God!!!

[Mythsaje]

I'm tired of religion. There, I said it. I'm tired of those who claim to have inside information as to the nature of the universe to which the rest of us aren't privvy...or don't believe. I'm tired of those who pretend that they're somehow better because they think some higher power has revealed to them (or us) the truth behind the illusion.

Fuck that.

We can't expect some higher power to come down and fix all the things we've broken. The reason our world and lives are fucked up is because WE humans fucked them up. And we were given (by nature or some mysterious creator) the brains, talent, and manipulative tools to fix a lot of them. If we can set aside our greed and lust for power long enough to bother. Disease? We can take care of that. Hunger? Ditto.

If we stop arguing about whose God is better and what country suppoedly deserves his favor the most.

We have the tools, the intelligence, and the talent. We just don't have the drive.

We hand our power over to a bunch of fools who think there's some transcendent spirit that's going to come down and wave his hand and fix everything and then wonder why the world continues to be fucked up.

Stupid.

I know I'm supposed to give lip service to other peoples' beliefs and, for the most part, I do. I DO respect those who understand that this is our world and we're responsible for the welfare of our fellow humans. Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, and god knows how many other "prophets" have said so. And some of their followers listen and understand. Good for them. The ones who don't are the ones that raise my ire.

God's not going to fix everything. As long as we allow these dickheads to act as though that's what they expect, they're going to stumble around like a drunk troll in a glassmaker's shop, busting things and expecting someone off-stage to fix it all.

But you can't blame infant cancer on God. You can't expect him to wave his hand and fix it. All these exist because they're OUR problems. Even if some deity exists, all of our troubles are just that...OUR troubles. We were given the tools we have to fix them ourselves.

Science shouldn't be used to find better and more efficient ways to kill one another. That's NOT what it's for. We're not given the tools and talent to allow some folks to make obscene profits and live in houses so large that they have to hire dozens of servants just to clean them.

People can only LIVE in one house, and drive one automobile at a time. Why should some folks have ten cars and five houses, while some people sleep in cardboard boxes in alleys and under bridges? Because "God" likes it that way?

Nonsense. It's because we are entirely missing the point.

We can fix all of this, as long as we understand that it's OUR job. Taking care of one another...not trying to acquire as much shit as we can before we die.

Our troubles are human troubles, caused by human mistakes, and fixable by human ingenuity. I truly believe that.

And before you ask...I'm not an atheist, or even truly agnostic. I'm a pantheist/humanist. Or humanist/pantheist. I think the universe is a wonderous place, and possibly the only thing that deserves to be recognized as God. But, if this is indeed the case, each and every one of us, and every creature that walks, crawls, or swims, and even the trees through which the wind is blowing right now, and the wind itself, are ALL part of God and are therefore sacred.

"That which you do to the least of these" and all that.

"God" is too big a concept for anyone to have a handle on. Bible or no. Koran or no.

Science is what we call the act of trying to understand God. It's slow, and sometimes confusing. But it seeks to understand. It questions. It reveals. It learns. It grows.

Carl Sagan, in his book Contact, suggested a little something I found very intriguing. Maybe WE (intelligent beings) exist in order to someday explain God to itself.

For, as far as we know, and as far as we can prove, WE are the minds and hands of God. Not just us, but anything out there in the great unknown that can also think and build.

If this is the case, we've been mighty irresponsible deities, haven't we?

[shenmue]

1. Pretty good

:applause:

[Skittles]

2. thank you

I am sick of it too

[mrcheerful]

3. Now you went and done it, you questioned the invisible mans power

and you are saying god isn't santa that will bring you everything you want. You know I've never understood any of this religious dogma, I was told we can only pray for gods will to be done, he will revel his will when he's ready for man to know his will, yet theres people out there that not only say they know gods will but also if your a good little boy or girl, he will grant you gifts of riches. I will never understand where one group says all gods plans are laid out for all to see clear as day if you read his book. Then along comes another group that says the bible is like a big jig saw puzzle and you have to figure out what fits where and what needs to be thrown out. Then you got a third group out there who says take the third letter of the first sentence then take the fifth letter of the 23 sentence, then take letters here there and you can find hidden messages from god. None of this makes sense as the book in use is so corrupted by man and his desires for power and riches That who knows whats truth whats myth and whats stolen from other religions.

[Ecumenist]

4. Mythsaje

The problem is neither God nor what He stands for. It's religion, Dogma that people rape, pillage, kill and enslave , all the while trying to force their idea of what God is.. Most people cannot separate man made things, Churches, denomination,etc. Even if one believes in God, the Bible makes it quite clear that we have of choice and when people use God to justify each and ever awful thing they do to one another, well it's just a sickening crime.

how many have been murdered, raped, stolen from, etc and told it was okay because it was done in the name of God? Usually when you call the perpetrators on the carpet to prove where in the Bible it says that it's right to mistreat their fellow man, they never can. At least, not without twisting the so called Scripture so much that it would be unrecognisable to anyone outside of a crack den.

