Myth that must be put to rest: Timothy McVeigh was a Christian

[ButterflyBlood]

I don't know how many times I've seen this said before here as an example of "Christian terrorism" and as proof that Christian extremists are just as violent as Islamic extremists. McVeigh was an agnostic.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/mcveigh/story/0,,504876,00.html

In his letter, McVeigh said he was an agnostic

Even this site, which is basically an expose on the Christian Identity movement, admits McVeigh was an agnostic: http://www.eyeonhate.com/mcveigh/mcveigh3.html Note the last paragraph.

And the fact is, whatever his personal beliefs, his act of terrorism was done in the name of his anti-government crusade and secular ideology. Not religion. It's like calling the IRA "Catholic terrorists".

Yes, there are examples of a handful of Christian extremists who have resorted to violence. But McVeigh is not one of them. Such faulty example should not be used.

[beam me up scottie]

1. Whatever.

And the little dude with the funny mustache wasn't christian, according to some christians.
:eyes:

[arwalden]

16. Charlie Chaplin?

:eyes: :hi:

[tocqueville]

2. On what planet do you live ?

Christian terrorism is as violent as Islamic terrorism, because it's the nature of terrorism to be violent. And the IRA were of course catholic terrorists, as much as the loyalists were protestant terrorists. The Phalange in Lebanon is a very good example of Christian terrorism, but kind of an oriental rite orthodox terrorism. Zionism is a form of Jewish terrorism and Irgun was Jewish.

The number of Christian "extremists" that have through times resorted to violence against other religions or agnostics equals or even outnumbers terrorists from other religions.

History
In Europe during the middle ages, acts that would be described as Christian terrorism in the modern definition may include the invasion and forcible religious conversion of pagan Lithuania by the Teutonic Knights in the 1100s, as well as various acts committed during the conflicts of the Reformation. However, because such events typically accompanied broader military conflicts and conflicts between sovereigns (which quite frequently involved substantial issues of traditional political warfare related only tangentially, if at all, to religion), it is sometimes difficult to precisely attribute such acts to Christian terrorism, or simply to wartime atrocities that happened to involve aspects of religious conflict.

November 5 in Great Britain is a major celebration of the foiling of the Roman Catholic inspired Gunpowder Plot in 1605 when a group of terrorists tried to blow up the Protestant English leadership at the opening of Parliament. A major part of Bonfire Night is the burning of the effigy of the bomber Guy Fawkes who was hanged, drawn and quartered for his part in the plot.

See also Protestant and Roman Catholic conflicts which resulted in terroristic acts, often on a huge scale. Reformation, Counter-Reformation, Inquisition, Thirty Years' War, Wars of the Three Kingdoms (English Civil War).

Groups or individuals that commit acts termed Christian terrorism are frequently not exclusively motivated by their beliefs about Christianity. Often, their activities correspond to pre-existing ethnic or social conflicts—for example, the Troubles in Northern Ireland, which has root causes traceable as far back as the Norman invasion of Ireland. While some of the Christian terrorist groups active today may be motivated by the prospect of converting subjects to join their faith, others have territorial/political motives for fighting. Still others have more in common with Nazi ideology than with religious ideology, and work primarily with racist ideals, such as white supremacy (see, for example, the Christian Identity movement).

In Sri Lanka, a Buddhist political party Jathika Hela Urumaya (JHU) claims that Christians attempt to forcibly convert Buddhists to Christianity.


Christian terrorism in the United States
In the United States, the most frequent examples of Christian terrorism include the intimidation of abortion clinic employees and patrons, and the murder of abortion providers by (occasionally self-professed Christian) anti-abortion extremists.

Recently the controversy over Terri Schiavo's death has caused many extremist Christians to make death threats against Schiavo's husband and Judge George Greer, who ordered the brain-damaged woman's feeding tube to be pulled. One man had planned to kidnap Mrs. Schiavo from the hospice where she was in a plan that most likely would have involved violence, but police had stopped him.

Eric Rudolph engaged in terrorist activities closely associated with Christian terrorism, such as the targeting of abortion clinics and the bombing of a gay nightclub; also, Rudolph had been suspected to be associated with the Christian Identity organization. However, Rudolph has himself denied such associations, writing that he "prefers Nietzsche to the Bible" and espousing an Atheistic philosophy.


