Was Jesus illegitimate?

[cynatnite]

:)

[beam me up scottie]

1. Well...

I guess he would be.

I haven't heard that term used in forever. :)

[Erika]

2. Well, immacualate conception is wholly believeable

Right?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

21. "Virgin Birth," not "immaculate conception"

"Immaculate conception" is an exclusively Catholic doctrine that says that the Virgin Mary was born without sin. (The idea was that the mother of Jesus had to be perfect.)

The doctrine that says that Jesus had no human father is called the Virgin Birth.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

36. Not a virgin. A young woman is a better translation.

And that is really pissing off the fundies.

The idea of a "virgin" birth took off in the 1500s during the council of trent, and was actually drafted in detail there. The older, closer to original texts refer to a young woman. there was no virgin birth. Except in the imaginations of the fairy tale tellers.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

37. Right, but I was just explaining the difference in the names of

the two doctrines.

These are technical theological terms (Immaculate Conception and Virgin Birth) that a lot of people get confused.

Actually, the mistranslation of the passage started with the Septuagint (the pre-Christian Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures), and since Gentile Christians came to outnumber Christians of Jewish background quite early, the Greek version of this passage was the only one most of them could understand. (Greek was the "English" of its day for the eastern part of the Roman Empire, the language used by people of different ethnic groups in communicating with one another.)

http://accurapid.com/journal/18review.htm

[Warpy]

3. You do know what the "H" in "Jesus H Christ" stands for, don't you?

Haploid.

Think about it.

Seriously, who cares about the myth? Look at his words.

Even this old atheist recognizes the Buddha nature in his teachings.

[Erika]

5. I thought the H was code

for the Hispanic name of Jesus, Jesus.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

18. Hebrew?

[philosophie_en_rose]

4. probably.

wouldn't matter to me. but it's interesting to see how some of the televangelists and freepers still judge "bastards."

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

6. It's certainly possible.

Some of his enemies said he was "born of fornication"

[rodeodance]

7. illegitimacy is a relatively new concept invented by psychology. I am

wondering what the meaning would be to be bone of a 'single mom" (another recent invention) in a time when there were no marriages.

[muriel_volestrangler]

20. 'Psychology'? Illegitimacy far predates psychology

it's a legal term, as the word itself implies, to do with rights of inheritance and such like.

[NAO]

8. Folks around Nazareth said he looked like the milkman

[Bear down under]

9. Legitimate

Legally he was the son of Mary and her husband Joseph. Yes, the Gospel of Luke claims Jesus was not Joseph's son but conceived directly and miraculously by God -- but it also says that when an angel explained the situation to him Joseph accepted the child as his own. That would have conferred legitimacy uner Roman law (which didn't accept claims of miraculous conception anyway) and there is no suggestion in the gospels that the Jewish authorities regarded Jesus as illegitimate. If they did they would surely have added it to their list of grievances against him.


BTW, the Immaculate Conception is the dogma that Mary was conceived free from Original Sin, ie the guilt inherited from Adam and Eve's sin of eating the forbidden fruit. (from Latin macula, a spot or stain.) It does not refer to the conception of Jesus without benefit of sexual intercourse.

[sutz12]

10. And

Matthew spent numerous verses tracing the ancestry from Adam through David to Joseph, who wasn't really Jesus's father, anyway. :shrug:


:)

[H2O Man]

11. Yes, of course.

The stories of his birth make that clear. A large part of the message was that all babies represent the miracle of life. The organized church, which represented the culture of death and confusion, hid this obvious meaning.

[bills]

12. Consider Jesus.

Heb 3:1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus,

Heb 12: 1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares , and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls.Consider Jesus.

All He did .He did for you.
All He is doing .He is doing for you.

Consider the word.

Heb 4: 12 For the word of God living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

No Truth, No Salvation.

Consider The Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:38 "how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

The entire earthly life is controlled by the "Holy Spirit"

Consider your ways.

Bible teaches there are 24 ways.

Hag 1:5 Now therefore, thus says the LORD of hosts: "Consider your ways!

Consider the lilies of the field.

Mt 6;28 "So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin;

Worry causes so many troubles.

Consider the works of God.

I Sam12: 24 "Only fear the LORD, and serve Him in truth with all your heart; for consider what great things He has done for you.

Give thanks to lord Jesus Christ in all circumstances.

Consider not.

Romans 4:19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah's womb.