No, Mythsaje, God isn't the problem. It's the hypocritical, low down, lying and just plain evil human being that are every bit and grain as fallible as the rest of us. If people would just start to seek God in his truest form, without the binds of dogma, doctrine and philosophy, this world would a much better place, trust me..

[Mythsaje]

5. I think the problem lies in claiming to understand

that which we CANNOT understand. Not yet, anyway, and maybe not ever. We have to recognize that it's too complex an issue for us, to accept that there are things we do not and cannot know, and move on. God is, for the moment, beyond our comprehension. God is not a white-bearded old man hiding somewhere in the sky. God is beyond that. God is All That Is...and we can barely grasp a fraction of a fraction of what that might be.

God isn't the problem. WE are.

[Ecumenist]

6. Exactly

This may sound contradictory but God is far more complex than we can understand and a far sight more simple. I think the humans over complicates God. If we just accepted who He is and treat our fellow humans with the respect and love we're supposed to, if we would just steward the earth and everything in it, we'd be a damn sight better off.

[Mythsaje]

7. The bible condones slavery, infanticide, and a host

of other evils. It's not twisting. It's placed right before us in various sections of the Old Testament where God allegedly tells his chosen people to commit atrocities--or commits them himself...

The bible is a book, no more sacred than any other book. I think that reliance on the bible for guidance is a MAJOR part of the problem.

[Random_Australian]

8. Indeed. In studying the bible, the first thing one must realise,

is that like all other books, it contains a set of information, and when we read it it interacts with our minds.

There isn't enough information in that many pages of text to provide anything like what we need to create a perfect society. (And it would seem that it does not, or at least has not, create any particularly good society, nor one in which a majoirty of people read and follow the liberal teachings of the bible.)

So we must take responsibility for ourselves and fix everything we can ourselves. Because unless there is some divine intervention, the bible itself cannot be enough.

[gerrilea]

12. Can I say this...without being shot down...?

I also learned at the same jesuit College, the history of the Bible...yup...a jesuit priest had us read the whole thing then discuss it...in class...

How and why something became part of the bible and the belief system in place at the time...

I was an eye-opener for me...I never read the bible before that class...I was raised Catholic, as I said in another post...we were taught to accept what the priest said the bible said it meant...crazy...I know...

The bible is and foremost...a history book of the Jewish people...the old testament that is...

And there is only one...I repeat...one thing in the entire bible that quotes God verbatim...that one thing is....drum roll please...THE 10 COMMANDMENTS....THAT'S IT...

Oh...yet if you believe that Jesus is the Son Of God and therefore God, then the only other thing that is "verbatim" is the prayer..."THE OUR FATHER"...

EVERYTHING ELSE IS HEARSAY...WRITTEN BY MAN...FOR MAN...TO CONTROL MAN...PERIOD....

God didn't say the things people claim he/she did...man said it...For any man to know the will of god is crazy and blasphemy...by the bibles own standards...


Those preachers and religious leaders that equate the bible as "the word of god" and therefore god...are...IN MY OPINION... committing "idolatry"...


and are...in fact...heritics...the 10 commandments were/are pretty clear on this...there isn't anything in the 10 commandments that gives an exception to killing...

Thou shall not kill...

oh, wait...with the exception of your Gov't in the course of fighting a war...in "MY NAME"..I didn't get the memo, when did God put out a "revised" edition on the 10 commandments...?

There's alot in the bible that God didn't say but people keep thinking he did.


They worship the bible as god...missing the whole point...on the one thing we know He/She DID TELL US...IN THOSE SIMPLE RULES....

[Mythsaje]

14. It's a good point...

And, as I've said before... Like most religions, it all boils down to one simple statement. "Don't be an asshole."

The quality of our life depends more on our relationships with our neighbors, with other people, than an imagined relationship with a transcendent deity. Treating others with respect should be a sacred duty...maybe the ONLY sacred duty.

[gerrilea]

15. Yup...but it's up to "us"...I suspect that "the powers that be"...wouldn't

have the masses to exploit though...my goodness...if we treated each other with respect...respect in working wages, conditions...respect for "others beliefs"...ooooh...there wouldn't be any wars anymore...NO MORE MONEY....

If we respected each other in their sex, religion, place of origin...The "powers that be" can't have that...they wouldn't allow us to be kind to one another...they would find some way to "divide and conquer"...

"They" wouldn't have any power(s)...period...this world would be "Eden"...

[Proud_Democratt]

20. The Torah is based on the first 4 books only.

[hedgehog]

21. 5 Books

[Proud_Democratt]

22. Thanks....lost count for some odd reason.

[gerrilea]

9. Ummm...can I say this....Ummmmm.....AMEN! Oooo, I did say it.....

He goes again, AMEN to that!



O8)


I've believed almost the same thing for...a very, very, very long time...in my very, very short life of 41 years....

The Universe could/would be God...to explain "all knowing..." is arrogant on our parts...

I wrote a philosophy paper 20 years ago in College just on this very thought...I went to a jesuit College here in Buffalo...and it was/is a liberal College...where God forbid...they taught you how to think critically...and independently...not like today...Liberal Colleges are now considered....EVIL....oooooh....