List of Christian Terrorist Organizations
Christian Identity movement
Freedomites (also Svobodniki or Sons of Freedom, Canada, 1902-present)
Ku Klux Klan (A racist Protestant Christian organization founded during the Reconstruction period in the former Confederate States of America)
The Order (1980s-present)
Other Christian-related terror groups with nationalist motivations include:

Lord's Resistance Army (1987-present) (Uganda)
Nagaland Rebels (1948-present) (Nagaland), including:
The National Liberation Front of Tripura
God's Army (a rebel faction of the Karen ethnic minority in Burma)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

and I don't count crusades and that stuff...

who do you think you are kidding with "Yes, there are examples of a handful of Christian extremists who have resorted to violence." ?

and if Mc Veigh wasn't acting in religion's name, it doesn't change the statistics...

[Erika]

3. Hitler also appealed to the masses calling himself a Christian

Christianity is no more a religion of peace than is Islam if you identify it with the radicals of each religion.

[trotsky]

20. Unless you have some way of reading Hitler's mind...

60 years after his death, no one can know if he was "really" a Christian or not.

[Kailassa]

11. Under "Christian terrorists", you forgot the Ku Klux Klan. n/t

[ButterflyBlood]

22. There's also only a handful of Islamic extremists that did the same

The vast majority of Muslims aren't terrorists either.

I personally prefer to keep any examples to modern times, and if one wants to argue that Christianity is just as violent as Islam today, it would be nice to use examples that aren't more than 5 centuries old like the Crusades and Inquisition. However you did list several valid modern day examples in this post. And note that McVeigh was not listed.

If people want to use those examples as counter-examples, fine. They're perfectly valid, and I won't dispute any of them. But the fact is, McVeigh is not such a counter-example. And the fact that such valid counter-examples do exists, makes bringing him up even more pointless.

[enlightenment]

4. You know, Butterfly, it's generally not a great idea

to attack another group in order to protect your own - and yes, I'm assuming you consider yourself a Christian.

Okay, McVeigh wasn't a Christian -- I'll settle for sick SOB, myself.

Why try to tie his "anti-government crusade" to his "secular ideology"? What you're saying is he did what he did because he was agnostic.

Is that some sort of revenge because somebody said he was Christian?

Your reasoning is as faulty and as prejudiced as that which you oppose.

[ButterflyBlood]

21. That was not my point at all

as I pointed out in another post below.

I was never trying to imply he did what he did because he was agnostic. After all, such an equivalent act would be such as bombing a church. Rather, his ideology and cause was religious-neutral. You can be a Christian and share it, and there are many that do. You can also be non-religious and share it, as McVeigh was. But even if someone who was Christian with McVeigh's views did the bombing, it was not done in the name of Christ, but rather the extreme libertarianism.

Perhaps a valid analogy could be found in comparing Palestinean groups. Obviously there are groups that blend their nationalism with Islamic extremism, such as Hamas. However there are also decidedly secular groups, such as Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. I imagine that many members of PFLP were themselves Muslim. However, I would never cite PFLP terrorism as an example of Islamic extremism. That obviously doesn't mean their secularism is to blame, or even their cause, after all I support a free Palestine. Simply the means.

[enlightenment]

24. I think the confusion may come from your use of the term.

Down-thread, you said:
"After all, there are millions who share his views and haven't blown up anything. And I'll admit the religious fanatics usually are much worse, he's pretty much the exception."

So, who are the millions who share his views?

More importantly, which views? His crazy, whack-job views of the government - or his presumed agnosticism (since I don't know what he espoused, I'll stick with 'presumed'.)

When you juxtapose the 'religious' (religious fanatic/Christian/etc) with the 'non-religious' (agnostic/secular) you are making a comparison, even if it is inadvertent.

I get your point, I was pointing out that you laid yourself wide open with your initial statements. Your second analogy is more to the point, but it is not an accurate reflection of what you said in your OP.

Just saying . . . :)

[Nomad559]

5. I don't think he liked liberals

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/mcveigh/dawning_1.html


http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/mcveigh/misfortune_5.html

Finally McVeigh left his rent-a-cop job and the Buffalo area saying, "I gotta get out of this place, it's all liberals here." Then, early in 1993, he took off with everything he owned, and began driving around America, hoping to find some meaning in his life.

