have the know-how to debate verse for verse. I know Biblical basics, and I fail to find support for what's happening in this world today when I read about Jesus in the New Testament.

I *think* their support for what's happening today has its roots in this verse:

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'" (Matthew 10:34-36)

Can someone out there who's a lot smarter than me help me gain some knowledge about this issue of supporting Shrub because it's part of God's "plan"? Is theirs a strict interpretation of scripture? Am I crazy to think that all this killing, corruption, and horror isn't totally opposed to what Jesus wanted for humankind?

If I haven't been clear enough, please feel free to tell me and I'll try to clarify.

[Warpy]

1. The only thing you need to do is point out Stupid is unchristian

Check out what Jesus said to do for the poor. Check out Stupid's budgets.

Check out what Jesus said about peacemakers. When did Stupid ever value peace?

Check out what Jesus said about "the least of these," meaning the sick, the disabled, the poor, the old, and every other "unproductive" member of society. Check out Stupid's attitude and his budgets.

You don't need to address the twisting of biblical prophesy the Calvinists have done. You just need to identify who they are. Why they twist the bible the way they do is because of who and what they are.

Your relatives have read all those words in red in their bibles. All you need to do is rub their noses in them a little and point out how Stupid has betrayed them all.

Then ask them about the Antichrist and how he gains followers.

[jwirr]

11. A good interpretation of the AntiChrist is "One who claims to

stand in for Chirst." No offense Catholics but this definition fits *ss better than the Pope anyhow.

[Turbineguy]

2. As usual

they take a small part of a much larger text and put it out of context to justify their position. This has been the case throughout history.

Read the entire chapter. Then read the entire Matthew gospel.

And now if you'll excuse me, it's God's Plan that I take my Wife out for breakfast at a restaurant she does not like.

[saltpoint]

3. The ministry of Jesus is very strong on redemption and inclusion

and especially, redemption and inclusion for the downtrodden and poor.

There's not much in it that condones state violence. The passage in Matthew could be a later interpolation; we have no way of knowing what Jesus' actual words were. Your family is interpreting.

Many Christians, even a few fundamentalists, have begun to question or outright oppose Bush's Iraq war. I see several bumperstickers that read: WHO WOULD JESUS BOMB? -- on cars here and there.

It's hard to square bombing with the ministry of Jesus. Your family should reconsider.

[tocqueville]

4. people that believe in Bible prophecies are in a pre 9/11 mindset

between 250-2000 years before

but I imagine that it is pointless to remind that the vast majority of humanity (at least in the west) has evolved from superstition to rationalism...

which doesn't exclude a search for spirituality

but to believe that there are prophecies in the Bible isn't basically different from believing in fairies

[C_U_L8R]

5. God appeared in a breakfast sandwich

and said to tell your relatives that the rapture has already come and gone.
Sorry. They're left behind.... but the bacon egg and cheese is heavenly.

[eShirl]

6. they think the book of Revelations prophesizes armageddon & 2nd coming

fundies look to Revelations like other people look to the writings of Nostradamus

[patrice]

7. Much of what is ascribed to the words of Jesus wasn't written

until decades afer he died.

Remind them of the First Commandment and the definition of blasphemy. BTW, you might ask them why the First Commandment IS first. My answer is that we fall into idolatry very automatically. They idolize their own interpretation of the word "sword" which original word from the original text may not even have been specifically a sword. You could look up some works on Biblical translation and maybe get the original Aramaic or Greek words for this passage. Translation is not a 1:1 thing, not this = that straight across.

They assume they know the mind of "God" so well that they define what the division between people is supposed to be (e.g. pro-Bush vs anti-Bush or pro- vs anti- anything) and they assume that it includes violence, when, in fact, Jesus originally was telling us that to be a Christian is VERY different from what you were before you started following him.

And on edit: Since Jesus didn't come to bring peace, why are they so peaceful in their "Christianity", so satisfied that they are right?

Christianity is not a "done deal", no quid pro quo, yet they act as though it is in regard to Bush's War.

[xchrom]

8. it's a metaphor. for the difficulties in following christ.

especially for non-gentiles.

you can imagine the difficulties for a family were one member believes the messiah has come and the others do not.

hence -- the sword.

however the BEDROCK of the christian faith -- is one of peace and social justice i.e. the sermon on the mount and christ's words when he says that loving your neighbor is one of the triad of primary laws.