What if, as you quoted, Carl Sagan, that we are here to explain God...

I too equated God with the universe...with everything in it...you, me, trees, stars...ants...everything...

My thoughts at the time went on to point out God's signature on the universe...His Copyright logo...so to speak...and...for us to find...and we did...through science...And I drew on scientific facts and philosophy and combined the two into my own beliefs...my understanding of it all...I know, I know, I know...it sounds pretty arrogant...but I did it anyways...

I contemplated the very nature of God Himself...and the Universe we exist in...

It goes like this...most have heard of the trinity of God...Father, Son, & Holy Ghost...Okay...my bias at the time...was...being raised Catholic....anyways...

God's Copyright logo is/was for me...the basic foundation of the physical universe...the basic elements that make up what we know as the physical universe boils down to 3 components...comprised in the structure of the atom...Neutron, Proton, Electron...

Father, Son, Holy Ghost = Neutron, Proton, Electron...and the subsequent attributes of these seemed similar in description...

Now, we don't have to go smaller than that...(like leptons, etc., etc.)without those three elements...the physical universe we know cannot exist...period...

I went a bit further, at the time the most recent reliable data from astronomy was a "peculiar" oddity that the "scientists" couldn't explain...maybe they have now...I don't know or haven't heard...

Under certain circumstances, unknown why, a gamma ray disappears and an electron "magically" appears... And the reverse occurred, but being that the "evidence" could only be shown "after the fact" and through mathematical calculations...We can't actually see with our eyes something that small...we only know by experiments and such....the supercollider's...

My point, philosophically/scientifically speaking, was this...science was implying...that physical matter was changing from light(gamma rays) to physical form...electrons...

Remember that "matter cannot be created or destroyed" it only changes form...

I suggested that the changing of matter from light and back again was or could be "our goal"...What if God had a thought(light energy) powerful enough to "create" matter(electrons)...

God, in effect, created (thought=light=matter=physical universe=life) life out of light...or with a thought....

The big bang equaling the biblical creation..."let there be light"

It seemed to me, at the time, that science was proving God, but I know there are logical fallacies here...The Universe could just exist...it doesn't need a beginning or end...it could just be...period...no need for anyone to put it in motion...I know this fact...

Life could just be a "normal function" of this universe we exist in...

But I was young and idealistic...

What if our purpose(as preachers say the bible says) is to be Godlike and create life? We do now, through a physical process...we know this as...ummmm....sex...pretty basic...but what if our ultimate goal or purpose was to create life from our own thoughts...as God...

Maybe in a few million, million years of evolution...but "what if"....ooopsss... I said it...evolution...

God could have created the universe then "bowed out"...leaving us to figure it out on our own...maybe God when on a vacation...after all the work of creating...


My Philosophy teacher said that Saint Augustine said almost the same thing...go figure...I never read his thoughts...and still haven't...I didn't want to be "corrupted" by other's points of view or opinions...

As for your conclusions, we have been very irresponsible "deities"...but we are young yet...I still have some faith...somedays...in "us"...hope we learn before it's too late...

[Mythsaje]

13. The "Keys of Creation."

Life, Matter, and Energy.

Science may give us all of them. We are beginning to understand the first key now. Genetics and genetic engineering.

The second key is nanotechnology, which can be merged with the first key.

The third key is the one that eludes us.

Again, a trinity.

[NMMNG]

10. This post kicks butt!

:applause:

[Mythsaje]

11. Thanks Buffy...

I wanted it posted in the GD for a reason, but it got relegated to the Religion folder almost instantly.

I'll probably end up cleaning it up (I pounded it out very quickly and didn't bother to edit) and putting in on my blog.

[Proud_Democratt]

16. This is great!!!!!

I'm tired of xtian teachings.....they ALWAYS say "Jesus said this...or God said that.."
WHAT HAVE THEY SAID in the last 2000 years??? War? Pestilence??

[GeorgeGist]

17. Those who claim that religion is necessary or sufficient...

to believe in God cannot possibly understand God.

[bloom]

18. "If we can set aside our greed and lust for power long enough..."

There are people of various religions who use their concept of "God" to inspire them to try to make the world better on "God's" behalf.

So to that extent "God" can be useful. If "God" means to people "that which inspires a person to try to live better".

Non-religious people can have other things that inspire them.

And I also agree that if people think that "God" is going to fix the world for them that they are sadly mistaken.

----------

As far as "If we can set aside our greed and lust for power long enough..."

I see part of the problem as being people want OTHERS to have a strong sense of morality (like the Republican politicians) - but don't want anyone else to have any expectations of them. And they don't necessarily want to have any expectations of themselves, either. Libertarians, for instance.

I think we should be able to come to some agreement on basic values. And I think that such a thing is useful.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

19. Stop reading my mind.

I'm serious. ;) ;)

I've always felt this way about organized religion. :D

:yourock:

From one spiritualist/pantheist/satanist/agnostic to another,

WIMR