:)

[Nomad559]

6. Tim made himself right with God

http://www.lockport-ny.com/Features/McVeigh.htm

McVeigh, who was raised a Catholic but deserted his faith, had been given Last Rites by a prison chaplain, the Lockport Home Page learned shortly after the execution. The sacrament usually requires an admission of sorrow for past sins. He reportedly answered in the affirmative when told a priest was available to give him last rites after he was strapped onto a gurney in the death chamber. "He asked for it when he was on the table," said Bureau of Prisons spokesman Jeff Grondolsky. Prison chaplain Frank Roof administered the Roman Catholic sacrament of Last Rites, in which blessed oil is daubed onto the body, just before curtains opened to reveal McVeigh to the execution witnesses. Following his execution, his body was cremated and the ashes given to one of McVeigh's attorneys.

Updated Info Added 6/13

The Terre Haute Catholic pastor who had visited McVeigh several times during his prison stay there confirmed that the prisoner had received the Last Rites in the last hours. The Rev. Ron Ashmore of St. Margaret Mary Church, whose parish is located five minutes from the federal death house told the wire service, UPI: "Tim was intelligent and he knows his faith and he knew what he was asking for...While he probably didn't practice his faith publicly since high school he knows his faith - he's absolutely in heaven." UPI was quoting Ashmore in its 6/13 stories, as describing McVeigh as "a good man who did an evil thing." The pastor told UPI he was trying to make amends with everyone and that his attorney, Robert Nigh, helped him think through what he did-"it's a process that takes time." "Tim made himself right with God, and he did so even before the final anointing," Ashmore said. "But that's an ongoing process and we Catholics believe it's takes a lifetime, and Nigh said he could not successfully help Tim express words of reconciliation in an honest way.

[Kailassa]

10. It must be comforting to believe McVeigh is in heaven,

while believing that genuine atheists and agnostics who have spent their lives doing good for others will burn in hell for all eternity.

[trotsky]

15. Well wasn't that nice of the Catholic church.

Aww. McVeigh kills dozens, including children, but he gets to go to heaven.

I've never killed anything bigger than a wasp, but I'll be roasting forever. What awesome cosmic justice! Oops, did I say cosmic? I think I meant COMIC.

[NAO]

7. Torquemada WAS a Christian; Calvin and Luther too.

Timothy McVeigh was a pretty mild mannered Christian. He killed less than 200 people, which is quite tame compared to many other famous Christian Leaders/Mass Murderers such as Torquemada, Calvin and Luther.

****

Torquemada was acting in his Christian duty when he unsheathed the sword of the Church of Jesus Christ.

As told by Robert Ingersoll: "The sword of the church was unsheathed, and the world was at the mercy of ignorant and infuriated priests, whose eyes feasted upon the agonies they inflicted. Acting, as they believed, or pretended to believe, under the command of God; stimulated by the hope of infinite reward in another world -- hating heretics with every drop of their bestial blood; savage beyond description; merciless beyond conception, -- these infamous priests, in a kind of frenzied joy, leaped upon the helpless victims of their rage. They crushed their bones in iron boots; tore their quivering flesh with iron hooks and pincers; cut off their lips and eyelids; pulled out their nails, and into the bleeding quick thrust needles; tore out their tongues; extinguished their eyes; stretched them upon racks; flayed them alive; crucified them with their heads downward; exposed them to wild beasts; burned them at the stake; mocked their cries and groans; robbed their children, and then prayed God to finish the holy work in hell."

****

John Calvin, was certainly more insane and more evil than Charles Manson. Calvin lit a person on fire, on purpose, and watched him slowly roast to death. How can anyone feel anything but seething contempt for this cruel, insane, vicious madman who founded the Presbyterian Church?