[jwirr]

12. Exactly, Jesus was warning his followers that it would not be

easy to follow in his footsteps. That even their own families would oppose them.

[phylny]

9. Thanks to (almost) all of you for your thoughtful, informative

responses!

[jwirr]

10. There are several books about this but the only one I can find

in my personal library is "The Incredible Cover-Up" by David MacPherson. It discussed the changes in interpretation for the last 50 years that have allowed these literalists to reinterpret prophecy in their own image. The other one also talked about this idea.

In the past theologians interpreted Biblical passages in the New Testament by using the Old Testament as a guide. These rwers add a level to interpretation: human intuition or inspiration (visions, speaking in tongues, dreams, etc.) and unfortunately they have allowed the human inspiration to override the written word.

Thus if an old women in Scotland had a vision while sick about the rapture then that superseded the message in the Bible. (My question is simple: What was this old women taking as medicine for her illness: whiskey?)

Further we have theologians like Scofield following up on this vision and even changing the Bible (Scofield Bible) to further his ideas. They should go back and see what their own church was saying 50 years ago in their church publications. Things have changed drastically since then.

[TreasonousBastard]

13. Unfortunately, it's best not to argue with them...

because it's almost impossible to change their minds.

They are taking all of this from Revelation and a few quotes from Christ where he talks about his return. Many, if not most, Christians don't take the "return" all that seriously, and see both the return and Revelation as simply a metaphor for the expansion of the church.

But, for 2,000 years there have been those who see Christ's return and the rapture and all that other stuff as just around the corner, and their fondest dream is to be there when it happens. They see the endtimes as the final battle between Good and Evil and they want to be on the winning side. You can't attack that dream-- they have to see reality for themselves.

For your own peace of mind, you might take some time to read the Gospels (they don't take that long to read) with particular attention to the parables and the Sermon on the Mount. These are the essence of Christian teaching and thought. Christ spoke a lot more of beating swords into plowshares than he did of going to war in his name.

[phylny]

14. Yes, your last paragraph mirrors what I have done.

I've read the entire New Testament, and much of the old. I do not memorize verses, nor do I understand many "deep complexities" of the Bible, but the Jesus I know speaks of taking care of each other, being peaceful, loving God above all other things, and loving each other.

The convuluted interpretations of others really baffles me.

Thanks for responding.

[struggle4progress]

15. Tell them they misunderstand the point of prophecy and ask them ..

.. to reread the book of Jonah, where G-d directs Jonah to prophesy the destruction of Ninevah -- but the people of Ninevah change their hearts and the prophesy does not come true, to Jonah's great displeasure.

Then quote Isaiah 55:11 to them: So with my word from my mouth: it shall not return to me empty but shall accomplish my purpose ...

Tell them that understanding prophesy means understanding the purpose of prophecy -- NOT to tell us the future but to change us by showing what might happen ...

[Duer 157099]

16. Just ask them what part of the bible

actually says this war is part of God's plan?

Do they think it's the beginning of Armageddon? If so, that battle is initiated by the antichrist, ask them if they think Bush is the antichrist.

If they think it's just paving the way for Armageddon, ask them how they'll feel when they meet their maker and confess that they delighted in aiding the plans of His enemy, the antichrist. It'd be somewhat like egging Judas on, even if you knew that Christ had asked Judas to betray him. Ask them if they would have egged Judas on. I'll bet Jesus wouldn't look too kindly on the other desciples if he knew they assisted and condoned what Judas did, even though the betrayal was part of God's plan.

Or, if this war is an effort to secure Israel's future, remind them that the antichrist is going to eventually invade Israel, so maybe Bush's efforts in the Mid East are contrary to biblical prophecy and he's messing everything up.

Just ask them specifics and see how the story falls apart the more closely you look at it.

[DoYouEverWonder]

17. I'd ask them where in the teachings of Jesus

does he talk about any of this stuff?

They are going to have to use parts of the NT that are not attributed to Jesus to make their case and those writings have nothing to do with his teachings.

[SilentMajority08]

18. Misinterpretation

Yeah like many of the other persons who replied this said you gotta read the verses leading into and after it to really get what jesus is saying here. He says I did not bring peace but a sword meaning not that Jesus isn't the prince of peace but that his coming and the acknowledgment or disagreement of his teaching will separate family from family. Much as the position you're in. But basically if thats the verse that your family is basing their entire foreign policy ideals upon they should find another ha ha