"Congress shall make no law..."

[Orrex]

While listening to NPR's All Things Considered yesterday on the drive home, I heard this story about a woman whose husband, a National Guardsman, died in Iraq. He has been laid to rest at a veterans' cemetary near Reno, but his monument does not bear the symbol of their religion: Wicca.

At issue apparently is the fact that the Pentagon doesn't recognize this as a "real" religion, though according to the story atheism has its own symbol, as does Eckankar and some 36 other faiths.

Here's the part that baffles me: how is this not "establishing" an official military religious framework? If I die in the service of my country, how is it any of the Pentagon's business whether I claim to worship Jesus or Allah or rocks shaped like feet or nothing at all? On what possible valid basis does the State make a law respecting the establishment of religion in this regard?

Those who've read my posts here know that I'm atheist, but I can still bitch about religious discrimination, even if it doesn't affect me directly!

[spanone]

1. Apparantly our current gov't. chooses to ignore Constitution.

[TechBear_Seattle]

2. The real issue is...

regulations about what sorts of monuments, etc. can be put in a national cemetary. It would not do, for example, if a swastika or the logo of the World Church of the Creator was set up in what is essentially a national park.

There has been foot-dragging in getting the pentacle approved, yes, and that is reprehensible. But the problem is the foot-dragging, not the process for getting symbols approved for use on tombstones and other monuments in the national cemetaries.

[Eileen]

11. Which came first?

The swastika as a "religious" symbol predates the fish and the crossed lines by many centuries. It's often found among ancient Sanskrit symbols. Source Why would it not be allowed in any cemetary? The mythical Indian deities are as every bit real as any others.


Eileen

[TechBear_Seattle]

12. Regardless of its older history, the swastika has become a Nazi symbol

... And in the minds of most Americans and Europeans, remains very firmly associated with Nazi atrocities and Nazi ideology. Those religious traditions wherein the swastika is a symbol of good luck and prosperity have other, less tainted symbols to convey the same idea.

[Eileen]

14. The crossed lines symbol has a similar meaning

in many parts of the middle east and other places where it is used by those who destroy culture.

I don't see any big move to have it deamonized.

Perhaps those too ignorant to have anything other than a knee jerk reaction should better learn that the swastika symbol was co-opted for an evil purpose - just as the crossed lines has been frequently.


Eileen

[bryant69]

3. It's problemattic

There are many many religious each with their own symbol - some 36 faiths are represented, including my own and Atheism - those cover the bulk of our society - but what should be done about those outside that framework? How many symbols would be enough?

Plus, I don't know a lot about wicca, but i have the impression that there are a number of symbols that might be selected as significant? Does Wicca have one symobl that everybody who is Wiccan would want?

I see two solutions

1. No religious symbols on headstones.

2. The army hires a stone cutter, or, more reasonablly, subcontracts out to one - when they get a religion outside the 36, those who survive the deceased provide the army with a symbol they would like. The army reviews it for appropriateness, then sends it on to the stonecutting firm, who does a headstone up.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[ColdWarVet]

4. How many...

pentagrams at Arlington?

[Orrex]

6. Welcome to DU, ColdWarVet!

:hi:

I've no idea, but when I was trying to Google some background on this issue, I found several entries in various online discussion forums wherein the poster insisted that Wicca and Satanism are both recognized by the military. However, this is in direct conflict with yesterday's NPR story.

Additionally, I would bet that with a super-righteous Servant of God in the Whitehouse, there's no way that our Holy Military would recognize Satanism as a valid faith.

[BlackHeart]

5. As an atheist also

I would rather see no symbols on any of the monuments. For that matter get rid of the momuments all together. There is no reason to cry over the rotting flesh of a deseased person. If you loved that person cherish his memory not his body.

[Orrex]

7. I see your point

I wouldn't begrudge anyone else the right to grieve over the physical vessel, though. Still, that's a far cry from letting the State say what is and what is not a real religion.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

20. Makes sense

but death customs aren't so easily dispatched of. When we lose someone, we tend to reach out for customs. They can comfort. For example, I've always been "against" such "barbaric" customs such as embalming. But when my parents died, those hours I spent with their embalmed bodies were sacred and precious and I hated when I had to leave. My dad, particularly so, because when he died he was in advanced dementia. But the undertaker brought him "back" to us, with his dignity, for at least a while. And that awful way he looked in his last days was gone forever.

Then we burned them both up.

T-Grannie

[BlackHeart]

25. Nothing barbaric about embalming

it's just useless. I understand that people grieve differently, but a dead body is just a shell, your loved one isn't there.

A common comment at funerals "Doesn't he look good?" I want to respond "yeah he sure does, too bad he's dead". When I go I want to look like crap. I want to wring the last drop of life out of my body before I go.

[Evoman]

23. See, I would agree with you

On the surface, it does seem rather odd that people talk over the corpses of loved ones. I mean, if they are in heaven or whatever, they can hear you wherever you talk to them. Going to a graveyard doesnt mean they can hear you extra well.

However, I can't begrudge other people doing it. I have literally never been into a graveyard or had someone very close to me die. I have never had to mourn anyboy (Im 26). So what do I know about it...nothing. Until it happens to me, I don't know how I would react.

[Festivito]

8. How about the sex all the time religion.

Some guys in a prison belong to it, and so they must have conjugal visits with young women regularly. After all, it's their religion.

I wonder if their religious symbol would be considered pornographic. How would that look on a headstone?

Would you want to take your children there?

What does constitute a religion?

I'm really just asking.

[Eileen]

10. Religion defined!

What does constitute a religion?

I'm really just asking.

That's an easy one.

A religion is a cult with political, economic, or military power

(and a cult is a religion you don't belong to).

[Proud_Democratt]

15. (and a cult is a religion you don't belong to).

It seems to be that way, doesn't it???

[Festivito]

16. Cyclical, but cute. Does it still constitute a religion ...

...with enough donations.

[RaleighNCDUer]

9. So what's the atheist symbol? A question mark?

Ooops. No. That would be the agnostics.

[Proud_Democratt]

13. Here it is!!!!!!!

You can find it here.

[Orrex]

17. Believe it or not...

It's a stylized Niels Bohr "atom." Beats me why they chose that or which atheists were consulted, but there you have it.

[BlackHeart]

26. I'll have to ask

at our local atheist Easter service this Sunday.

[Goblinmonger]

18. Here are the Arlington

approved emblems

http://www.homeofheroes.com/gravesites/arlington/0_arlington_emblems.html

[Orrex]

19. Thanks for posting this

I didn't have much time to Google yesterday and didn't think to go right to the source.

:hi:

[RaleighNCDUer]

21. No Unification Church or Church of Scientology

They're probably arguing over which one gets the '$'.

[Zhade]

22. The irony is that atheism isn't a religion, while Wicca is.

NT!

[Strong Atheist]

24. CERTAINLY is violating the constitution. nt.