As told by Robert Ingersoll: "In 1553 a man was tried at Vienna by the Catholic Church for heresy. He was convicted and sentenced to death by burning. It was apparently his good fortune to escape. Pursued by the sleuth hounds of intolerance he fled to Geneva for protection. A dove flying from hawks, sought safety in the nest of a vulture. This fugitive from the cruelty of Rome asked shelter from John Calvin, who had written a book in favor of religious toleration. Serviettes had forgotten that this book was written by Calvin when in the minority; that it was written in weakness to be forgotten in power; that it was produced by fear instead of principle. He did not know that Calvin had caused his arrest at Vienna, in France, and had sent a copy of his work, which was claimed to be blasphemous, to the archbishop. He did not then know that the Protestant Calvin was acting as one of the detectives of the Catholic Church, and had been instrumental in procuring his conviction for heresy. Ignorant of all this unspeakable infamy, he put himself in the power of this very Calvin. The maker of the Presbyterian creed caused the fugitive Serviettes to be arrested for blasphemy. He was tried. Calvin was his accuser. He was convicted and condemned to death by fire. On the morning of the fatal day, Calvin saw him, and Serviettes, the victim, asked forgiveness of Calvin, the murderer. Serviettes was bound to the stake, and the fagots were lighted. The wind carried the flames somewhat away from his body, so that he slowly roasted for hours. Vainly he implored a speedy death. At last the flames climbed round his form; through smoke and fire his murderers saw a white heroic face. And there they watched until a man became a charred and shriveled mass."

****

Martin Luther was a more hateful, ignorant, despicable anti-semite than Hitler. How this man came to be venerated is a mystery to me. I feel sick and disgusted when I read Luther's writings.

From Luther's "The Jews and their Lies": "Such a desperate, thoroughly evil, poisonous and devilish lot are these Jews, who for these fourteen hundred years have been and still are our plague, our pestilence, and our misfortune."

And more from Martin Luther, who should be credited as the true author of "The Final Solution": "Oh how they love the book of Esther, which so nicely agrees with their bloodthirsty, revengeful and murderous desire and hope. The sun never did shine on a more bloodthirsty and revengeful people as they, who imagine to be the people of God, and who desire to and think they must murder and crush the heathen. And the foremost undertaking which they expect of their Messiah is that he should slay and murder the whole world with the sword. As they at first demonstrated against us Christians and would like to do now, if they only could; have also tried it often and have been repeatedly struck on their snouts . . ."

And another gem from Luther: "Moses writes in Deuteronomy that where a city practiced idolatry, it should be entirely destroyed with fire and leave nothing. If he were living today he would be the first to put fire to the Jew schools and houses." Luther, Dr. Martin. THE JEWS AND THEIR LIES .

****

All things considered, Timothy McVeigh was a pretty mild mannered Christian. He killed less than 200 people, which is quite tame compared to many other famous Christian Leaders/Mass Murderers.

[ozone_man]

26. These are great examples.

Medieval antisemitism set the stage for the racial antisemitism that followed. Racial antisemitism started with the Catholic Church in 1492 in Spain, when Jews were declared a separate race. We can't blame the church directly for the Holocaust, but it certainly paved the way and was used to support the cause. Whether Hitler was a Christian is less important. What was important was that he knew how to make a Christian army.



Christianity was most openly violent in the medieval era, but Islam is still a medieval religion, so it is presently more intolerant and more violent than Christianity. Christianity works in more subtle ways now, like influencing the U.S. government to deny foreign aid to developing countries that includes contraception, including countries with AIDs epidemics, causing overpopulation and death on a mass scale. Or Christian end timer support for Bush's destructive environmental policies. Faith is just as deadly when it works in these more subtle ways as when it is openly violent. If the Earth dies, the game is over anyway, and fundamentalist Christians don't seem to care.

[greyl]

8. The myth is that he was a terrorist.

His attack was more specifically revenge for Waco, not terrorism.

That said, I've been known to say that he's an example of a caucasian terrorist.

[FM Arouet666]

9. What ever makes you feel better about your religion.

Yep, McVeigh couldn't be a christian, not a 'True Christian.' A TC would never commit acts of terrorism. I recall hearing the same argument about Eric Robert Rudolph, the Birmingham abortion clinic bomber, made by nationally syndicated radio host Michal Medved. When asked how a good christian like Rudolph could commit such an heinous act of terrorism, killing and injuring innocent people, Medved responded, 'Oh, but Rudolph was an atheist.' Why, he once stated that he would rather read Nietzsche than the Bible. The same author who proclaimed that 'God is dead.' Therefore, Rudolph is an atheist and the christian religion cannot be held accountable.