Abraham considered not his own body nor the circumstances around him.The deadness of Sarah's womb.

II Cori 1: 20 For all the promises of God in Him Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

17. The lilies of the field

are one of my favorite scriptures. Many times I have comforted myself with how little they worry.

That, and the Beatles: let it be. Sometimes it is good to just let go.

[saltpoint]

13. The arbitrary legal term "illegitimate" is inappropriately applied to,

because it in fact overtly punishes, a baby.

It's the baby's job to be born, and once that feat is accomplished, no one, it seems to me, should be flinging around terms like "illegitimate."

I think it was some band from England... forget their name... that sang, "All you need is love."

Love, several diapers, and eventually a school worth enrolling in, and you're well on your way.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

14. Well, if you are accepting the virgin birth

as a "given" (and we have to start somewhere concrete in order to discuss this) and then use our culture's definition of illegitimate (born w/out a father) I'd say no, because Joseph married Mary before His birth.

Now, I'm not going to get into whether the story is true or not because I have no idea. It is part of the whole package, and I personally "buy" the package for reasons other than logical.

[moose65]

15. but they weren't "married" were they?

I've always thought they were "betrothed", whatever that meant in Jewish customs. Kinda like engaged, but moreso.... I dunno. So in one sense Jesus was "illegitimate" in that his parents had not been through their particular marriage ritual when he was born. Oh well, who cares? It's just a myth anyway, right? :-)

[TallahasseeGrannie]

16. I completely forgot they were just "betrothed."

I wonder if they ever got married? I assume they did, as they had more children.

So, yeah, engaged in our culture wouldn't count.

[muriel_volestrangler]

19. Matthew says he married her before Jesus was born

but "knew her not" until he was born. Luke, in the King James version, refers to her as his "espoused wife" at the time of the birth. Quite why I just bothered to look that up, I'm not sure.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

22. Matthew also says that Joseph was going to break off the engagement

quietly instead of denouncing her as a fornicator, which would have led to her being stoned to death.

[cynatnite]

23. The whole 'virgin birth' thing is strange to me...

How would anyone know that Joseph didn't bed Mary on their wedding night? Did someone ask? :shrug:

[Proud_Democratt]

24. Let me get this straight....

IF God was the father of Jesus.....AND the conception of Mary was an Immaculate-type......ANd the birth was of a virgin or "virgin birth".........then WHY would it matter if Joseph and Mary were married???

If this were true......then by bloodline, Jesus was NOT a messiah! This is ONE of the contradictions that Jews, then and now, did not accept him as a Messiah.

One of the requirements for claiming to be a Messiah was to prove direct blood lineage from King David.

[cynatnite]

25. Watched a documentary last night...'Jesus' Family'...

In it a genealogist claims to have found lineage to the house of David.

[Proud_Democratt]

26. According to the Bible...

There is direct lineage from David to Joseph, BUT also in the New Testament, there is confusion of who was Joseph's father. One gospel says Heli and another says Jacob!!!!!!!

[Proud_Democratt]

28. Which is the father of Joseph????

Luke 3:23
And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,


Matthew 1:16
And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.


So....who is who??????
With flaws like this....how can someone truthfully say that Jesus was a Messiah???

[cynatnite]

30. I never said Jesus was the messiah...

I remembered the mention on a show about the large family of Jesus. They obviously believed he was since he had so much of their support.

[Proud_Democratt]

31. This is why Judaism never accepted him as a Messiah.

he couldn't prove lineage to King David.
I guess that's why I am a nonbeliever of Christianity....too many ifs, ands, and buts.

[cynatnite]

32. christianity has little to do with my curiosity...

I'm more interested in historical Jesus.

Even if someone did prove his lineage without a doubt, it doesn't make him the messiah and probably wouldn't change a lot of minds, IMO. :shrug:

[Proud_Democratt]

34. I guess some are like children that still believe in Santa.

[Proud_Democratt]

33. Without proof that Jesus was a Messiah...

then there would be NO reason for an Imaculate Conception, nor any intervention from God.

[Proud_Democratt]

27. And, I'm sorry, your reply does not answer my skeptical question

[cynatnite]

29. It was a brief mention...

and I honestly didn't pay much attention to that aspect. I do remember it being said. I'm sorry I didn't get the specifics.

[Disturbed]

35. Mary was not descended from Eve and was...

impregnated by God. Yeah, OK. Why not believe that Budda was bron out of the side of his mother, not her vagina?