I was trolling around the internet looking for info on McVeigh and Rudolph and landed on this page.
http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/crime/terrorists/eric-rudolph/

It supports your supposition that McVeigh was not a christian terrorist, yet describes a person who is clearly a christian terrorist. And, as for the notion that there are only a handful of christian extremists which have resorted to violence I would suggest that you look no further than this pathetic individual.

Hey, Chimp, is that your IQ? A big fat Zero.

[ButterflyBlood]

19. Of course Rudolph was a Christian terrorist

I sure as hell won't deny that. The issue at hand is not to try to disprove any claims that there are violent Christian extremists or anything of the sort. There are plenty of valid counter-examples, of which Rudolph is one of them. My point is simply that McVeigh is not one of them. Nothing more.

As far as the dumbass in your post, the fact is the whole point of such violence and the invasion of Iraq is oil and hegemony, not religion. After all, there's really no questions that the neocons would have no problem with a government in Iraq taking over like the Saudis which outlaws all non-Islamic religions and persecutes the Christian population as long as like the Saudis, they agree to let them keep military bases there and keep selling oil. The Christian population in Iraq have basically been saying they were better off under Saddam.

[trotsky]

23. Bush said that God told him to invade Iraq.

Do you have proof that he's wrong?

[varkam]

12. Agnosticism is a claim regarding knowledge, not belief.

The agnostic position (which is one I take) holds that one does not know the veracity of theological claims. For example, a good one is "God exists". I don't know. But belief (which is the foundation upon which most theological systems have erected themselves) is something different entirely. For instance, I am an atheist. I do not believe the claim that "God exists" is a true claim. I believe it to be false (or a terrible, terrible lie - depending on your disposition). However, I also do not know whether or not I am being truthful if I assert that "God does not exist". I simply don't know. He might exist, but I'm betting that he doesn't (some people might think that's an unwise bet, as some people believe that belief in God does no harm - or at least does less harm than not believing in God if he does exist. But that's a different story).

So McVeigh claiming that he was an agnostic doesn't automatically mean he didn't buy into the Xtian doctrine.

on edit: I think faster than I type

[Kailassa]

13. A statement that god exists is not necessarily a lie.

You indicate you are not certain that there is no god, but you believe it to be false, or even a terrible, terrible lie when a person states that god does exist.

Everyones' experiences are different, so if you accept that there may be a possibility there is a god, it is illogical to be so certain that nobody has had experiences that prove to them that god is real. Therefore, although I agree it does not make sense to necessarily believe another person's statements when they are based on an experience you have not shared, it does not make sense to regard that person as a liar, either.

The problem with any type of belief is when anyone gets an urge to tell others they should believe the same thing. We each have the right to put together our own experiences in our own way.

[varkam]

28. I was joking about the "lie" bit..

If someone says that they "know" God exists, that's fine. I just contend they haven't thought very hard about what it means to know something. We do have a right to put together our own experiences in our own way, and if your experiences have led you to a belief in God, then that's fine. I'm not saying that you are incorrect in your belief, or that you should believe otherwise. But to say that belief lends itself to epistemic certainty is a confusion of the difference between knowledge and belief.

I think it was Anaximedes that postulated the idea of the infinity principle. In ancient Greece, the thinkers were concerned with a search for the "arke", or source, of everything. Some had some pretty good ideas (e.g. fire, earth, water), but Anaximedes held that nothing inside the universe could have been the arke. For example, water couldn't have been the arke, as something would've had to made water as well. In other words, the arke has to exist outside of the realms of the universe - or else it's just subject to infinite regress (and what made that? and what made that? and what made that? and so on...).

So if there is a God, I would assume that he did create the universe. However, if he did, then he/she/it must exist outside of the universe - or else be subject to infinite regress. So if there is a God, and if God exists outside of the universe, then that is completely beyond the realm of our cognitive abilities. We can not find God on the "knowledge" plain, as it is impossible for us to do so.

That's why I say anyone who says they "know" God exists hasn't thought very hard about what it means to know something. Either that, or they're fundamentalists.

[Kailassa]

31. You are arguing this from a position of reasoning and conjecture.

You are still not considering the possibility that a person may have had actual experiences that prove the reality of an entity beyond this world. (The word god, by the way, is something I only use as a shorthand label for an idea, and it's a bad one because religions have left so many assumptions and stupidities attached to the word. However it's only 3 letters long, and that makes up for a lot. ;-))

We all have different experiences in this world. I don't believe earth has been visited by aliens in flying saucers, but if another person says they have had experiences that prove these things to them, I cannot assume they are mistaken, because I have no way to know that did not happen. However I would have to be pretty naive in order to change my mind on such things just on the basis of experiences I have had no part of.

So I fully support your position as an agnostic, and will not tell you my experiences because I see no reason why you should believe them. Individual experience teaches different people different things, and I believe we should, while reasoning and arguing with each other in a friendly way to learn from each other, each be faithful to our own reasoning and experiences. But we need to keep open minds, and not make the assumption that things outside our own experiences and belief systems are not possible.

As for god being a creator and therefore existing outside the universe, I don't see it that way at all. I visualise god as a childlike entity that somehow came into existance, not as a wise and perfect creator. I can imagine this entity learning to create out of boredom, just finding ways to make things to play with. And with the god I imagine originally being all that there was, everything created is created out of god. An urge for companionship could drive this cosmic child into finding ways to split itself or to split reality, perhaps creating alternite universes to give the impression of many beings. So I see god as part of everything, a grubby rock or a loved person are equally god in my eyes, so there is no need to look outside the universe.

I'd be surprised if quantum science does not keep coming up with more and more findings that question the conventional reality of our world. We are going to need open minds just to cope with the paradoxes that science throws in our path.

[trotsky]

14. That's true.

We don't have to point to McVeigh, there are more than enough other examples of Christian terrorists. Many, many, many thousands of "handfuls."

But I will echo a sentiment upthread - you'll generally find it a stupid move to defend your group by bashing another. Certainly not by blaming "secular ideology" - after all, it's that evil secular ideology that gave you total freedom of religion in this country. So you can get bent for that comment.

[ButterflyBlood]

18. I was not blaming secular ideology for anything

After all, there are millions who share his views and haven't blown up anything. And I'll admit the religious fanatics usually are much worse, he's pretty much the exception.

Just pointing out he was not a "Christian terrorist".

[Goblinmonger]

17. Let's see

He was raised Catholic. He died Catholic. Sure he may have been "agnostic" in the middle (though what a letter from a crazy son of a bitch is really worth), but he sure came and went Christian.

[charlie]

25. Not an agnostic

At least, Tim the Bomber wasn't. The two Buffalo journalists have letters from the late 90s where he professes agnosticism, they cite his avoidance of Sunday services in the Army and a youthful claim that "science is my religion" as further proof. But, his own words less than a year after Oklahoma:

TIME: Are you religious?

MCVEIGH: I was raised Catholic. I was confirmed Catholic (received the sacrament of confirmation). Through my military years, I sort of lost touch with the religion. I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs.

TIME: Do you believe in God?

MCVEIGH: I do believe in a God, yes. But that's as far as I want to discuss. If I get too detailed on some things that are personal like that, it gives people an easier way alienate themselves from me and that's all they are looking for now.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,109478,00.html

Doesn't make him a Christian Bomber or a God Bomber, but he wasn't an agnostic. That came later.

[NMMNG]

27. "A handful of Christian extremists"

Ku Klux Klan
Christian Identity
Aryan Nations
Phineas Priesthood


Somebody has a mighty big hand....

[varkam]

29. Indeed...

that's a whooole lotta fingers :)

[Radio_Guy]

30. Louis Farrakhan said he was

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPrint.asp?Page=\Nation\archive\200109\NAT20010917c.html

(CNSNews.com) - Minister Louis Farrakhan has warned President Bush that declaring war on terrorism could "trigger the war that would end all wars, the war of Armageddon."

<snip>

He then accused the American government and media of unfairness towards Muslims. He noted that convicted Oklahoma City Bomber Timothy McVeigh professed to be a Christian, yet the U.S. did not fear all Christians.

"Even though his crime was the most horrific committed up until that time, no one said Christian Timothy McViegh, they just said Timothy McVeigh," he noted. He called McVeigh's actions "un-Christian like" and he declared the attacks last week on the US to be "un-Muslim like."

He said Muslims throughout the world have no quarrel with the citizens of America, only it's foreign policy. He believes these are policies "that the American people know nothing about."

<snip>

Louis Farrakhan would not say that unless he had his facts straight.